Shade Layer Vs Wash

[ZeeDeveel]

Getting ready to paint my minis at the weekend but I'm not sure how to go about the shading process. Doctor Faust of Doctor Faust's Painting Clinic uses multiple layers starting off with a very dark layer and then gradually building up the base layer and the highlights in thin coats on increasingly pronounced areas. Doctor F tends to reserve washes for the same kinds of areas he does his dry brushing e.g. chainmail.

Lester Bursley on the other hand seems not to use a dark base layer and goes straight in with the base coat and then uses a dark wash to do all the shading, then he will clean up the base layer and do his highlights after.

Could someone advise me as to which approach I should take with my Lynch crew box? It seems like using washes is quicker and easier, but will I achieve the same quality finish? Or should I be selective about when to use each approach and if so, when should I use each approach? Thanks!
 

[Ludvig]

I'm not sure if others argee but I think different styles work for different painters. Khaiden on these forums make heavy use of washes and gets great results, others prefer to build up from dark to light.

It all depends on how comfortable you are with the different techniques and what sort of look you are going for. I also find that some colours work better to darken and some work better to brighten (for me).

I would categorize myself as a somewhat decent painter but I am far from good. My approach is usually to do a basecoat, do some heavy shading in a few areas with a dark and watered down colour and then bring them together medium-dark tone. After that I touch up the original colour and add some highlights to brighter areas.

So depending on your familiarity with the techniques and your intended end result different approaches may work better for you. Do you have a miniature with a look that resembles what you are going for?

[Kaled]

When I'm teaching someone to paint I generally suggest starting by painting all of the base colours, applying washes to get the shading and then highlighting up from there. It's not the only way to do it, nor necessarily the best, but I find it a good way for new painters to start learning.

You should start experimenting with different methods as soon as you feel comfortable to figure out what works best for you and the look you want to achieve.

[mythicFOX]

My sense from your post is these are the first minis you've painted? 

Everyone has a different technique that works for them. Learning to paint minis is as much about learning what works for you as it is about learning specific techniques. Washes tend to be considered a more beginner friendly technique but that's, not to say starting dark and working up to light wont work better for you.

My best advice is to just start painting and enjoy the journey.

There are photos of my painted minis on my twitter feed, link in my signature.

[ZeeDeveel]

I've painted a bit of Warhammer but the enormity of the task of painting a Warhammer army really put me off. I managed to achieve an OK look by basically just base coating models and slathering them in wash. They looked a bit messy though.

Here're some Lynch models I think are painted well, my suspicion is that washes have not been used:

[Ludvig]

Washing is the quick and dirty method, I think you're right about none of those painters having used that. The more contained approach is done with a similarly thinned paint consistency but you load the brushhead with a lot less paint and apply it carefully. I believe layering is the correct term but I'm not 100% sure. If you have a search for "layering miniature painting" you are bound to find a million videos.

 

Looks to me like the orco-nero pic was done using an airbrush but the others look like traditional brush-painting to my untrained eyes.

 

I spent a few days just looking at videos, there are multiple great channels on youtube that take you through different techniques. After that I tested various different approaches on models I wanted to paint but that I wouldn't feel bad if I messed up on. It can be tricky to get the hang of how big steps to take between layers and learning to control the flow of very dilluted paint. Feathering and wet-blending are related techniques that create very smooth transitions I believe. No matter what you go for you will likely need to practice on a few models before you feel like you have mastered it.

If it gets blotchy (like washes often get) then the problem is likely to be too much paint loaded into the brush. That can sometimes be saved before it dries by using a paint brush without colour to splosh the wet paint around to where you want it. You can also clean up moderate mistakes with the base colour applied in very thin coats. 

I'm sure better painters than me can give better explanations but watching a few videos or sitting down with someone irl is probably the most straight-forward way to learn. I normally like reading more than watching videos (brushthralls is great if it is still around) but with painting I found that videos gave me a lot.

[Viruk]

I often go for 1-2/3 highlights by mixing brighter shade with base color and often end with a very light final highlight of pure bleached bone (or any color similar to it). After that I like using a bit of wash to blend the highlights together better and then once it's dry I add one more final touch to the edges. It looks like in the pic below: 

 

[ZeeDeveel]

Thank you for your posts guys, I assembled my 2 crew boxes on the weekend and let me just say: oh my God, what an ordeal. Why the hell did they make these models so fiddly? I had an Alp which came with a separate neck! I had to attach a leg onto the Dreamer's near microscopic handholding companion and glue 2 mandibles to a woman's face which was so small I could barely see it lol.

[ZeeDeveel]

How do I prime these mofos? Here's the problem:

Their bases are covered in green stuff so I can't stick them on their bases and spray them together... and they don't have that bar between their feet like GW models to hold them by... Also some of them have separate bits which I want to spray on their own because they obscure the model and would make painting difficult... could I just hold the model with gloves and by a certain part and then spray it again holding a different part after the first spraying has dried? Or do I need to drill into them and pin them? This would require me buying an appropriate drill.

[DrEvilmonki]

I personally pin all mine as I find thats the best way to attach them to the bases. I have heard of people using bits of sprue and using plastic glue to make a tab under the feet.

As to painting it also depends on the quality you want to achieve and your experience painting. I find the easiest way to get a pretty good finish is base coat and then a wash and build up from there. Nuln oil is my crack cocaine, I use it all the time.

[Ludvig]

Some models are attached to the sprue in such a way that you can easily create a "pin" by removing part of the sprue with the feet. These hold ok for normal gaming and the method is very nice on super thin legs and small feet that are too tiny to pin. If you realize you want to rebase them I have unfortunately found that the pins have usually bonded better to the base than the rest of the model.

Let the greenstuff on the bases dry and then spray them would be my advice (if using black primer at least). I would also recommend that you get a drill, pinning will be required at some point. When you start pinning you can use wine-corks to stick the pins in and have a good grip for painting. Attaching them after both model and base has bren painted separately.

I do all my painting on already assembled models. Most areas can be reached from some angle and if I suspect it will get messy I paint the messy and hard to reach parts first and then go back to areas I know I can do without messing up the already painted ones. Painting in separate pieces has never turned out well for me.

[ZeeDeveel]

I've done the cobblestone bases, I got better as I was doing them and one of the early ones I did looks awful now by comparison. It's set and been painted however. Will it be possible to dig it out and start over? Or will digging it out be very difficult? .. Also is it still possible to get Mr. Cooper's Dark Carnival set?

[Ludvig]

On 2016-11-16 at 11:27 PM, ZeeDeveel said:

I've done the cobblestone bases, I got better as I was doing them and one of the early ones I did looks awful now by comparison. It's set and been painted however. Will it be possible to dig it out and start over? Or will digging it out be very difficult? .. Also is it still possible to get Mr. Cooper's Dark Carnival set?

No idea about Cooper, you'll need to deal with another gamer or hope for a special sale.

Do-overs on GS bases are easy with a sharp knife as long as you haven't put any model on it. Green stuff doesn't peel away entirely clean but if it's on a base you're going to cover it with something anyway so the messyness won't matter. If you have a model on it already you'll need to be careful with how you apply force so you don't bend the model, try removing it (another good thing with pinning).

[ZeeDeveel]

Ok a few questions... I started painting my guys, they're looking "ok", not embarrassing but not great either and I'm having a few problems. I'm using a technique of basically base coating, then washing, then trying to clean it up with another base coat then layer up some highlights with thin paints. However, I hear people say things like "Using a 2:1 water, to paint mix" which is fine, I can see that it gives a nice thin layer, but it just pools in the recesses and doesn't cover the raised areas well. So instead of preserving the detail of the miniatures by using thinner paints, I'm actually ruining it! My Illuminated female now has webbed fingers.  Should it be possible to use a 2:1 Water:Paint mix without this happening? Is it just that I'm putting too much paint on my brush? To be honest, I find even with a 1:1 mix I'm still having this problem. Do I need to only put very small amounts of paint on the brush each time? What ratio of Water:Paint should I be using for base coats and what ratio for layering? For highlights it makes sense that you want a thin layer which is translucent but at the same time, if you're only trying to hit very raised areas, you need the paint to be quite sticky and not runny. So for edge highlighting and final highlights do you use it straight out of the pot? Oh and what size brush? 

[Butch]

You have to wipe your brush on tissue before applying paint to the model. You thion the paint to get the pigment to slurry (?) and to avois the problems you're expiriencing you wipe the brush again. Don't wipe to much, as you don't want to drybrush.

The size of the brush does not matter. For most of my painting I use a #1 Windsor&Newton.

 

Sometimes I think it outnumbers rocketsience by its complexity. It takes a lot of experience. And every color has its own behavior.

 

[Treehouse]

I've tried different methods and tend to switch alot and try out new methods or order of stages, but here's what I find useful:

 

1) Brush:

As Butch stated, size doesn't matter so much (well, for very small details or quite large areas you might want different sizes) but the quality of the brush, in particular its ability to keep a pointed tip and to hold a good amount of paint without distributing it in one go. I Use Windsor&Newton Miniatures Series 7 #1 as well and have never looked back. Fantastic brush, and actually cheaper if you consider taht you can use it a looon time. Make sure to use brush soap or a similar way to properly clean it. Just using water won't get rid of all pigments and they will keep accumulating where the brush meets the .... metal thingy...don't know the English name for it. I use The Masters Brush Soap - awesome stuff. http://www.artdiscount.co.uk/media/catalog/product/cache/1/thumbnail/460x458/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/m/a/masters_brush_cleaner1229951235_68.jpg

 

2) Consistency of paint:

The longer I've been painting, the thinner I like to have my paints. Mostly. Sometimes for a quicker paintjob using layers from dark to light I like them a bit thicker. But mostly they'll have to have the consistency of milk the way I like to paint right now. This way, the layers underneath will shine through and you can get good blends with it. I mostly use shading and glazing for my Malifaux miniatures, that's why it works for me.

 

3) Applying paint:

As already stated by other posters - load the brush with paint but don't float it or dunk it into the paint. Try to keep the area where the bristles meet the metal clip (?) free of paint. Then unload the brosh on a paper towel or a piece of cloth etc. by gently pushing the bottom of the brush (not the pointy tip) sideways against said towel. Reapeat if needed. Avoid puddles of paint on your miniature or pushing the paint in a way that it leaves an 'edge'/'border' --- you can use a second dry brush or q Q-Tip to get rid of too much/unwanted paint.  (Also washes and inks, to bring out the layer underneath again)

 

4) Shading, Glazing, Washing

Shading:

Use paint to darken/shade specific areas of a miniature. Don't only use black, try to find a darker colour of your base tone and mix that in too.

 

Washing (with Inks):

Use paint to darken/shade the whole miniature or entire parts, i.e. a piece of cloth, metallic parts etc. The paint is meant to float into gaps but will also darken/dying the layer underneath.

 

Washing (with Washes): Again, broader area but paint has way less pigments and is not supposed to dye/darken the parts but instead mostly float into gaps.

Of course, Washes and Inks can be used for specific areas or details as well as 'blacklining' etc. too.

 

Glazing:

Use very thinned down paint to dye areas of a model. For example, apply purple, blue and green hues to skin colour. Think of it as a filter like you use for photografy.

For example, I've done the purple hues on my Hungering Darkness using glazes:

 

5) What I do:

Right now, I try to paint fast but with a quality I'm content with. It also has to look good on the tabletop. For this I think you need high contrasts of light and dark as well as of colours.

First, I spray-prime my models with black from underneath, then with grey from the side and then with white from the top. In this way, you create lights and shadows even before painting. (Even better used with an air brush, sadly I don't have one - for example, Orco Negro's miniatures in your example were painted with help of an airbrush as it looks like).

 

Then, I apply the base colours. Very much thinned down and in a darker tone as they are supposed to be later, as the white will lighten up the paint quite a bit.

 

 

You could kind of play it like this already (with the white parts dyed of course) and it would look OK, albeit quite faint. Then I apply more shades to the darker areas. The nice thing is that using this method, you'll don't have to think about were the shades and lights have to be that much. A lot of the work has been done by the base coat.  After the shading, I apply thin highlights and then a wash to tie the layers together. Sometimes I then add a final highlight. Some more WIPs:

  

 

These were quick paintjobs. If you add more layers and apply them more carefully, you can get more detailed and smoother results, like below. (The skin has glazes in the shades for example)

 

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[sillybrian]

There's quite a lot of advice and linkage in the replies already, so I will shy away from that.

What I would like to add to the discussion is that there are three steps I find critical to improving in painting and I would strongly recommend this mantra to anyone that asks:

1) Paint!  Don't be shy or scared.  Get in there and try it.  Yes, the models are expensive and yes, we are all afraid of ruining them.  Overcome that fear, and get in there and paint.

2) Honest critique.  When you finish a model, don't just move on to the next one... stop and look at it, and decide what you like, what you don't like, what worked just as you thought it would, what didn't... I personally keep a little journal, but that's just my style.  The important thing here is to spend the time embedding the learnings in your mind.

3) Push yourself.  Make sure that every model you work on, you do so with at least one technique in mind that you are "uncomfortable" with that you are determined to try.  You have to challenge yourself, and the only way to get comfortable with new techniques is to push through the period of being uncomfortable.

 

There really is no way to generalize how to thin paint or how to apply washes for every case.  Some people like models that look more realistic, while others painting the same model would prefer that it look like it jumped out of the panel of a comic book.  Both can use different thinning and washing techniques for the same surfaces.

There are many videos on youtube, and picture files and everything.... but like everything in life, the more you try it yourself, the more value you will actually get when you go back and watch the video again or look at the photos again because now you truly have a frame of reference.

[ZeeDeveel]

Really excellent posts, thank you all. The spraying with different colour primers from different angles is cool, I have grey and black, I might try grey from above, black from below, do you think it makes a big difference?

I've also ordered from Glaze Medium and Matte Medium to use in addition to water to give my thinned paints a bit more adhesion!

[Treehouse]

Just with black and grey, I think there won't be much of a difference, as the white creates the high contrasts.

 

 

[silicon_dioxide]

A grey over black can work fine. I do it all the time. It just depends on the shade of grey. Vallejo spray primers (for airbrush) work great for zenithal highlighting. 

 

[Lordunborn]

I have heard this term a bunch "Consistency of Milk" but nobody ever says what kind of milk.

Whole Milk, 2%, 1% Skim, Chocolate?  All milks have VERY different consistencies.  I try to use droppers for everything.  I add Flow Improver to my GW paints and put them in droppers so I can use them pretty much out of the dropper.  The labels peel right off and go on the droppers well.  This way they are mostly mixed.  Sometimes I need to thin them a bit more if they sit for a long time.

I love my W&N Series 7 Brushes but I threw out my Miniature Series 7.  That thing was s joke.  The barrel was way to small for painting with.  I would recommend the standard Series 7 over the Miniature Series 7.  I own a 0,1 of W&N and a 2,3 from Rosemary and Company (which I actually use more often than the W&N and they are half the price).  Shipping from across the pond gets pricey though.

I Just started with Malifaux and am still putting together my first crew.  I am not overly pleased with the way they are made either.  The tip of the Dopplegangers foot is gone and will need to be remade in greenstuff as the plastic that was holding her to the sprue took the toes with it.  I am using a brand new snip too.  I think the assembly could be a bit easier and the detail leaves a LOT to be desired but overall not bad for the price and a (relatively) new plastics company.  For the cost I will do my best with facial details and work with the poor assembly.

Edited November 30, 2016 by Lordunborn
Spelling.

[ZeeDeveel]

23 minutes ago, Lordunborn said:

I have heard this term a bunch "Consistency of Milk" but nobody ever says what kind of milk.

Whole Milk, 2%, 1% Skim, Chocolate?

Lol yes I thought this too. I've been using Rosemary brushes and I'm not getting on with them, I actually at the same time bought a pack of really cheap synthetic brushes that I planned to use for drybrushing only, but the brush shape of the cheap brushes seems to work a lot better for painting tiny little Malifaux peoples. The bristles on the Rosemary brushes are quite long and have a curved profile, where as the synthetics are more triangular and pointy which I'm finding easier to work with. I'm also finding the Rosemary brushes are beginning to fray. I've ordered a WN size 0, they seem to be more angular shaped.

Some things I've discovered or some things I've thought about are as follows:

I've seen a lot of painting tutorials where people say they use a size 2 or a size 1 for nearly all their painting, but Malifaux has such small details that I think trying to stick to use these brush sizes is handicapping for me.

In terms of paint consistency I've found it's very easy to overwater the paints, wetting your brush slightly seems to provide enough water to make a 1:1 mix with a drop of paint. Clearly using droppers is a better idea. I've ordered some matte mix, I will try using that and when that runs out, if I'm not gonna buy more, I can use that bottle for my water.

People always say you should water down your paints, but I think getting the right consistency is incredibly important. I've heard people say it's better to add too much water than too little and I think I've taken this advice on board and been adding too much water which makes the paints run into the details. When people say you should mix 1:1 or whatever, I think that's fine for a basecoat but I've tried using this sort of paint for edge highlighting or painting highlights on fine details and it just runs into the crevices and ruins the paintjob. So I plan now on using a 1:1 mix for basecoating and perhaps something similar for layering paints but if I have to do any fine detail or edgehighlighting, I'm barely gonna water it at all.

I've been using Vallejo paints and I watch painting tutorials and people blob a drop out from their droppers and it looks very viscous, sitting in a tall blob. Have Vallejo changed their ratios since these vids were made? I can shake and shake and shake my paints and for the most part they still come out fairly runny. Then I start trying to mix them 1:1 and they just turn into a complete mess.

Another thing is, on these painting tutorials you see people skipping the multiple layers they're doing and the drying times etc which is a key part of painting. I'm finding that not waiting for the paint to dry completely before painting over it ruins the model, not putting enough layers on of thinned paint looks awful and that the paint looks very different when it's being applied to when it's dry. These nuances are missing from most tutorials as are the actual mixing of the paints and what goes on on the pallet in general such as how to get the paint on the brush, how much to dab off on kitchen towel etc

[Treehouse]

If you get to the point where it makes a difference for you whether the consistency is whole milk, skim milk, soj or pumpkin spice latte, you are most likely at a point where you don't need advice on how far to thin down your paint.

Hence, 'consistency of milk' is a fair enough average to work with.