The Dreaded Auto Pick

[hydranixx]

Hi team,

Today I want to find out more about auto pick material in your corner of the globe. Specifically, which non-master models and upgrades are commonly considered to be top tier picks, and how might they influence the hiring process within their faction?

What's an auto pick? Typically, a model or upgrade that is such a bargain for its ss cost that you feel pressured to include them in your lists purely because they're excellent well rounded choices that kind of overshadow similar choices. You have to actively find compelling reasons to not hire them, rather than find reasons to hire them.

Here's two simplified examples I've noticed in my meta:

I've declared Guild and I'm up against (insert any faction here), so I think I'll start with 2 Austringers. I should probably grab Frank with Wade In too. I now have 29ss left to spend. Now, let's have a look at the schemes & strategy and pick my master.

I'm Arcanists, so I'm almost always going to be putting Seize the Day or Arcane Reservoir, or perhaps even both, on whichever Master I pick. Also, if I find space for 3x Imbued Energies, I'm taking 3x Imbued Energies, because, Imbued Energies.

What are the most common auto picks, or almost auto picks, in your meta?

[Freman]

Well, I'm playing Hamelin at the moment and I always start with The Piper, The Plague, the Obedient Wretch, and a Stolen. Also 6-7 stones. It puts me on the path to my goal of five Rat Kings on the table by the end of the game (it hasn't happened yet, but I'm working towards it).

In Outcasts in general there's always a temptation to take a Librarian, and two Trappers are very handy, but I can't call them auto-takes.

[bertmac]

Frank and austringers certainly seems prevalent!

Arcane resevoir goes on a lot of my Arcanist masters although Marcus can be played with thre of his specific upgrades and Seize the day only if I think I need initiative due to the strat as I like Kaeris with a limited and blinding flame so arcane resevoir tends to be the third upgrade. Imbued energis will generally be if I have enough enforcers/henchmen although I don't tend to take it on firestarter so whoever of Howard/Joss/Rail Golem/Sabertooth Cerberus/Myranda I've taken.

 

[daniello_s]

In Outcasts it is dead easy to point out auto-picks: Johan and 2-3x Oathkeeper

Trapper seems to fall to this category as well although recently I'm not taking him too often. 

[DXXXVIII]

Survivalist on most masters,
A&D ist a crutch >.<
Oath keeper.
And lately i began to autopick hans with scout the field.

[Nikodemus]

It's a small meta but ressers seem to love Belles and Emissaries. Can't blame them, seem like solid models.

As a Ten Thunders player I have hard time imagining a list without one of Shenlong/Sensei Yu/Shadow Emissary. First two can push+slow and all three can push+fast. 1 AP for walk+1AP seems like a good deal no matter what model I support with that. Schemers like tossing more markers and beaters like doing more beatings. 

Speaking of beaters, I always take Recalled Training if I want something dead. 1ss discard for +flip on all flips until EoT. Between our beaters' native flurries/reactivates/experts and fast from above you can get a lot of mileage out of one turn of RT. For only 1ss it's hard to argue against it. Give it to a killy model and stuff just dies.

Another upgrade that might very well become an autopick is Death Contract 1ss/False Target 0ss from the new upgrade set. FT does nothing. DC: killer of this model must discard cards/ss or die. They are face down upgrades that don't count against upgrade limit. You could play some mind games with FT, but simply just give DC to a recalled training beater who you shove into enemy's face. I've only played a little with it but it seems very promising.

Haven't noticed other autopicks crop up in casual play

[D_acolyte]

Retribution's Eye: for 1 stone you ignore armor on all attacks and may discard the upgrade at the beginning of your turn to ignore Df and Wp triggers during your activations.

I sure there are others but I tend not to play ones I see as "common ones" for neverborn.

I often take a mature nephilim and Lust. I will sometimes take a stichtogether or Widow Weaver. I often skip Nekima and Doupleganger.

I feel Tooth has a good chance at becoming common.

[chryspainthemum]

Doppelganger because... Holy crap look at what you get for 7ss. Thousand now too since its just better than other upgrades outside of first then shenanigans?

[hydranixx]

11 hours ago, Freman said:

Well, I'm playing Hamelin at the moment and I always start with The Piper, The Plague, the Obedient Wretch, and a Stolen. Also 6-7 stones. It puts me on the path to my goal of five Rat Kings on the table by the end of the game (it hasn't happened yet, but I'm working towards it).

In Outcasts in general there's always a temptation to take a Librarian, and two Trappers are very handy, but I can't call them auto-takes.

I would hardly call Hamelin auto pick. Besides which my interest was purely on "non-master models and upgrades". Trappers are ever popular though, you're right on that front.

9 hours ago, daniello_s said:

In Outcasts it is dead easy to point out auto-picks: Johan and 2-3x Oathkeeper

To be honest, Johan seems to find his way to the 'almost auto pick' group even outside of Outcasts . Definitely a solid all rounder. 

8 hours ago, Nikodemus said:

It's a small meta but ressers seem to love Belles and Emissaries. Can't blame them, seem like solid models.

As a Ten Thunders player I have hard time imagining a list without one of Shenlong/Sensei Yu/Shadow Emissary. First two can push+slow and all three can push+fast. 1 AP for walk+1AP seems like a good deal no matter what model I support with that. Schemers like tossing more markers and beaters like doing more beatings. 

Speaking of beaters, I always take Recalled Training if I want something dead. 1ss discard for +flip on all flips until EoT. Between our beaters' native flurries/reactivates/experts and fast from above you can get a lot of mileage out of one turn of RT. For only 1ss it's hard to argue against it. Give it to a killy model and stuff just dies.

Another upgrade that might very well become an autopick is Death Contract 1ss/False Target 0ss from the new upgrade set. FT does nothing. DC: killer of this model must discard cards/ss or die. They are face down upgrades that don't count against upgrade limit. You could play some mind games with FT, but simply just give DC to a recalled training beater who you shove into enemy's face. I've only played a little with it but it seems very promising.

Haven't noticed other autopicks crop up in casual play

Agreed, both the Carrion & Shadow seem massively useful for their factions. I think Recalled Training belongs in the same category as Imbued Energies, Oathkeeper, Debt to the Guild etc. 

Always take them on your beaters, because they boost them substantially for a price well worth paying. 

5 hours ago, D_acolyte said:

Retribution's Eye: for 1 stone you ignore armor on all attacks and may discard the upgrade at the beginning of your turn to ignore Df and Wp triggers during your activations.

I sure there are others but I tend not to play ones I see as "common ones" for neverborn.

I often take a mature nephilim and Lust. I will sometimes take a stichtogether or Widow Weaver. I often skip Nekima and Doupleganger.

I feel Tooth has a good chance at becoming common.

I think you're one of only a handful. Almost every list seems to include 2-3 of Nekima and Doppleganger and very commonly Primordial Magic as well. Interesting to see at least one competent NB player eschews them.

[D_acolyte]

On 10/19/2016 at 3:41 PM, hydranixx said:

I think you're one of only a handful. Almost every list seems to include 2-3 of Nekima and Doppleganger and very commonly Primordial Magic as well. Interesting to see at least one competent NB player eschews them.

I totally for got about primordial magic, yes I do not often take him either.

[EnternalVoid]

Always interesting to see what other groups call auto picks.  Only one player around here uses Nekima anywhere close to regularly and he is still trying to grasp her.  Doppelganger gets more action but I would say only shows up in 25% of neverborn games.  Primordial magic though shows up in most that don't have a totem that auto wins out *Hungering Darkness and Daydreams*.  That said Francisco is very common in the guild lists across several masters.  Austringers vary, one Guild player uses them all the time now but it is also a rarity in other players' lists making them not quite common.

I will say Hannah is quite popular in our group though for the Outcast players, it seems everyone of them have her and take her at least half the time.  Generally with a Librarian support.

[JDAntoine]

I guess it happens because specific models directly thake a different approach to a specific faction or Master that comes with specific weaknesses. My knowledge of the game isn't that big, still have a ton to learn but overall I will say that the Guild usually has some mediocre 'survival' stats on their Masters and usually can find ways to strike from afar with either Master or Henchmen so Austringers become the insurance policy that those (ranged) attacks are never wasted, even if an opponent can find a spot out of LoS again.

Long story short, the game doesn't revolve around killing at all, but only dealing enough to get a model on his last box feels (and is) wasted AP. So Austringers often come in to make sure that Perdita, Sonnia or McCabe etc. can finish what they started. In that same vein your bound to get charged as a Guild player due to the many ranged attacks and nothing can set you as save as Frank can (currentl) but Phiona might eventually make the difference with her pilar...

I'm rather sure these types of insurance-models/upgrades also apply to other factions. As mentioned, if you have the option to have a 7 card hand, it's ALWAYS going to be a good pick in this game. The same applies to upgrades/models who push, reactivate, remove scheme markers or hand out positive conditions often all to remove the potential 'wasted AP' and by large killing models who havn't activated yet is also a form of forced wasted AP on your opponents side.

But because of the way Malifaux is designed I actually do not mind these auto-includes. By large also because the exceptions exist. Not all Guild Masters need Frank or Austringers. Not all Arcanist Masters need Seize the Day or Arcane Reservoir etc. IF we where forced into picking crews before revealing Scheme's it could become a boring game but luckily this is not required.

[hydranixx]

Well said. I agree with you in that Austringers are only 'really, really good' with half the masters. However they're still perfectly feasible options with the other Guild masters too. There are combinations with them and Hoffman (using Emissary, or so I hear), and Guild McMourning + Austringers seems like a very efficient scheme running list (plus he can give them precision to beat through undead or armour) etc.

I think what makes them exceptional is their price tag. A meager 6ss, for everything they bring to the table, is why they're the first thing anyone recommends to any prospective new Guild player. People would still hire them at 7ss.

10 hours ago, JDAntoine said:

I'm rather sure these types of insurance-models/upgrades also apply to other factions. 

I half agree; my Arcanist perspective is that we have no auto include models, but do have auto include upgrades. Perhaps that speaks leagues about how diverse Arcanist masters are. The closest I'd get to auto include models are our Malifaux Raptors purely for their horrendous mobility and rock bottom price of 3ss. I'll probably have 1 in every list I play.

10 hours ago, JDAntoine said:

Not all Arcanist Masters need Seize the Day or Arcane Reservoir etc

While it's true that not all masters 'need' them, they're still such superb, general-purpose upgrades that they find their way into almost all crews I see. Unique upgrades for each master are definitely the priority, but after those are taken care of, these 2 upgrades essentially become automatic add-ons to fill up all remaining slots. The only dilemma occurs when when they have only 1 slot left, and have to pick between either StD or AR instead of both, lol. 

I like the upgrade system itself. It's just a little odd that some of them are basically must-have requirements. I can't think of a time McCabe didn't take Glowing Sabre and Badge of Speed, for example. They appear so integral to the Master that he cannot function without them and at that point, 'upgrade' doesn't sound generous enough a term for what they are to McCabe lol. Food for thought.

[Paddywhack]

Shieldbearers are becoming one for me. They handle their own pretty well with any master. Decaying Aura for Reva. 

Necropunks if there are any scheme marker heavy stuff.

Against Guild, or  heavy crews, Sebastian is a must. Under Cover offers so much and can shut down a Perdita crew pretty hard. 

I see a lot of Killjoy around here. A lot....

Oh, My Little Helper upgrade is almost a x2 auto-include now as well. Too good an upgrade for 1SS. 

[spooky_squirrel]

21 minutes ago, hydranixx said:

While it's true that not all masters 'need' them, they're still such superb, general-purpose upgrades that they find their way into almost all crews I see. Unique upgrades for each master are definitely the priority, but after those are taken care of, these 2 upgrades essentially become automatic add-ons to fill up all remaining slots. The only dilemma occurs when when they have only 1 slot left, and have to pick between either StD or AR instead of both, lol.

I confuse people in my local meta who also play Arcanists by not playing with Arcane Reservoir all the time, but that's when I'm running crews that don't rely on control hand as much because their tricks are all on the table with them (i.e. Mei with Emissary's Conflux scrap when I want one guaranteed jump and am willing to work the follow-up, or Ironsides because her upgrades make her able to do more work than a 7th card would).

On the other hand, I almost always have Imbued Energies sitting on either an enforcer or a henchman, because that extra AP if they live to dash for Undercover Entourage or extra cards when they don't will come in very handy.

[Vorschlag]

1 hour ago, hydranixx said:

I think what makes them exceptional is their price tag. A meager 6ss, for everything they bring to the table, is why they're the first thing anyone recommends to any prospective new Guild player.

There's no debate they are good for their price and if you have high masks in your hand you can empty your opponents hand by targeting low df models but they are not something I include in every list especially not in duplicate form, but then I will never run Francisco as I find peoples over reliance on him repulsive (and I have no plans to get Perdita's crew since I dislike their theme).

 

1 hour ago, hydranixx said:

While it's true that not all masters 'need' them, they're still such superb, general-purpose upgrades that they find their way into almost all crews I see.

Agreed some are certainly over powered for their cost but they also fill up an upgrade slot for some masters this can be a problem for others less - it depends on the build - which ironically falls into the general issue of set lists/auto-picks.  

We all develop our crutches that we over rely on and they can vary from the kind of auto-pick crutch you're referring to (one someone takes constantly and fumbles when they are removed) to conditional crutched - responding directly to strats and schemes to comfort zone - models the person is comfortable with and knows how to use adaptively to most situations. 

Regardless of previous debates I do believe that models become crutches to players and that skilled players can play competitively competitive with or without them where a less skilled player may struggle with lists without their preferred crutch, the difference being that the a skilled player the lack of their inclusion may feel more like a stubbed toe where a less skilled player may feel like they are missing a leg.

[spooky_squirrel]

5 minutes ago, Vorschlag said:

Regardless of previous debates I do believe that models become crutches to players and that skilled players can play competitively competitive with or without them where a less skilled player may struggle with lists without their preferred crutch, the difference being that the a skilled player the lack of their inclusion may feel more like a stubbed toe where a less skilled player may feel like they are missing a leg.

This, many times over. A local (and good) Arcanist player recently felt like he got his teeth kicked in when his Mechanical Rider died turn 1. The Mechanical Rider is really solid, adds more summoning, card draw, and scheme marker placement to a faction that's already used to running elite crews. Many feel it is an auto-take/must-have model and will work it into as many lists as they can. I've run into a similar situation with Joss, because he's rock solid and useful to many masters, but if he gets focused away early, he doesn't get to do any work and the thing(s) he's hired for don't happen. It forces sitting back and thinking of how I can set up a crew that can competently complete 3-4* out of 5 schemes with enough overlap where losing one key piece doesn't cause me to only have one scheme option and/or no ability to complete the strategy. The take away from this is "don't have auto-takes, learn all of your models so that you can drop what you need to into whatever is coming". As solid as they seem, the Mechanical Rider and Joss have some serious pressure points that can become breaking points for them. Conditions will strip a Mechanical rider down even with all of its goodies in place. A solid alpha strike will do the same. Joss can take several solid hits, but he cannot stop a swarm of 1-2 point hits from whittling him down if he's unsupported (Collodi's thousand cuts) and anything that ignores armor or HtK (like he does) will beat him down fast, and various control elements can put him where he's not doing work.

*3-4 so that I can choose wisely once I see my opponent's crew and also so that my opponent doesn't immediately know what schemes I'm shooting for. Denial goes both ways.

[hydranixx]

That's the term I was looking for, 'crutch'. I reckon it's a more accurate description for a lot of those models or upgrades that show up a lot than 'auto include'. Mechanical Rider certainly does fit the description. It can fulfill many roles and score almost any scheme, and I can understand why some people rely on it. I would be equally stumped if it died on Turn 1. Especially with it's price tag, there are times that your ss are better spent elsewhere.

I've read a bit of dialogue about Francisco - discerning if he's actually worth hiring as frequently as he is. No doubt he's great, but is he really so great that he's always worth the 9-10ss? Maybe, maybe not. Could it be a crutch? Many people on the Guild forum openly state him as such. So, lacking personal experience with him (even when I play against him he ends up killing himself most of the time..) I tend to agree with your comments.

When (or if) I play against a Guild player who doesn't hire at least one Austringer, I'll make a mental note of it and talk with them about it.

[Vorschlag]

26 minutes ago, hydranixx said:

When (or if) I play against a Guild player who doesn't hire at least one Austringer, I'll make a mental note of it and talk with them about it.

Weston (Auckland's most competitive guild players) runs one 70% of the time.

I don't run them with McMourning, and run them with probably 2-3/4 Lucius builds.

But I'm yet to cycle round to guild as my competive faction, they're one of two options I'm likely to go with after never born.

[LexLock]

I always like to take Sue in outcasts and now with return fire he's even better.

[JDAntoine]

13 hours ago, hydranixx said:

Well said. I agree with you in that Austringers are only 'really, really good' with half the masters. However they're still perfectly feasible options with the other Guild masters too. There are combinations with them and Hoffman (using Emissary, or so I hear), and Guild McMourning + Austringers seems like a very efficient scheme running list (plus he can give them precision to beat through undead or armour) etc.

I think what makes them exceptional is their price tag. A meager 6ss, for everything they bring to the table, is why they're the first thing anyone recommends to any prospective new Guild player. People would still hire them at 7ss.

I half agree; my Arcanist perspective is that we have no auto include models, but do have auto include upgrades. Perhaps that speaks leagues about how diverse Arcanist masters are. The closest I'd get to auto include models are our Malifaux Raptors purely for their horrendous mobility and rock bottom price of 3ss. I'll probably have 1 in every list I play.

While it's true that not all masters 'need' them, they're still such superb, general-purpose upgrades that they find their way into almost all crews I see. Unique upgrades for each master are definitely the priority, but after those are taken care of, these 2 upgrades essentially become automatic add-ons to fill up all remaining slots. The only dilemma occurs when when they have only 1 slot left, and have to pick between either StD or AR instead of both, lol. 

I like the upgrade system itself. It's just a little odd that some of them are basically must-have requirements. I can't think of a time McCabe didn't take Glowing Sabre and Badge of Speed, for example. They appear so integral to the Master that he cannot function without them and at that point, 'upgrade' doesn't sound generous enough a term for what they are to McCabe lol. Food for thought.

Austringers indeed fill a role that we cannot find on many models, inside the Guild and outside. The biggest offenssive bonus they have is the ranged attack with a decent damage track for a minion that totally ignores LoS, cover (and engagements) which easily allows it to find a place turn 1 and spend all further AP into attacking, which is great because even if it dies it's functionality doesn't stop there.

Regarding auto include Upgrades per Arcanist model, I do think diversity swings both ways here. You can include them but there are also a ton of other ways to use those models, often found in Gamin. While not all of them are incredible they all are rather durable and rather effective scheme runners. It's easy to have 2-3 of great Upgrades on Masters, Henchmen or Enforcers but I personally think a Gamin still comes with it's own set of advantages especially because cheap scheme runners work really well with large scary models (a tactic that Ramos can preform very well on it's own).

I do agree with you that some Upgrades for Masters are auto-includes, on the other hand I don't mind this so much because they often add to the character/fear of said Master. In the current setting I feel that faction character is all over the place but Master character is not and as such specific masters represent their faction 'strenght'. I don't feel the same applies to Henchmen or Enforcers, they usually have a large range of Upgrades to choose from with several different advantages. 

In general however I feel that the character lorewise is somewhat correct. To my knowledge only the Guild, Neverborn and Gremlins always clearly state that they are part of that faction, Arcanists, Ressers, Outcasts and Ten Thunders are often much more shrouded in mistery. What this leads to is that specific characters make up a faction and often that character depends on a Limited Upgrade that is priced very low for the power (and thus be limited) which in turn adds a strenght to the faction as a whole.

So I'd say, there are very few auto-pick models but indeed are auto-pick Upgrades. The latter is there often to reinforce a specific trait of a faction. 

[hydranixx]

23 hours ago, Vorschlag said:

Weston (Auckland's most competitive guild players) runs one 70% of the time.

I don't run them with McMourning, and run them with probably 2-3/4 Lucius builds.

It seems like there's very few competitive players in Auckland, so I'd look forward to a tough match if/when Weston returns. 

I'll be honest, my last game was against Ten Thunders (you know the culprit, haha), and even then an Austringer showed up since McCabe was leading.

14 hours ago, JDAntoine said:

Regarding auto include Upgrades per Arcanist model, I do think diversity swings both ways here. You can include them but there are also a ton of other ways to use those models, often found in Gamin. While not all of them are incredible they all are rather durable and rather effective scheme runners. It's easy to have 2-3 of great Upgrades on Masters, Henchmen or Enforcers but I personally think a Gamin still comes with it's own set of advantages especially because cheap scheme runners work really well with large scary models (a tactic that Ramos can preform very well on it's own).

If you replace that part where you wrote "Gamin" with "Arcane Effigy" or "Malifaux Raptor", you're spot on. Gamin themselves... Not so much, unless Mech Rider summons them. I'd pick a variation of about half the available Arcanist upgrades over almost all available Gamin.

Well, ok to be totally fair, we might see some more Gamin showing up as Sandeep & Wind Gamin get more common. It's just that most other Gamin - Fire, Metal, Ice & Poison - are only ever 'ok' grudge purchases outside of exceptional circumstances. 

[Bengt]

17 hours ago, JDAntoine said:

In general however I feel that the character lorewise is somewhat correct. To my knowledge only the Guild, Neverborn and Gremlins always clearly state that they are part of that faction, Arcanists, Ressers, Outcasts and Ten Thunders are often much more shrouded in mistery.

Interesting point. To expand a bit on it, I wouldn't even think Arcanists, Resurrectionists, and Outcasts consider themselves factions as such.

Several Arcanists definitely consider themselves union men/women, but it feels like the Arcanists label is something the Guild has coined at some point to build up the menace of "renegade" magic users. Some individuals do perhaps embrace the label in an attempt to take it back, but Arcanists as such doesn't have an official membership or hierarchy.

Resurrectionists have a similar feel of a label applied by others, but even lacks formal sub organisations. There are friendships and alliances of more or less temporary nature, but that's it.

I wonder if Outcasts are a thing at all in 'verse? The running joke may be that Gremlins is not a real faction, but it is perhaps Outcasts who most deserve the label.

Ten Thunders obviously have an organisation and while some have divided loyalties I would think they are somewhat tight nit even if they don't broadcast their membership to the world at large.

[JDAntoine]

I agree with  you hydranixx regarding the subject. Certainly Gamin overall have become a bit of a nice, I hope this too will eventually change but I also think they are niche because Arcanist seem to overall be a faction who rewards 'elite models' and as such this has become part of their faction nature. In that same way Guild seems to be rewarding 'ranged attacks' very well with ways to ignore LoS in many ways and generally have weaker frames to work with. 

Also great in-depth analysis Bengt, can only agree with what's said. Because of that I think auto-includes are purposefully made to keep a 'faction character' there to support several different models within the same faction with the same model/upgrade. Which from a buyers perspective is only more comfortable to work with because usually you do not have to branch out in theme if you do not want to, altough Neverborn, Arcanists and Outcasts seem to have some exlusions to that 'rule' which in turn often says something about their devided nature 'as a faction'.

 

[Vorschlag]

Quote

divided nature as a faction

Which is brilliant for story archs because otherwise a lot of battles don't make sense.

I love the civil war starting up in Neverborn  (helps that I like Titania and dislike Lilith) in the same way I love the family feuds and uneasy peace with gremlins (which helps that I like Somer and dislike Ophelia...not half as much as I dislike Tucket though)

Sorry...going off topic there.