Archie and the target

[Kogan Style]

Archie's shoot attack talks about target an enemy model to do damage. Then it talks about placing a corpse marker next to the target.

Can you target a friendly model, cause no damage and place a corpse marker as result (discarding an upgrade/corpse marker in the process) 

I feel like the target must remain  consistent throughout the attack; so in order to declare the attack the target must be an enemy, you do damage and then place a marker. is this right?

 

 

[santaclaws01]

20 minutes ago, Kogan Style said:

But is that consistent with other actions which treat targets differently depending on friendly/enemy status.

I can think of only Nicodem's Decay/Rigor Mortis which explicitly spells out an either or effect depending on criteria (Friendly Undead being the criteria) Archie's doesn't, so reading the sequence of events through:

Discard upgrade or corpse marker within 3"

Target enemy model suffers damage (if successful)

Place corpse marker b2b with the target. 

As much as I'd like to get a free corpse marker for a 0 ss upgrade with no negative (other than loss of upgrade and 1 'free' ap) I don't believe the  intent of the action is to allow you to target a friendly model to obtain it.  

Nicodem is the only model that has an attack that behaves differently based on who it targets. It is however consistent with how every action that has a targeting restriction is worded, and is further backed up by question #108 in the faq. 108) Can Pandora take the Self Harm Action against a model without a z Attack? (Same question for Self Loathing and y Attacks). Yes. The Attack would simply be unable to deal damage. Self Harm selects a z Attack on the target and applies the damage, but does not require the target to have a z Attack. Attacks that require the target have a certain trait in order to target are generally worded, “Target model with a z Attack…” Self Harm is not worded in this way.

[santaclaws01]

No, "Target enemy model" is a targeting restriction for enemy models only.

[solkan]

39 minutes ago, Kogan Style said:

But is that consistent with other actions which treat targets differently depending on friendly/enemy status.

I can think of only Nicodem's Decay/Rigor Mortis which explicitly spells out an either or effect depending on criteria (Friendly Undead being the criteria) Archie's doesn't, so reading the sequence of events through:

Discard upgrade or corpse marker within 3"

Target enemy model suffers damage (if successful)

Place corpse marker b2b with the target. 

As much as I'd like to get a free corpse marker for a 0 ss upgrade with no negative (other than loss of upgrade and 1 'free' ap) I don't believe the  intent of the action is to allow you to target a friendly model to obtain it.  

How do you conclude that Archie's action is written the same as Rigor Mortis?  Where's the "If the target is a ..." clause in Archie's action?

For Decay, you're ignoring the fact the order is backwards between the two.  And I wonder if you're playing it wrong.  It says "Target suffers 2/2B/3B.  Friendly undead models reduce all damage suffered from this Attack to 0 and then heal 2 damage."  If Decay target a friendly undead model, the first sentence still happens--you still perform a damage flip and so you may place blast markers.   When you apply the damage, whether it's a blast or not, you do so following the second sentence's instructions.  In other words, you may simultaneously heal multiple undead models and inflict damage on things that aren't friendly undead.

For the second and third sentences of Atchie's action:  "Target enemy models suffers 3/3/4 damage.  Place a Corpse Marker in base contact with the target."  

If you replace the second "target" with the word "it" the meaning of those two sentences doesn't change, but it would read terrible enough to cause English majors to go to war.  

[Kogan Style]

But is that consistent with other actions which treat targets differently depending on friendly/enemy status.

I can think of only Nicodem's Decay/Rigor Mortis which explicitly spells out an either or effect depending on criteria (Friendly Undead being the criteria) Archie's doesn't, so reading the sequence of events through:

Discard upgrade or corpse marker within 3"

Target enemy model suffers damage (if successful)

Place corpse marker b2b with the target. 

As much as I'd like to get a free corpse marker for a 0 ss upgrade with no negative (other than loss of upgrade and 1 'free' ap) I don't believe the  intent of the action is to allow you to target a friendly model to obtain it.  

[Fetid Strumpet]

Quick question in regards to this. I'm still of the opinion that compared to pretty much all the other 13SS models Archie is pretty much garbage for the majority of resser masters. Especially considering how our point costs work out, fitting in a 13SS model is very tough anyway. I'm still trying to prove myself wrong however. For some reason I'm blanking on a rules interaction. 

Archie does, or does not have to actually hit the enemy model with his Sh attack to place the corpse marker?

 

1) He targets an enemy, discards an upgrade, misses, and therefore does not get to place a corpse marker.

2) He targets an enemy, discards an upgrade, misses, but still gets to place a corpse marker.

 

My impression, due to the order of the wording is that it is option 1, correct?

[Bengt]

3 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Quick question in regards to this. I'm still of the opinion that compared to pretty much all the other 13SS models Archie is pretty much garbage for the majority of resser masters. Especially considering how our point costs work out, fitting in a 13SS model is very tough anyway. I'm still trying to prove myself wrong however. For some reason I'm blanking on a rules interaction. 

Archie does, or does not have to actually hit the enemy model with his Sh attack to place the corpse marker?

 

1) He targets an enemy, discards an upgrade, misses, and therefore does not get to place a corpse marker.

2) He targets an enemy, discards an upgrade, misses, but still gets to place a corpse marker.

 

My impression, due to the order of the wording is that it is option 1, correct?

I agree on 1. The default assumption for text in the main body of an action is that it only happens if the action succeeds. Exceptions being if it's a requirement to take the action (e.g. the first sentence of Archie's), modifies the duel (e.g. a ) or explicitly happen anyway (e.g. the push on Mei Feng's kick).