End of year thoughts for the Guild

[Tris]

As I find the topic in the TT and Neverborn sub-forums quite interesting, I thought we could start something similar here (and claim all the reward for inventing it afterwards )

-> so, where do you guys see the Guild with all the new toys from books 3 and 4?

 

I think Guild got maybe the biggest boost with an in-faction completely new way to play through Nellie and her entourage, overall great new models (Witchling Thralls, Mounted Guards, useful Emissary) and the better part of the 2 player starter box (even though Orderlies seem very useless next to McCabes Hounds and the new Field Reporters...).

Not to forget the great new general upgrades the faction needed for so long - a debt to the guild and numb to the world are just great

 

So i would say, nowadays Nellie, McCabe, Hoffmann, Perdita and Sonnia are all competitive options, with Lady J being a little cornercase, McMourning is good but maybe not everyones taste and Lucius` the one who got all the new toys but still needs something, maybe 2017 will somehow be his year^^

 

What are your thoughts about the Guild as a faction, any complaints, are you pleased with the new stuff or is there room for more?

 

Feel free to add anything you like, this one is intended for discussion

 

[JDAntoine]

Just started this year so I have a very limited view on the Guild or in the sence that I know where they came from competatively (good or bad).

What I do see and experience is that Wave 3 was wonderful, I obviously like the Brutal Emissary because of it's looks but it doesn't underpreform with anybody. While certainly not being mandatory for every Master. What I do really like about it with Perdita is that it gives a very good anti-swarm tool, which synergizes very well with the assassination tool Perdita can be.

Sonnia still is as powerful as ever, no massive changes there and for Lady J I think Wave 3 can be a massive game changer. By large because I have faith in the tarpity-ness of Lady J with Badge with Guild Marshal Recruiter and in general what the GMR does for the Judge aswell, that trio seems very potent and very fast. The fact that the GMR can also make someone a Guild Marshal is a massive plus for me also.

Then there is Nellie, who I can't wait to have but perhaps even more importantly, we recieved Field Reporters who are clear cut, death cheap, scheme runners supreme (or at least for our standards). 
I have the secret hope that Wave 5 will include more Guardsman synergies, or even a Master summonning them (limited). My current top 3 of the newer releases would be:

1. Field Reporters
2. Brutal Emissary
3. Guild Marshal Recruiter

A lot of the other models are also very awesome but don't instantly feel like massive game changers. Obviously Nellie is also a massive game changer but as a Master we should only expect that  

[Gnomezilla]

Ripples of Fate made me very happy because the patch models were mostly so very targeted and work as intended. Not just for Guild, either, but Guild is what we're here for, so.

Locally, all Guild needs is smarter players.

[Tris]

21 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

Locally, all Guild needs is smarter players.

I intend to work on that, locally, and dedicate the next months to playing Guild myself - let's see how I fare^^

[trikk]

I`m most hyped about:

Phiona Gage, because she delivers every game (I started using her with Sonnia now)

DMR, as I really like the GM fluff, but I feel like are pretty mediocre rulewise. 

Thralls as Lucius gets some love.

 

I can`t force myself to use Brutal Emissary outside of Hoffman as I feel min damage 2 for a 10SS model is not enough.

I see a lot of people use for Grimwell but he`s usually dead pretty quicky and Lobotomy without Focus isn`t very good. He has  to disengaging strikes with Ml 7 but he`s pretty easy to kill.

I also can`t get the reporters to work and go with the watcher instead.

[Ozymandias79]

27 minutes ago, trikk said:

I can`t force myself to use Brutal Emissary outside of Hoffman as I feel min damage 2 for a 10SS model is not enough.

I see a lot of people use for Grimwell but he`s usually dead pretty quicky and Lobotomy without Focus isn`t very good. He has  to disengaging strikes with Ml 7 but he`s pretty easy to kill.

Try the Brutal Emissary with McCabe.  He gets one of McCabe's upgrades for free (and since it didn't start on a Master can be used for Show of Force), and even though he's min damage 2, if you can position him right you can potentially target several enemy models.  

For Grimwell, I've just started using him, and have had some success with Nellie.  A fast Grimwell can focus, nimble, then use Lobotomy.  In one game, I had him one-shot two different models for 10 damage each.  And since Nellie can give attacks out of activation, I've had success using him to finish off models and with research grant once had I think 9 soulstones.  Nellie can push the model 5", then give the attach to Grimwell, who finishes them off and gets a soulstone.  Brutal.

I have yet to try out Mounted Guard (need to finish putting the Wild Ones box together), and only tried out Witchling Thralls during the beta (and they were brutal).  So for me I'm more looking forward to 2017 to try out all the new toys.

[Swordkitten]

Shooting people with Brutal Emissary is fairly low on my list of priorities. the Walk duel aura is big enough to hit a chunk of the opposing crew, and anyone nasty can be boxed and unburied next turn at a far-away scheme marker dropped by a low-cost scheme runner. The Wk 6 gives a lot of mobility as well.

Most of the Conflux auras give an alternate 0 and another boost. He can make a target burning without needing line of sight for Sonnia, engage an enemy without being randomised for Perdita, carry Lady J up the field safely, or be Power Looped in for Df 6/Sh 6 fun for other constructs.

There's very few crews I don't take him in.

[Tris]

Oh I love burying an enemy model for the good of two turns with the emissary and let them out again, completely out of position^^

Or bury my own stuff to keep it safe on top of that potentially insane reposition, reposition as in 'Executioner in your face' for example - even though it's sometimes 'just' so that another model can get me my vp more easily

Agreed that he's also really cool with McCabe, that secondary upgrade thrower is very useful, and like every model he just get's insanely better with his special upgrades, getting even harder to shift as he's already pretty resilient with his armor and htk, and that is on top of his aura which not only potentially slows the enemy, but also heals your models

- so I feel like he's just an overall useful model with a lot of possible tricks, if you decide to take it, but by no means an autotake at 10 points.

 

Phiona is superb, mostly because of transparency, as it's pretty darn efficient to get your scheme markers down while hitting stuff with the pickaxe^^

 

The Witchling Thralls are insane (McCabe reactivate anyone ), finally the resilient and hard hitting minions we needed, also a non  rg 8 cast, I have the feeling we were lacking that before.

 

I'm looking forward to try the Mounted Guards, their 'with me' thing looks pretty cool, we actually got quite cool stuff with a charge of 7+

 

Alison Dade also looks really tempting, but I need to actually play her, just too much text to get the feel for her just by reading ....

 

 

So as I stated at the beginning - I think it has been a good year for the guild, and I'm looking forward to see how it all comes together in 2017, when the changes start to take effect in the bigger part of the community

 

[JDAntoine]

I feel nothing is really an auto-thake at this point. Even Guild Austringers will have to make some room if your Scheme heavy set up is required and generally the prime reason for me to thake the Austringers was because of the interactions it could have with oppossing Scheme runners, being rather well able to eliminate them by themselves.

For me the Brutal Emissary never was not worth it's investment  but I totally agree that he remains very much optional. If you want acces to a big beater he certainly delivers, even with a low weak damage output. Phiona Gage, like expected from Henchmen is also very cool. 

What I do find suprising is how well you like the Witchling Thrall but seem to have a slight dislike for the Emissary, not certain if that's true or not but I think both have their pros and cons.
- Witchling Thrall has some fantastic damage and Cg but still that Wk 5 that's commonly seen in the Guilld and one of the weaknesses faster opponents can and will prey upon. Obviously Jank the Chain helps somewhat in that aspect but you'd still need a Wk 6+ model to make some fantastic use out of it. Aetheric Blast is very cool but at a significant lower damage track as the Emissary, still Ca though, certainly worth something.
- Brutal Emissary offers some fantastic Master synergy and has a Wk 6 that certainly fills gaps for 'push to friendly' options. Other than that with a Sh 8, Ml 3 and Sh 2 with a build in trigger on 4" I think that it's very capable with simply said every Master out there. But the one thing that makes a very huge difference for me is that the Upgrades are build into his cost and because of that it's easy to find him expensive on first sight but he comes with Upgrades that in my opinion are 'worth' 2SS with ease. 

My conclusion on them both is that if your looking for high damage output in a single spot, the Witchling Thrall will do a nice role for you. If your looking for multiple damages in a 4" circle around the Brutal Emissary there is very little we could rely upon other than masters. Their survivability is very comparable, their movements are very comparable. One requires Master attention, the other gives Masters attention. 

• For the likes of Sonnia, Lucius, McCabe and Nellie I'd prefer the Witchling Thrall, by large because they come with build in anti-swarm tactics by themselves due to either blasts, fast, free hits or reactivations. So the 'assassination' tactic the Witchling Thrall offers fills in one of their weaknesses. 
• For the likes of Lady J, Perdita, McMourning, Hoffman, I'd prefer the Brutal Emissary, by large because they come with 'assassination' tactics by themselves due to dealing very high damage on one spot. So the anti-swarm tactic the Brutal Emissary offers fills in one of their weaknesses.

[Tris]

3 hours ago, JDAntoine said:

I´m not sure if you`re referring to me, but I`m going to answer nonetheless

 

I feel nothing is really an auto-thake at this point. Even Guild Austringers will have to make some room if your Scheme heavy set up is required and generally the prime reason for me to thake the Austringers was because of the interactions it could have with oppossing Scheme runners, being rather well able to eliminate them by themselves.

-> I´m not sure if I understand you correctly but do you now take Austringers in a scheme marker heavy pool or not? I would take them exactly because they are good at killing opposing scheme runners and because they`ve got this nice little push+interact thingy, but I doubt that`s news to anyone^^

For me the Brutal Emissary never was not worth it's investment  but I totally agree that he remains very much optional. If you want acces to a big beater he certainly delivers, even with a low weak damage output. Phiona Gage, like expected from Henchmen is also very cool. 

What I do find suprising is how well you like the Witchling Thrall but seem to have a slight dislike for the Emissary, not certain if that's true or not but I think both have their pros and cons.

-> that`s the thing I wanted to address - I do like the emissary very much, just as I like the new Thralls

- Witchling Thrall has some fantastic damage and Cg but still that Wk 5 that's commonly seen in the Guilld and one of the weaknesses faster opponents can and will prey upon. Obviously Jank the Chain helps somewhat in that aspect but you'd still need a Wk 6+ model to make some fantastic use out of it. Aetheric Blast is very cool but at a significant lower damage track as the Emissary, still Ca though, certainly worth something.

-> and don`t underestimate the to push everything hit around as you please, really cool ability

- Brutal Emissary offers some fantastic Master synergy and has a Wk 6 that certainly fills gaps for 'push to friendly' options.

-> master synergy: oh yeah, for example the third upgrade for McCabe is very handy, and he can even help keeping the thrall alive, should you take them both

Other than that with a Sh 8, Ml 3 and Sh 2 with a build in trigger on 4" -> i guess you meant the ranges? I think that it's very capable with simply said every Master out there. But the one thing that makes a very huge difference for me is that the Upgrades are build into his cost and because of that it's easy to find him expensive on first sight but he comes with Upgrades that in my opinion are 'worth' 2SS with ease. 

-> yeah, thats for sure, the big selling point of all the emissaries, no argument here

My conclusion on them both is that if your looking for high damage output in a single spot, the Witchling Thrall will do a nice role for you. If your looking for multiple damages in a 4" circle around the Brutal Emissary there is very little we could rely upon other than masters. Their survivability is very comparable, their movements are very comparable. One requires Master attention, the other gives Masters attention. 

• For the likes of Sonnia, Lucius, McCabe and Nellie I'd prefer the Witchling Thrall, by large because they come with build in anti-swarm tactics by themselves due to either blasts, fast, free hits or reactivations. So the 'assassination' tactic the Witchling Thrall offers fills in one of their weaknesses. 
• -> as I said earlier, especially for McCabe the emissary is often considered, bonus upgrades ftw^^ I also like his synergies with Lucius (keeping his minions alive) and that he gives him the option of backsatbbing something.
• For the likes of Lady J, Perdita, McMourning, Hoffman, I'd prefer the Brutal Emissary, by large because they come with 'assassination' tactics by themselves due to dealing very high damage on one spot. So the anti-swarm tactic the Brutal Emissary offers fills in one of their weaknesses.
• -> even though McMourning could also make good use of the Thrall, pushing him around and let it ignore armor and htw

So yeah overall, both are intersting options for a variety of our masters and I´m glad that we finally have something like that

[JDAntoine]

@Tris I was and yeah I mend that the news is, 2017 mind finally be the year where double Austringers isn't the auto-include anymore. I find that Field Reporters offer a very potent and interesting alternative to stop oppossing Scheme runners for a much lower investment. While they cannot contribute to damage (much) they do allow you to basically find another 4 points if you'd thake 2 Austringers vs 2 Field Reporters.

Overall though we agree, I seem to have taken your words as 'I don't thake Emissary because low damage is 2' which clearly isn't what you mend. 

I too can't wait for the Witchling Thrall to arrive! I just happen to like the Masters a lot that do not have a massive use for it. Which doesn't matter because good design means there are less strict auto includes. All in all I can't wait for the next Wave and final release for all the DMR, Witchling Thrall and Nellie's box  .

[trikk]

25 minutes ago, JDAntoine said:

 'I don't thake Emissary because low damage is 2' which clearly isn't what you mend. 

That was me and while I`m still not convinced I will test him with Sonnia.

 

I just got my BF Thralls glued ;). I want to try them with Sonnia but the only synergy they have is Disrupt Magic and the Wp6 thing which isn`t much compared to push+nimble+reactivate from McCabe or Lucius moving them with Focus.

 

Models that I would consider before Brutal Emissary:

Phiona, Francisco, Peacekeeper, Judge

[JDAntoine]

52 minutes ago, trikk said:

That was me and while I`m still not convinced I will test him with sonnia.

Models that I would consider before Brutal Emissary:

Phiona, Francisco, Peacekeeper, Judge

Alright! Yeah as above, I think youll like the Thrall more with Sonnia.

As I see it we have a large selection of anti Master/Henchmen/Enforcer Masters and anti Minion/Totem/Peon.

I feel Sonnia has you covered with the latter but Brutal covers this aswell. Meaning I love BE with Dita, J, Hoffman and McMourning.

[Hidelfon]

The brutal emissary  minimum damage 2 kills it for me ?

[trikk]

If it had 6 on Rule of Law, it would be pretty great.

[LunarSol]

Of the latest batch of releases (since Wave 3/4 basically both arrived this year) the only one I consider competitively vital is Nellie's box.  She's unique in the faction and very strong; her totem's good; Phiona is probably the next best henchman after Frank; and the Field Reporters are the cheap filler minion we've desperately lacked forever.

Next up, I rate the Emissary and Thrall as things that aren't strictly necessary, but are considerable boons to your bag.  The Thrall fills a niche as a strong, durable, high cost Minion with a lot of nice unique synergies with different masters.  The Emissary is a solid piece that's aggressively priced and provides some unique options with practice.  I wish some of the Conflux upgrades were more appealing, but its worth noting that the Brutal Conflux alone provides a solid option for him.

Everything else (DMR/Allison/Greed/Sanctioned/Queeg/Mounted) sits in a pretty good place.  None of them really feel like they're aggressively fighting for a spot, but all of them are quite playable and worth experimenting with.  Solid if a little uninspiring; a lot of them have neat situationally useful tools, and none of them are as bad as things like GG or Wastrels.

Also, two thumbs up for finally having competitive upgrades.  That is probably a larger change than anything this side of Nellie.

[trikk]

I agree about the upgrades. I took Curfew once (and got trolled by my opponent as he played Hamelin but his heavy hitters were Nix, Bishop and A&D), but I still think its worth it.

A Debt is nice but I still have trouble with the timing to use it.

 

Numb is great. I took it on Peacekeeper and Ryle and man, does it annoy people

 

I really wan to try Allison as she seems to be fun, but I can`t seem to find a place for her outside of Nellie (and possibly McCabe as he can have Guardsmen)

[Clockwork_Fish]

I'd like to single out the Orderly for praise.  A model with Move 6, Unimpeded, pseudo Regeneration, a 6" heal and a card cycling mechanic?  Not too shabby for 5 points.  He's like a Wastrel with competence.

[Hidelfon]

20 hours ago, trikk said:

I agree about the upgrades. I took Curfew once (and got trolled by my opponent as he played Hamelin but his heavy hitters were Nix, Bishop and A&D), but I still think its worth it.

A Debt is nice but I still have trouble with the timing to use it.

 

Numb is great. I took it on Peacekeeper and Ryle and man, does it annoy people

 

I really wan to try Allison as she seems to be fun, but I can`t seem to find a place for her outside of Nellie (and possibly McCabe as he can have Guardsmen)

please,  could you elaborate in the last part?  

"I really wan to try Allison as she seems to be fun, but I can`t seem to find a place for her outside of Nellie"

[trikk]

I can`t seem to be able to fit her into a roster. She likes guardsmen to improve her damage, but she`s a mid range model which can`t really withstand midrange reply. El Mayor might help her, but thats 20 points already (she really like A Debt with Guardsmen)

[4thstringer]

1 hour ago, trikk said:

I can`t seem to be able to fit her into a roster. She likes guardsmen to improve her damage, but she`s a mid range model which can`t really withstand midrange reply. El Mayor might help her, but thats 20 points already (she really like A Debt with Guardsmen)

Ive been meaning to try her with a few different models,  including frank to make her a show of force problem to deal with,  wardens,  mounted guard.   I've tried her without such helpers and she has been fairly lackluster. 

[Clockwork_Fish]

What about combining her with Dashel and his new upgrade?

[Ozymandias79]

That's a lot of points in stuff that don't do much on their own.  I'd be curious to try it, but it has the problems a lot of support pieces have: kill the main models and the support pieces are near useless.

[JDAntoine]

From my perspective a lot of guardsman suffer from being good in pairs but below standard on their own. The sole exception maby being Guild Austringers.

My hope still sits in a guardsman summonning Master because of that. 

Allison has a lot of cool stuff but we'd need consitancy in order to make it work. So far I have no place for her in any of my crews but the same applies to most guardsman for me, with a handful of very specific combinations or Austringer ;).

[Ludvig]

59 minutes ago, JDAntoine said:

From my perspective a lot of guardsman suffer from being good in pairs but below standard on their own. The sole exception maby being Guild Austringers.

My hope still sits in a guardsman summonning Master because of that. 

Allison has a lot of cool stuff but we'd need consitancy in order to make it work. So far I have no place for her in any of my crews but the same applies to most guardsman for me, with a handful of very specific combinations or Austringer ;).

I feel wardens are ok as single hires. They're not the most powerful 6 ss choice in the game but I feel they're in a decent place without support.