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Sandeep experiences so far?


Anung Un Rama

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I put my Sandeep crew together today and undercoated them.

So whats the verdict thus far? What does his crew look like normally? What is the theoryfaux at the moment about him?

Im thinking about a gunline of oxfordian mages with the captain and some wind gamin to run schemes. I would be very interested to hear others ideas

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I haven't done the Academic side of him yet and try as I might I keep having games where he needs the Visions upgrade where I really want to try the Commands upgrade, lol.  The Visions upgrade is really nice and while it's not killy it makes schemes much easier to complete yourself and harder for the enemy.  His Incorporeal upgrade is very nice, especially with someone like Howard (I had a game against the Viks where being Incorporeal let him charge through some models in the way and take out some back line models), Unaligned Sage seems nice but I haven't tried it.  Arcane Reservoir and / or some way of drawing more cards seems basically mandatory, I've done AR and brought Sue in all my games so far for the 8 card hand.  His summoning is pretty flexible but the penalties on the upgrades can really be a pain.  Wind upgrade seems like it should always be for a Metal or Wind Gamin, they don't mind the penalty as much at least.  Hope you have fun with him!

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Our local Sandeep player has so far been pretty all in Academics. Running him with 3 Oxfordians, Valdeictorian and Librarian. He's doing pretty well smashing opponents so far. I still like hte idea of silent ones with him to ice mirror his CAs through Acolytes. Haven't put it on the table yet though

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I've been running him mostly with Unaligned Sage and the Commands upgrade; as to the crew I've been bringing 3 Oxfordian Mages (with their new 0 cost upgrade they are all kinds of awesome) and an Ice Gamin (great to summon Banasuva off of as it has 5 wounds instead of 4 like all of the other gamin), I've been playing around with the make up of the rest of the crew but Joss and Cassandra (both with warding runes) have been making frequent appearances. While unaligned sage is handy that it lets you bring along out of faction Academics, Academics being able to utilize Beacon outside of LOS of Sandeep allows the crew to spread more than they would otherwise. The biggest reason I have found to take To Command Another Plane over To Behold Another World is for the Commands in Wind upgrade--the model with that upgrade can't make attack actions but all friendly models within :aura 3 gain :+fate to all attack actions. I love to put this onto a Metal Gamin (who doesn't mind not being able to make attacks) and all those :+fate really make for some powerful attacking. I've found this works especially well on strategies where models like to be grouped up (Turf War, Extraction, Guard the Stash). I need to give the incorporeal upgrade a go, seems like it could be really handy but I haven't found a spot for it in the crew yet.

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4 hours ago, Guslado said:

I need to give the incorporeal upgrade a go, seems like it could be really handy but I haven't found a spot for it in the crew yet.

I think one of the best uses of this would be to make Joss incorporeal in a situation you need something that can just tank an entire (non casting) team and come out the other side. With his armor, it takes a 7 damage hit to do more than 1 wound, which he could then stone away if needed. Warding Runes gives counterspell, no conditions, regen, he could use Sandeep's cast that heals if needed, or bring along a silent one or librarian.

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7 minutes ago, BFOmega said:

I think one of the best uses of this would be to make Joss incorporeal in a situation you need something that can just tank an entire (non casting) team and come out the other side. With his armor, it takes a 7 damage hit to do more than 1 wound, which he could then stone away if needed. Warding Runes gives counterspell, no conditions, regen, he could use Sandeep's cast that heals if needed, or bring along a silent one or librarian.

Yeah, I enjoy how potentially tough it makes Joss to put down and the added benefit of letting him charge through other models. Downside is that getting it off takes up Sandeep's (0) for the turn, which I tend to frequently use for his teleport to get Sandeep to where he needs to be. I'll give it a go (probably tonight) and see if I like how it plays.

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Handing out Incorporeal is fun. 

I had a fun assassination run with Howard. He had Imbued Energies. I had Sandeep give him Incorporeal. On Howards activation, he dropped Energies to gain Fast. Nimble action to walk thru a building he was hiding behind. 0 action to use Sandeep's 6 inch Placement. Pitch a card to Flurry. Attack again with the Fast AP. Four attacks with minimum 4 damage is oh so tasty. "Atrocious" is how my opponent described the onslaught haha

Turns out I was a big fat cheater in the above encounter. Incorporeal is still fun on a beater though!

Edited by MunkyMuddFace
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1 minute ago, MunkyMuddFace said:

Handing out Incorporeal is fun. 

I had a fun assassination run with Howard. He had Imbued Energies. I had Sandeep give him Incorporeal. On Howards activation, he dropped Energies to gain Fast. Nimble action to walk thru a building he was hiding behind. 0 action to use Sandeep's 6 inch Placement. Pitch a card to Flurry. Attack again with the Fast AP. Four attacks with minimum 4 damage is oh so tasty. "Atrocious" is how my opponent described the onslaught haha

Howard isn't a minion or academic, so he can't use the placement 0 action.

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Just now, MunkyMuddFace said:

Handing out Incorporeal is fun. 

I had a fun assassination run with Howard. He had Imbued Energies. I had Sandeep give him Incorporeal. On Howards activation, he dropped Energies to gain Fast. Nimble action to walk thru a building he was hiding behind. 0 action to use Sandeep's 6 inch Placement. Pitch a card to Flurry. Attack again with the Fast AP. Four attacks with minimum 4 damage is oh so tasty. "Atrocious" is how my opponent described the onslaught haha

Sadly Howard can't use Sandeep's (0) 6" placement--at the very bottom of that action is says "Only Academics and Minions may take this Action." Very easy to miss that part of the action (I missed that part myself and went on a similar assassination mission with Joss), but I can see why they did that (and the Valedictorian or Bansuva can still use it!)

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4 minutes ago, Guslado said:

Sadly Howard can't use Sandeep's (0) 6" placement--at the very bottom of that action is says "Only Academics and Minions may take this Action." Very easy to miss that part of the action (I missed that part myself and went on a similar assassination mission with Joss), but I can see why they did that (and the Valedictorian or Bansuva can still use it!)

 

6 minutes ago, BFOmega said:

Howard isn't a minion or academic, so he can't use the placement 0 action.

Gah! Thanks for pointing that out! 

I feel like a big fat cheater now... Though, I did only get that off once. The other time, my positioning was off, so did not do the 0 for placement. Incorporeal with nimble and Flurry and Fast AP, is still awully brutal.

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6 minutes ago, MunkyMuddFace said:

 

Gah! Thanks for pointing that out! 

I feel like a big fat cheater now... Though, I did only get that off once. The other time, my positioning was off, so did not do the 0 for placement. Incorporeal with nimble and Flurry and Fast AP, is still awully brutal.

If it makes you feel any better, I pulled this move in a tournament (which I ended up winning) and didn't realize that Joss couldn't use that action until I wrote a tourney recap on my blog and then got called out on my mistake in A Wyrd Place :unsure:

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7 minutes ago, Guslado said:

If it makes you feel any better, I pulled this move in a tournament (which I ended up winning) and didn't realize that Joss couldn't use that action until I wrote a tourney recap on my blog and then got called out on my mistake in A Wyrd Place :unsure:

Oof, yeah. That's rough. It was just a casual smallish game, so nothing critical. I think the karmic justice was immediate. When I tried that run, it was just my second time out with Sandeep. It was late in the turn, and I had no hand. Of the four attacks, only two landed anyways. Heh, and on top of that, the time I played it legit without the 0 for placement, I hit the Red Joker on the third attack. I swear this game has a consciousness sometimes... 

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On the converse side of what we've seen above regarding your Sandeep experiences so far--if you have played as him or against him, how have you seen Sandeep effectively countered? What have you tired with him that didn't work out so well in a Sandeep crew? How are people reacting to playing against Sandeep?

In my experience I haven't really seen him countered effectively unless he is overextended and out of soulstones. As to ineffectively play on my part, focusing too much on summoning seems like a good way to burn through your stones and leave him without cards to attack/defend effectively; I summon a little bit early (usually the Metal Gamin with Commands in Wind first, and preferably as an off-activation summon), and then try to activate Sandeep late in the turn and drop Banasuva in when they least expect him. Any games where I tried to do much more summoning than that and I found myself stone and care starved.

As to people's reactions, I have consistently had startled reactions at how effective he and his crew are at doing pretty much anything. I'm surprised that I haven't heard much more complaining on the forums or elsewhere at home strong he is (I've heard the comment "How did this guy get through playtesting like this?" on multiple occasions). How have your opponents (or if you have run against him, you) reacted so far to playing against Sandeep? For how effective he is this early on, I'm surprised I haven't heard more about it.

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3 minutes ago, Guslado said:

As to people's reactions, I have consistently had startled reactions at how effective he and his crew are at doing pretty much anything. I'm surprised that I haven't heard much more complaining on the forums or elsewhere at home strong he is (I've heard the comment "How did this guy get through playtesting like this?" on multiple occasions). How have your opponents (or if you have run against him, you) reacted so far to playing against Sandeep? For how effective he is this early on, I'm surprised I haven't heard more about it.

 

No one in my local meta has put him on the table yet (I've got the crew, but not assembled yet), but up the freeway there's an Arcanist player dominating their meta with Sandeep and Company. When some of their players came down here for a tournament, they were talking about how rough their experiences were against Sandeep. They watered down their saltiness with the mindset of "he's new, he seems rough because I don't have enough experience against him"--similar to what I remind myself when Asami is shoving so many Oni down my throat that I have no idea how to guarantee scoring: more practice will show me where the weaknesses lie.

That being said, I've picked up some Sanctioned Spellcasters already and will be acquiring a Freikorps Librarian or two to run some academics up the table. I'll have to think carefully about the full composition of that crew, however, since Banasuva and other summoned gamin can be really useful.

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6 hours ago, spooky_squirrel said:

 

No one in my local meta has put him on the table yet (I've got the crew, but not assembled yet), but up the freeway there's an Arcanist player dominating their meta with Sandeep and Company. When some of their players came down here for a tournament, they were talking about how rough their experiences were against Sandeep. They watered down their saltiness with the mindset of "he's new, he seems rough because I don't have enough experience against him"--similar to what I remind myself when Asami is shoving so many Oni down my throat that I have no idea how to guarantee scoring: more practice will show me where the weaknesses lie.

That being said, I've picked up some Sanctioned Spellcasters already and will be acquiring a Freikorps Librarian or two to run some academics up the table. I'll have to think carefully about the full composition of that crew, however, since Banasuva and other summoned gamin can be really useful.

Yeah, I think the he's new and people are still figuring out how to deal with him thing definitely comes into play, but I have found that I am playing him more effectively more quickly than I have when I was just starting out with other masters. I don't know if it's because he's an easier master to learn or I'm just more experienced now and thus pick up the ins and outs of a master more quickly than I used to. Probably a combination of all of the above and wonderful information from the hive-mind that is the internet ;) Whatever it is, I am having a lot of fun with Sandeep.

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I think he's a solid master with a ton of utility but he's not without his own set of weaknesses though.

For one thing I don't think he holds up too well in combat. Our current roster of masters sport some pretty impressive defensive triggers in case things go south and you find yourself on the pointy end of a Viktoria or Lady J. Ramos, Colette and Mei all have triggers that allow them to push/place away. Marcus can shrug off damage to nearby beasts and Raspy can shutdown activations. Now i'm not suggesting he's fragile or anything, but if the right model finds his way into Sandeep, his Df5 and I2W won't stand up too long.

I also find Sandeep to be very resource intensive. Masks in particular seem to be a very sought after suit as they not only power his summons and teleport, but they also have to fuel other models wishing to use his teleport (as well as a great trigger on his other (0) action), which often don't have the luxury of soulstones. This coupled with the various discard effects he and some of his crew have make cards very important. The positive to this however is that there is rarely a bad hand with Sandeep as he can find a use for just about any card. 

Otherwise he's pretty damn versatile. Lots of mobility, a decent ranged attack, can be effective in melee and has some great scheme options. He can play aggressive or supportive and can switch up styles on the fly which is where his real strength lies in my opinion. 

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4 hours ago, Jordon said:

Otherwise he's pretty damn versatile. Lots of mobility, a decent ranged attack, can be effective in melee and has some great scheme options. He can play aggressive or supportive and can switch up styles on the fly which is where his real strength lies in my opinion. 

Not mentioning that he's able to run almost every model he's allowed to hire. His style and support abilities don't ask for a specified range of models. (The academic thing is not that important IMO, the upgrade allows him to hire out-of-faction academics if need be, but that's marginal.) So the most liberal hiring pool in the Arcanist faction is added to his already versatile playstyle.

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Has anyone used any of the Students (Steel/Sinew/Viscera) with Sandeep? We could easily solve their mobility issues since Sandeep gives them a teleport. I know they're usually not great hires, but they genuinely seem like a lot of fun if you know what you're up against so you can pick the right one. 

Also a few people on the other boards are pointing fingers at Sandeep as being the strongest of the wave 4 masters. Are there any more insights from our Sandeep players about his perceived strengths and potential weaknesses?

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I just finished putting together Sanctioned Spellcasters, and I'm looking forward to using Beacon (with Tomes as much as possible) and Collar to get extra work out of them. Since Sandeep works off of Masks, Oxfordian Mages can build their own Tomes in, it leaves me more opportunities to cheat in a Tome from my hand to get that extra bit of work. I've only seen the Students across the table from me in Ressers summoning and am not a huge fan of the look/feel of many of the undead models (exceptions exist, like Titania's crew), so I haven't put as much thought into them.

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Well, yes, they're an acquired taste as far as aethetics go, especially when you're used to Arcanist metal and robes. I would convert my own trio of students if I were to play them frequently. I already have a heavily kit-bashed Valedictorian from some 40k parts ready to go for Mr Desai once his box is released.

In terms of actual gameplay, the Students are usually terrible, unaffordable hires, because most Resser masters can't fix their mobility issues, and want expensive support pieces (Mortimer, Phillip, Emissary etc) to help them do their summoning (coincidentally, that summoning might well include summoning Students - Nicodem/Molly)

But with Sandeep... he significantly boosts their mobility, give them extra spells to work so they're not as one dimensional, and each of them make great use of either surplus suits for their attack triggers. His mechanic to replenish cards when Academics discard them (Flurry) is another way of getting more value from each individual card. 

I really want to see how they go with him. I can't help but feel like the three of them could each be very interesting counter picks to an opponent's declared factions. I'd love to hear about any experiences Sandeep players have had with them.

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That is true. To be fair, not all enemies have triggers, so it's not always a huge loss, plus we also have the The Mind Among The Senses that Sandeep or another model can use to pull Students up the board or pull something they want to Flurry into closer to them. 

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I've tried playing the student of viscera as well as the valedictorian. I don't think I'd ever hire a student of steel or sinew simply because as they game evolves, it's getting harder to predict what the opponent will bring and if you choose wrong, your left with what should have been an okay model (constructs or undead respectively) to something far less than worth it's points. 

The viscera is the only one that you can typically rely somewhat on as even in the most extreme lists, you'll generally have some sort of living model. With it's ability to slither and sandeep's teleport, they can cover a lot of ground. Also with having access to metal gamin you can somewhat compensate their abysmal stats (provided you can actually keep them in the protection bubble). Also giving incorporeal is another way to keep them around longer. All that being said, I still think there are better options at the 8ss mark including the new Vidiya Guard, who easily outclass these guys in damage output. 

The Valedictorian is totally legit though. 

As for commenting on Sandeep's power level, I just think he's a complete "left field" master that is pretty unique to pretty much any other master and probably the most unique of the wave 4 masters in my personal opinion. It'll take time not only to figure out how to play him, but also how to play against him. He's the ultimate toolbox and along side Colette, could probably be dropped blindly into most games and do alright.

I mentioned it before, but I honestly don't think he's all that survivable, at least not compared to the bulk of the Arcanist masters as he has no escape plan or method to avoid damage. If you catch him after he's activated, he can really suffer as Df5 and I2W don't hold up well to sustained attacks or high min damage. Marcus, Raspy, Colette, Mei and Ramos all have ways to either push away or avoid damage but Sandeep has to play smart or he could get himself into some trouble.

Overall I'd rank him in the middle to upper in terms of power in our faction. Personally I feel like Colette is still the queen with Ramos being a close second. I might place him third, but I feel like a seasoned Marcus player can probably do better, so I'd put him smack dab in the middle. Of course that just my personal experience with only a few games with him thus far.

 

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