Why is Brewmaster a Disaster?

[Boomstick]

Personally, I don't think he needs a change (though the rewording on the contest certainly makes it simpler to explain). And considering he got that, I don't think we'll be seeing one.

I find the contest is good to lock a few key models down, but beyond that it gets too problematic.

Fielded Brewie vs Dreamer this last week in Interference. Drew  Teddy into the middle, handed him a few drinks and made sure he was Swilled all game -- he only moved when a Daydream finally pushed him away once I'd moved a model that was blocking him in a few turns later. Even locked down Chompy when he popped out before he could activate (but believe me when I say I'm glad I had the resources to set off You're Drunk, Go Home" if needed.)

With the heavy hitters locked down, the rest of my crew focusedo on schemes. Only thing that died all game was an Alp that had taken a hit and wandered into the contest so he died from poison at the end of the turn.

The contest is the opponent's focus. I find Brewie works best if his focus is knowing who to Swill or Binge for the rest of his crew to capitalize on. 

Side point: I was recently reminded that since Swill is a negative to all duels and flips that includes any healing/prevention on them and damage they put out. Figured I'd make sure others realized that too. Really made him shine more than usual in the game I was talking about.

[Dogmantra]

Let him hire Wesley in 10T without an upgrade (no difference to gremlin players ofc but I have always found it kinda odd)

And more 10T only Tri-Chi models. It sounds like you'd be buffing 10T brewie without touching Gremlin brewie but imo he's not actually a bad master. He's very good when he works well. The issue is as a few people said when this thread came about earlier that Death is the strongest form of control, so even though he does his thing well, you normally have to look for a reason to take him over the more powerful masters & more generalist masters in faction (i.e. Som'er and Wong) -  you can spend 3 AP on Brewie debuffing enemies, then activate your killy models to kill them, or you could have Som'er or Wong spend their AP killing a model or two and use your killy models elsewhere. If you look at Zoraida, she does offer some unique stuff to Gremlins on her card, but one of the big reasons imo to take her is access to models like Nurses, Will o' The Wisps, Papa Loco etc which no other master can bring in Gremlins. If 10T got some new Tri-Chi toys that favourably competed with Gremlins at the same price point (or filled a niche that isn't currently filled in Gremlins as a faction) then it would give you a unique reason to take Brewie without buffing his tricks which tbh are very strong (Ca7 vs Wp on Hangover is silly good, especially since you don't care about accuracy modifiers)

[Boomstick]

I agree, more TriChi, especially on Thunders' side. Gives a reason to actually take Running Tab. I like the fermented monks, but they dont offer a lot to Gremlin Brewie. At least in TT he can take the upgrade to bring Westley and whoever else, and now he can bring a terra cotta warrior to swap it out for Misdirection, 

[Math Mathonwy]

Give Brewie Casting Expert. Wouldn't break him, as crazy as it is.

Also, I think that Swill should be more difficult to remove. Maybe an Uprade could make it so that targeting Swilled friendly models would require passing a Wp TN 16 duel or the Action fails and the AP is wasted.

Also, all his Upgrades all suck aside from Binge. The Good Stuff is probably the most lackluster attack a Master can perform! Give him Drunken Gremlin Kung Fu and add +1 to damage across to board. Maybe +2. Hold Their Hair Back is an insane amount of effort to Paralyze someone. Finally, Running Tab - Pay Up seems cool enough but I've never gotten it to work. Maybe it might do something against Titania but that's not very good design. Maybe lower the cost of the Upgrade to zero so there's a slight opportunity cost but not too steep.

[daniello_s]

31 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Give Brewie Casting Expert. Wouldn't break him, as crazy as it is.

Also, I think that Swill should be more difficult to remove. Maybe an Uprade could make it so that targeting Swilled friendly models would require passing a Wp TN 16 duel or the Action fails and the AP is wasted.

Also, all his Upgrades all suck aside from Binge. The Good Stuff is probably the most lackluster attack a Master can perform! Give him Drunken Gremlin Kung Fu and add +1 to damage across to board. Maybe +2. Hold Their Hair Back is an insane amount of effort to Paralyze someone. Finally, Running Tab - Pay Up seems cool enough but I've never gotten it to work. Maybe it might do something against Titania but that's not very good design. Maybe lower the cost of the Upgrade to zero so there's a slight opportunity cost but not too steep.

Hear, hear!

[spooky_squirrel]

Giving him Infiltrator: Tri Chi would bring him in line with the other 10T masters (and Tara in Outcasts). I also would not mind seeing a variant of the Drunken Gremlin Kung Fu on him--but in his fluff he's the "wise old monk who doesn't need to lift a finger because his followers will take care of anything he needs done".

[scottb]

It's been really helpful to read this and try to get my head around Brewmaster - I am thinking of trying him out in a Turf War game tomorrow. Would he work? It is likely that my opponent could take Jakob Lynch, Hungering Darkness, Illuminated x2, Dawn Serpent, Beckoner and maybe Mr Graves (although, that may be the most likely change since he died quiet easily to Francios and Bert last game!). Schemes for this game are Line in the Sand, Assassinate, Bodyguard, Murder Protege, Power Ritual.

Was thinking

Brewie with 'A barkeep never sleeps' (2) and 'A friendly ear' (1)

Trixie (8)

Sammy (7) with Binge (1)

Wesley (3)

This core would allow me to give out Swill and Binge (especially handy against Jakob and his card swapping ability), control initiative and use Obey/Gremlin Lure to push people out of the centre.

Was thinking of taking Fingers (10) to help towards Line in the Sand. That would take me to 32SS and leave 18SS - and that's where I am really stuck as all the advice gets me confused! Any ideas? Suggestions I have seen include: Slop Hauler, Moon Shinobi, Mancha, Burt, Sow, Rooster Rider, Swine-Cursed and of course Bayous. I have also wondered about McTavish to give some ranged support that doesn't randomize.

I am tempted to have Fingers as my sole 10SS model, as that way if my opponent goes for Murder Protege, I know who it will be at!

Also, any ideas for dealing with a Hungering Darkness which is Incorporeal? I guess Swine-Cursed is one option with Magical.

Too many options!!!

[Boomstick]

2 hours ago, scottb said:

That would take me to 32SS and leave 18SS - and that's where I am really stuck as all the advice gets me confused! Any ideas? Suggestions I have seen include: Slop Hauler, Moon Shinobi, Mancha, Burt, Sow, Rooster Rider, Swine-Cursed and of course Bayous.

Also, any ideas for dealing with a Hungering Darkness which is Incorporeal? I guess Swine-Cursed is one option with Magical.

I'll have a more fleshed out idea for you a bit later, but having played against Lynch with Brewie multiple times recently, two thoughts: 1) Poison cannot be reduced, even if it does extra damage from Barkeep Never Sleeps, so get Huggy into the Drinking Contest, Swill him, and let him wither to nothing. Also, Banjonistas! Cast attacks at range, ignoring armor (for the Illuminated), and they're Wp based, so throw the Sow in there and get extra attacks!

[I'm a Teapot!]

45 minutes ago, Boomstick said:

I'll have a more fleshed out idea for you a bit later, but having played against Lynch with Brewie multiple times recently, two thoughts: 1) Poison cannot be reduced, even if it does extra damage from Barkeep Never Sleeps, so get Huggy into the Drinking Contest, Swill him, and let him wither to nothing. Also, Banjonistas! Cast attacks at range, ignoring armor (for the Illuminated), and they're Wp based, so throw the Sow in there and get extra attacks!

Terrifying becomes a really good defense when your up against swilled enemies. Also Banjonistas are really really underrated in a brewie crew! 

[Bazlord_Prime]

4 hours ago, scottb said:

Also, any ideas for dealing with a Hungering Darkness which is Incorporeal? I guess Swine-Cursed is one option with Magical.

You could also look at taking the mercenary "Sue", at 9ss? 

He's got a trigger on his Prison Pistols to autokill Totems (unless they discard 2 Soulstones). Plus he always gets  to that Attack Action, and he's Ruthless, so...pretty much made for taking out Huggy (and/or draining Lynch's Cache while he's at it).

He can also damage himself to draw a card, which will trigger Sammy's Winds of Fate if she's within 6, and he has a bunch of interesting Tactical Actions. "Ring of Fire" might be funny with 2-3 bad guys stuck in the Drinking Contest. It gives out Burning +2 to enemies ending their Activations within 3. And "The Man in Black" will give friendlies within 3 protection against Ca Attacks, so Beckoners will have a harder time Luring, etc.

[scottb]

Thanks already. I have banjonistas and Sow but not Sue. 

[Bazlord_Prime]

47 minutes ago, scottb said:

Thanks already. I have banjonistas and Sow but not Sue. 

The Sow is fantastic. I love her. Good luck!

[scottb]

9 hours ago, Boomstick said:

I'll have a more fleshed out idea for you a bit later, but having played against Lynch with Brewie multiple times recently, two thoughts: 1) Poison cannot be reduced, even if it does extra damage from Barkeep Never Sleeps, so get Huggy into the Drinking Contest, Swill him, and let him wither to nothing. Also, Banjonistas! Cast attacks at range, ignoring armor (for the Illuminated), and they're Wp based, so throw the Sow in there and get extra attacks!

Looking forward to hearing your further thoughts.

[Boomstick]

Here's the list I've been toying with recently.

Declared Faction: Gremlins 
Crew Name: Shindig and Shine 50ss 
Leader: The Brewmaster - Cache:(3)
   A Barkeep Never Sleeps 2ss 
   Binge 1ss 
   Stilts 1ss 
Apprentice Wesley 3ss 
Fingers 10ss 
   Drinking "Problem" 2ss 
   Do Over 1ss 
The Sow 8ss 
Banjonista 5ss 
Banjonista 5ss 
Performer 5ss 
Performer 5ss 
 

Admittedly, with the Banjonistas and Performers, I'm probably over-redundant, but it's done good work thus far. Two highlight games have been against Lynch and Asami. Against Lynch I over-extended Brewie and lost him turn one (Final Debt is gross, and I forgot Stilts wouldn't work against it) but, the rest of the crew took advantage of Don't Mind Me and focused on grabbing Evidence markers and such while the banjonistas played their music and got the sow extra attacks.

Against Asami I had Brewie firing on all cylinders. Shut off Yas turn one, Sow and Banjos killed him top of turn 2. The rest of the game I lost initiative, forcing Asami to go first, teleport away and summon things close to Brewie. Brewie either swilled them or binged them (in the case of obsidian oni) while the performers seduced things and stabbed them with hair pins. It's definitely a list that enjoys less killy schemes (but can do them).

Against Lynch I accepted I was going to loose many models, so I focused on slowing him down while I schemed. 

[scottb]

7 hours ago, Boomstick said:

Here's the list I've been toying with recently.

Declared Faction: Gremlins 
Crew Name: Shindig and Shine 50ss 
Leader: The Brewmaster - Cache:(3)
   A Barkeep Never Sleeps 2ss 
   Binge 1ss 
   Stilts 1ss 
Apprentice Wesley 3ss 
Fingers 10ss 
   Drinking "Problem" 2ss 
   Do Over 1ss 
The Sow 8ss 
Banjonista 5ss 
Banjonista 5ss 
Performer 5ss 
Performer 5ss 

2

As I don't have Performers, can you suggest anything for replacements?

[Boomstick]

That is a tricky question. Performers have a mix of tricks not found elsewhere. The discard enemy scheme markers at range (possibly putting nearby enemies at  to wp & df) as well as interact while engages, AND have a short range lure (more ranged wp to set off the Sow) that has a built in trigger to expunge poison as damage with no upper cap. While I wouldn't call them auto-include in general, I would say if you want to have all Brewie's tools at hand, pick up a box of performers. 

As far as sticking with Gremlins...go super theme-y and throw in either 2 Moon Shinobi or a Shinobi and 1 Akaname. I haven't tried the latter duo out yet personally, but they look like they'd work well together.

But seriously, Performers are great to have on hand as mercenaries, they also have that extra poison fun with Brewie.

[scottb]

Would it work removing the Sow and taking Sammy/Sue with one less Performer? A list I'm toying with for tomorrow is:

Brewie with Never Sleeps, Friendly Ear

Wesley

Sammy with Binge

Fingers

Sue

Banjo

Banjo

Performer

But I am worried about having too few models and little healing. Sue seemed good for Hungering Darkness and giving some range attacks and Ca defense. Sammy with Binge allows Brewie to focus on Swill/Obey. Seemed sensible to take 2 Banjonistas so that they get their trigger. This is my first game with Brewie though, so feedback welcome.

The encounter is Turf War with Line in Sand, Distract, Protect Territory, Bodyguard, Plant Evidence. A lot of good schemes to choose from, what works best for Brewie and/or the above list (whom I'm taking mostly to try out)?

[Nukemouse]

Running Tab, Moon Shinobi and Whiskey Golem all got 1SS discounts. Disappointed to see that none of his upgrades like liver damage got changed.

[Jesy Blue]

The Good Stuff is just not... good.  A 1/2/4 damage track, with a 5 Ml, that gives no conditions, has no triggers, even on positive flips to hit and damage, is not even worth a single soul stone upgrade slot.  On a master, I wouldn't even take it if it was free.  If it was free and didn't cost an upgrade slot, I would first check and see if there was any other free open slot upgrades before even considering taking it, it's that bad.  

The Good Stuff doesn't need a change, it needs a complete replacement.  Also, using The Brewmaster for melee on purpose I think is using the Brewmaster wrong.... but that's just my opinion.

[Nukemouse]

3 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

The Good Stuff is just not... good.  A 1/2/4 damage track, with a 5 Ml, that gives no conditions, has no triggers, even on positive flips to hit and damage, is not even worth a single soul stone upgrade slot.  On a master, I wouldn't even take it if it was free.  If it was free and didn't cost an upgrade slot, I would first check and see if there was any other free open slot upgrades before even considering taking it, it's that bad.  

The Good Stuff doesn't need a change, it needs a complete replacement.  Also, using The Brewmaster for melee on purpose I think is using the Brewmaster wrong.... but that's just my opinion.

Look at Tara's old dead of winter, it got an entire new ability stapled to it. Something useful could have been added to it, instead they chose not to do that.

[Haagrum]

2 hours ago, Nukemouse said:

Look at Tara's old dead of winter, it got an entire new ability stapled to it. Something useful could have been added to it, instead they chose not to do that.

True, but that was also part of a bigger overhaul of Tara and her crew. Brewmaster doesn't need much more than he already has on his card to be effective. Binge is the only auto-include for my lists, and even then, I think I use it with Wesley more often than with Brewmaster.

Nevertheless, it'd be nice if The Good Stuff and Hold Their Hair Back were ever worth taking.

[daniello_s]

Brewie doesn't have upgrades except these 2 new ones from the last book. Unless Wyrd decides to re-write those nothing will change in this matter.

[Jesy Blue]

3 hours ago, daniello_s said:

Brewie doesn't have upgrades except these 2 new ones from the last book. Unless Wyrd decides to re-write those nothing will change in this matter.

Well, and Running Tab if you're doing Ten Thunders (or if you really want the Fermented River Monks and/or Tanuki in your Gremlin crew.... for some crazy reason).

 

I used Binge all the time, and it's useful and good..... but fighting for those three upgrade spaces is difficult. 

Hold Their Hair Back gets rid of the target's poison for no action, when Drinking Party will technically do the same thing AND damage them for a 0 action.... why would you do that?  Unless you know you're going up against some Relentless crew, there is no point.