Desolate Souls vs Shieldbearers

[Erorior]

As in the title, I'd like some help in that specific interaction with the ability of the shieldbearers which allows them to drop a marker and heal again.

 

Desolate soul says: "After reducing an enemy model to 0 Wounds, summon an Abomination into base contact with it before removing it. The target does not drop Corpse or Scrap Markers"

 

Would the trigger summon an abomination when reducing a shield bearer to 0 wounds the first time? If yes; would the shield bearer drop a corpse marker or not? It is the "before removing it" that leaves me wondering how the interaction would work. An input?

 

 

[solkan]

Colette's Death Defying causes the same sort of problem with Desolate Soul.

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Df/Wp (t) Death Defying: When this model is reduced to 0 Wounds, it may be placed in base contact with target friendly model with a cost of 5 or more within 8". Sacrifice the target and then heal an amount of damage equal to the target's remaining Wounds plus one.

and likewise for Bete Noir surviving getting reduced to 0 wounds because of healing.

Bad Juju's Eternal is a different sort of problem:

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Eternal: This model may begin the game buried instead of being deployed. When this model is killed (not sacrificed), it is not killed. Instead, bury this model. Remove all Conditions and heal all damage on this model.

So after Bad Juju gets reduced to 0 wounds, it's not getting to the same "removed" either.

The 'removed' in question, after all, is this one:

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If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed.

 

So multiple ways to survive getting reduced to 0 wounds, it seems like they'd all have to not work for the same reason:  "before removing [the model]" never happens.

[solkan]

Upon further reflection, I am forced to reverse my position on the result on the ground that the phrase "before removing" does not refer to timing.  What that phrase means, in context is "even though/if you're removing the model."  And that phrase is present is that most wicked and misguided sentence in the rulebook:

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If the model is reduced to 0 or fewer Wounds it is immediately removed from the game as killed.

This sentence ends up being the least true or least accurate sentence in the rulebook.  I'll refer to this as the Misguided Model Killing Rule.  To start with, if an "after damaging" trigger is in effect, then the model's removal is delayed until the trigger resolution step.

So there end up being triggers like this one:

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Condemned: After killing an enemy model, summon a Gaki into base contact with the target before removing it.

or

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Pyre: After killing the target, a 50mm Pyre Marker may be placed in base contact with it before removing it. This Marker is Ht 5, blocking, hazardous terrain. At the end of every Turn remove all Pyre Markers.

or the Consuming Flame trigger:

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The Consuming Flames: After reducing a non-Peon enemy model to 0 Wounds, this model may discard one Soulstone to summon a Witching Stalker into base contact with the model before removing it. The Witchling Stalker suffers 3 damage that may not be reduced.

or the Desolate Warping trigger:

Quote

Desolate Warping: After reducing an enemy model to 0 Wounds, summon an Abomination into base contact with it before removing it. The target does not drop Corpse or Scrap Markers.

Look at the Condemned trigger.  It's a trigger that goes in to effect when it kills an enemy model, and the instruction without the words "before removing it" would essentially be completely the same without the Misguided Model Killing Rule, and the resulting "But I already removed the model, how can I place anything in base contact with it?" 

Because there are actions like Spirit Whispers:

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(1) Spirit Whispers: Until the end of the Turn, when another non-Peon Spirit is killed within 6, place a Scheme Marker in base contact with it before removing it.

In any reasonable context, outside of a rules forum slap fight, those last three words are redundant.  Because in order for the rest of the effect to be sensible, of course the Scheme Marker is going to be placed there.  Otherwise, you'd have to mark where the model was, or otherwise go to ludicrous measures to follow the instructions.

What really reinforces this is the After Damaging trigger rules:

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•After damaging: These effects happen after Step 5 and only if the target suffers 1 or more damage from the Action. These effects are resolved before the damaged model is removed if it was killed by the damage.

Reinforced by FAQ entries, those words "before the damaged model is removed" don't result in the After Damaging trigger's effects being resolved early.  What they result in is delaying removal of the killed model until the After Damaging trigger is resolved.

In other words, the phrase "before removing it" isn't specifying timing.  What it's doing is emphasizing that if the effect is still resolved even though the target could otherwise have been removed (or even though the object in question is obviously going to get removed first if you just followed the instruction in the order specified).  All because of the Misguided Model Killing Rule. 

 

So, back to the original poster's question, what happens for Desolate Warping being applied to a Shield Bearer that doesn't have a Soulbound upgrade?

• The model gets reduced to 0 wounds, satisfying the trigger.  So an Abomination is summoned.
• The clause in Desolate Warping overrules the clause about placing a Corpse Marker, so no Corpse Marker is placed.
• The Shieldbearer ends not killed, and attaches a Soulbound upgrade to itself.
• And, due to General Timing, the Abomination is summoned before the Shieldbearer attaches the upgrade.

 

[Adran]

They are FAq'd to be at the same time, but something triggering on a model being reduced to 0 wounds does not care if the model was ever killed or not. Likewise it wouldn't trigger if the model was killed by decapitate, because you were never at 0 wounds. 

I think they have chosen the phrasing of Chosen to try and make it clearer that it is what happens instead of being killed as opposed to the old phrasing where it said when you are killed you are not killed. which led to questions about things that trigger on being killed. 

[Rabbitknight]

I'm inclined to say summon, because of the wording "reduce to 0" instead of "kill or sacrifice"

[Fetid Strumpet]

I would weigh in on no summon. The weakest reason being it goes against intent. We know the model dies and becomes the abomination. In the instances that were mentioned we know that isn't what's happening. It's a weak argument I know, just mentioning because of completeness.

I'd say the stronger argument has been mentioned, as part of the summon clause you must be removing the model in order to place it before doing so. The models in question are never going to be removed from the circumstances listed. Since they were never going to be removed, there can't be a situation that occurs before doing so.

[Rabbitknight]

20 minutes ago, solkan said:

Please explain when the summoning would take place in the sequence of events, since you believe it would happen.  The player controlling the Shield Bearer is looking at their upgrades, and the placement of the summoned model may influence their choice of upgrades.

In other words, when does "before removing" happen when no model is being removed? 

I would say that's dependant on the wording of individual models.

Collette for example has the same timing  a trigger with the timing of "when reduced to 0 wounds" so it would become a timing question of applying triggers, thus defender's trigger first.

Sheildbearers have a replacement ability for "when killed" so the summon would happen first, then when you kill and remove the model you instead apply its replacement effect, in this case healing all wounds, attaching an upgrade, and dropping a corpse.

Edited September 30, 2016 by Rabbitknight
Unnecessary additional information

[santaclaws01]

3 hours ago, SunTsu said:

Sorry, but in this case I don't back the letter rules reading.

I think that, in many cases the rules in Malifaux are bad written. This is surely one of these cases. But nevertheless the intent is very clear.

The clause "before removing" isn't defined by rules in a clear way. As I read it, its meaning can be different in a different context.

While in other contexts the before removing clause is just a time definition to let the rules works (like the after damaging triggers) , here as I can see is part of the requirements of the action. Why? Because everything in that rule is written by implication that the target model will be removed from play. The last sentence of that rule (the model don't drop scrap/corpse marker) is enlightening. It's not written "don't drop... even if killed". It's written just don't drop, the implication is that the model will leave the play. Why ever a model that will remain in play would ever drop a corpse/scrap?

Surely, it is a very poorly written rule and needs to be clarified through an official channel. Really, I'd like to see clarified all the summon on 0 wound situation once for all, so to be consistent with entire ruleset and intentions.

Just my two cents.

Edited for clarification.

Models can be removed without dropping markers as well, should they then not summon an Abom when they get removed? There are no "implied conditions" in malifaux for something to go off. It lists the condition, what happens if that condition is met, and then ways to handle certain situations that can arise as a result of that condition being met. The rule to not drop corpse or scrap markers is there so that two Aboms can't be summoned off of 1 model dying.

[Eshadie]

Just had this come up in a game and came here to read this thread. The big thing with Chosen vs. Desolate Warping is the use of WHEN vs WOULD.
 

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Chosen: If this model would be killed and it does not have a soulbound upgrade attached, it is not killed. It heals all damage and attaches a Soulbound upgrade ignoring all restrictions, then places a corpse marker in base contact with itself.

WOULD implies that it is a check before the model takes the damage and is reduced to 0 wounds. As in "will this damage kill it?" "if yes, do the following instead".

I believe "Chosen" is one of the few if not only abilities that doesn't say "when killed", "when sacrificed", "when reduced to 0 wounds".
I could be wrong and just looking too much at the semantics of the grammar choice with my IT logic brain, but that's my two sense, and I hope they make it clear in the FAQ because it is a weird choice of wording on this particular ability.

[Ludvig]

The faq to Shroedinger's Huggy backs the idea that the shieldbearer can go back and void the summon because the model was.never dead even though it happens after the desolate warping trigger.

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

The faq to Shroedinger's Huggy backs the idea that the shieldbearer can go back and void the summon because the model was.never dead even though it happens after the desolate warping trigger.

Desolate warping does not care if the model was killed.

[Ludvig]

9 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Desolate warping does not care if the model was killed.

I could swear killed and reduced to 0 wounds has been ruled to be the same timing point by some other faq but I guess you are right about them still not being the same as a qualifier for effects. Doesn't that settle this?

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

I could swear killed and reduced to 0 wounds has been ruled to be the same timing point by some other faq but I guess you are right about them still not being the same as a qualifier for effects. Doesn't that settle this?

Killed happens immediately at 0 yeah, so they're the same timing point, but they're not the same condition.

[solkan]

On 2016/9/29 at 7:42 PM, Rabbitknight said:

I'm inclined to say summon, because of the wording "reduce to 0" instead of "kill or sacrifice"

Please explain when the summoning would take place in the sequence of events, since you believe it would happen.  The player controlling the Shield Bearer is looking at their upgrades, and the placement of the summoned model may influence their choice of upgrades.

In other words, when does "before removing" happen when no model is being removed? 

Edit:  Upon further reflection, my opinion on this matter was opinion is incorrect, and I disavow this post.  Which is unfortunate because it got voted up a point. 

Edited October 1, 2016 by solkan

[SunTsu]

Sorry, but in this case I don't back the letter rules reading.

I think that, in many cases the rules in Malifaux are bad written. This is surely one of these cases. But nevertheless the intent is very clear.

The clause "before removing" isn't defined by rules in a clear way. As I read it, its meaning can be different in a different context.

While in other contexts the before removing clause is just a time definition to let the rules works (like the after damaging triggers) , here as I can see is part of the requirements of the action. Why? Because everything in that rule is written by implication that the target model will be removed from play. The last sentence of that rule (the model don't drop scrap/corpse marker) is enlightening. It's not written "don't drop... even if killed". It's written just don't drop, the implication is that the model will leave the play. Why ever a model that will remain in play would ever drop a corpse/scrap?

Surely, it is a very poorly written rule and needs to be clarified through an official channel. Really, I'd like to see clarified all the summon on 0 wound situation once for all, so to be consistent with entire ruleset and intentions.

Just my two cents.

Edited for clarification.

[santaclaws01]

4 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I would weigh in on no summon. The weakest reason being it goes against intent. We know the model dies and becomes the abomination. In the instances that were mentioned we know that isn't what's happening. It's a weak argument I know, just mentioning because of completeness.

I'd say the stronger argument has been mentioned, as part of the summon clause you must be removing the model in order to place it before doing so. The models in question are never going to be removed from the circumstances listed. Since they were never going to be removed, there can't be a situation that occurs before doing so.

I would say if the intent was for when the model is killed, it would say when the model is killed. Using the wording it has now if it was only supposed to go off when a model is killed is just unnecessarily clunky. As for the fact that the model isn't being removed, I don't think that causes the Abom to not get summoned. The condition is when a model is reduced to 0 wounds. Before the model is removed is just giving it a timing that happens before a killed model is removed. In the cases of models that don't get removed like Colette with her trigger and Shieldbearers, just summon it when the model is reduced to 0 wounds.

[santaclaws01]

17 hours ago, solkan said:

Please explain when the summoning would take place in the sequence of events, since you believe it would happen.  The player controlling the Shield Bearer is looking at their upgrades, and the placement of the summoned model may influence their choice of upgrades.

In other words, when does "before removing" happen when no model is being removed? 

We do it when the model is reduced to 0 wounds, and defer to the General Timing callout for when two things happen at the same time.