Rate Crews in Tier 2.0

[TeddyBear]

hello everyone,

i open this thread, to ask you, to make your own personal rating of the power (considering every aspect: versatily, game difficulty etc. etc. no personal preferences)

of all crews (maybe including new ones)

I'm sure that someone will not approve this question (i know it depends by schemes and strategies and especially by players..)

 

i ask this also to allow those who are approaching for the first time to game , to get an idea..

i don't have a personal list because unfortunately i haven't had the opportunity to confrontation with many crews..

Thank you very much (and sorry as always for my english)

 

 

[dancater]

This is an incredibly complicated perhaps nigh on impossible question as it is so dependent on master, the upgrades, crew selection, opponent and strat/scheme pool.  In addition terrain and set-up plays another factor.  With that many variables the question quickly becomes moot.

I primarily play Arcanist's and I will say this much:

• Given no idea of strat/schemes and opponent the most flexible and always useful Arcanist master is Marcus, depending on upgrades he can smash face or support, his pool of hires is massive and very, very flexible.
• The best block enemy and beginner play master is Rasputina.  She has her weaknesses but largely her crew is immune to horror duels which are a real killer in certain games and her stand back and blast schtick is pretty simple to learn. 
• The other Arcanist masters are all very, very good but they all have real strength's and weaknesses and tricks you need to know to really maximize them.

Crew wise its even worse as synergy and other variables really complicate everything.

• Henchman wise Arcanist have an amazing pool with Cassandra, Joss, The Captain all easily first tier and Firestarter excellent for points.  The other Henchmen are also all very good but more master/crew/game dependent.
• We also have an amazing array of Enforcers and Minions again all depending on crew and game dynamics.  But Howard Langston, Performers, Large Arachnids, Malifaux Raptors, December Acolytes, Silent Ones are all particularly noteworthy.  The Mechanical Rider is a truly amazing piece and renowned for verging on broken.  Arcane Effigy with Burning and condition removal as a 4SS construct is also first tier.
• In addition to this you have excellent mercenaries available to everyone and in some cases Arcanist's have special synergy with certain hired guns.  Of note with Hannah and Arcane Reservoir we can 8 card hand its expensive but nasty.  Johan/Johanna is superb in any crew but their M&SU buffs make the model really shine with certain Arcanist builds.  We have several ways to gain real advantage from the already superb Freikorps Trapper and Librarian models.  
• Finally there are Beasts and Foundry models available out of Faction to Marcus and Mei Feng. 

So as you can see the question scope is functionally impossible.  If you are restricting your question to only the base crew boxes...  that is realistic.  In Arcanist's I'd rate as follows, regarding utility in building the faction, the raw box crew power is in brackets next to the master.

1. Ramos (8 ironically because as a summoner this box is nearly unplayable without additions) has Joss and Howard which are superb and the Mechanical Spiders which are good, critical for Ramos and useful in many other master builds.
2. Colette (2 solid box but needs more punch) you get Cassandra and the Performers both excellent in any crew.
3. Ironsides (1 ironically as The Captain and Ox Mages make box alone very good) box gives you the excellent The Captain henchman and the Ox Mages got a buff recently which makes them very useful and also they are Academics for Sandeep.
4. Kaeris (6 really not the strongest build out of the box, Kaeris wants different models) as her box includes the Firestarter and in addition, less useful but still OK (as summons in particular) the Fire Gamin.
5. Mei Feng (3 a great box), sadly her henchman Kang is TT and Mei only but the Railworkers are great models and constructs
6. Rasputina (4 its a OK box and can work but Raspy really, really wants multiple other outside the box models) as her box includes Ice Gamin which are a useful summon and maybe the Ice Golem, these are constructs and Frozen Heart so can be interesting in certain builds.
7. Sandeep (7 needs summons, Kudra is limited, Poison Gamin weak in Gamin power curve, minimal Academics) is OK Kudra has potential in certain builds and the Poison Gamin can work in poison builds and as beasts and constructs.
8. Marcus (5 its a strong box but really needs some variety, Marcus can crew so many things his box simply is very limiting for the beastmaster) simply put his box is a collection of big nasty beast options which is great for him but has minimal utility elsewhere in Arcanist builds.

[Franchute]

He is just asking to rank masters, isnt he? Not the basic crew boxes right?

[Golden Apple]

On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 7:54 PM, TeddyBear said:

hello everyone,

i open this thread, to ask you, to make your own personal rating of the power (considering every aspect: versatily, game difficulty etc. etc. no personal preferences)

of all crews (maybe including new ones)

15 hours ago, Franchute said:

He is just asking to rank masters, isnt he? Not the basic crew boxes right?

All crews. As such, I declare this request completely crazypants.
 

On Saturday, September 24, 2016 at 9:50 PM, dancater said:

This is an incredibly complicated perhaps nigh on impossible question as it is so dependent on master, the upgrades, crew selection, opponent and strat/scheme pool.  In addition terrain and set-up plays another factor.  With that many variables the question quickly becomes moot.

In addition to dancater's extremely valid list of difficulties I add this: subjectivity.

Some people just gel better with some masters/hemchmen/enforcers/minions/peons in the Guild/Arcanists/Outcasts/Gremlins/Ten Thunders/Ressurectionists/Neverborn. Let alone the master-as-faction 'toons like Marcus or Leveticus... I'm listing everything to try and show the enormity of this request. You're basically trying to condense the majority of the forums into one thread. It's bananas!

[TeddyBear]

@dancater: thanks for your answer, i understand that surely is impossibile give an answer to my question; and often english don't help me to understand what i write.. 

Then i would try to change my question: in big tournaments or major tournaments of malifaux what are the crews who make best results? (i imagine that in different periods there are different results) instead on your personal experience?

Thanks again

 

[dancater]

Again this is a tricky question as different metas (areas/regions/groups) have very different outlooks.

For example I know a group where Gremlins are renowned as being a total nightmare to play, in particular Brewmaster and Ulix.  Ironically travel a few hundred kilometers south of there and Gremlins are regarded as useless.  I know a group where a Tara crew combo a player runs is considered unbeatable, I've heard other folks say she is not worth much.  Pandora I've been told by some is a horrible struggle to win against, I have crushed her in the games I've played.  Many, many players say Lucius in Guild is useless, he is one of my favorite non-Arcanist masters and I rate him.

I wish we could help Teddy and I commiserate with English as a second language and the problems that causes, this is not that problem.  The key element here is you are asking a question of such complexity and (as Golden noted) subjectivity that it is impossible to answer. 

There is an old adage from the silly game Rock-Paper-Scissors that goes "Paper is balanced but Rock is overpowered, signed Scissors".  But here the combinations of rock-paper-scissors is not a factor of three options but in masters alone of something like 35+ and then with crew and other game variations for all intents and purposes infinite.

Different tournaments have slight local rules variations, different players and such.  A consistently strong, simple master will win a lot but a well played unusual master will dominate many people more so because most folks rarely see it and understand the tricks.  Sometimes a meta will have a strong core which plays certain masters and those masters become very dominant but head somewhere else and the strong players have a different spin, so different masters rule.

There are a bunch of podcasts and such which provide advice,

I'd go find the Pullmyfinger webpage and the Schemes & Stones podcast and blog page for a start.  Both provide solid advice.  As for the strong masters looking worldwide is pointless, yeah master "x" is strong in Texas and master "y" strong in Birmingham, while in the Loire Valley region master "t" is the top tier, really doesn't help you much.  What you need to know is in your area who plays what and well, even then it will change very fluidly.

[Franchute]

@TeddyBear the following post might be useful:

 

[TeddyBear]

thanks franchute!

i already have seen that old thread, 

it would be interesting, update it with new crews!

[redmask]

On 9/26/2016 at 8:56 AM, dancater said:

Again this is a tricky question as different metas (areas/regions/groups) have very different outlooks.

For example I know a group where Gremlins are renowned as being a total nightmare to play, in particular Brewmaster and Ulix.  Ironically travel a few hundred kilometers south of there and Gremlins are regarded as useless.  I know a group where a Tara crew combo a player runs is considered unbeatable, I've heard other folks say she is not worth much.  Pandora I've been told by some is a horrible struggle to win against, I have crushed her in the games I've played.  Many, many players say Lucius in Guild is useless, he is one of my favorite non-Arcanist masters and I rate him.

I wish we could help Teddy and I commiserate with English as a second language and the problems that causes, this is not that problem.  The key element here is you are asking a question of such complexity and (as Golden noted) subjectivity that it is impossible to answer. 

There is an old adage from the silly game Rock-Paper-Scissors that goes "Paper is balanced but Rock is overpowered, signed Scissors".  But here the combinations of rock-paper-scissors is not a factor of three options but in masters alone of something like 35+ and then with crew and other game variations for all intents and purposes infinite.

Different tournaments have slight local rules variations, different players and such.  A consistently strong, simple master will win a lot but a well played unusual master will dominate many people more so because most folks rarely see it and understand the tricks.  Sometimes a meta will have a strong core which plays certain masters and those masters become very dominant but head somewhere else and the strong players have a different spin, so different masters rule.

There are a bunch of podcasts and such which provide advice,

I'd go find the Pullmyfinger webpage and the Schemes & Stones podcast and blog page for a start.  Both provide solid advice.  As for the strong masters looking worldwide is pointless, yeah master "x" is strong in Texas and master "y" strong in Birmingham, while in the Loire Valley region master "t" is the top tier, really doesn't help you much.  What you need to know is in your area who plays what and well, even then it will change very fluidly.

This just means there's good balance. I would say that if Gremlins are that over-powered, I'd look at the terrain setup in each game, though. Pockets of power exist everywhere, but definitely agree that metas vary wildly.

[Adran]

On 27/09/2016 at 3:53 PM, TeddyBear said:

thanks franchute!

i already have seen that old thread, 

it would be interesting, update it with new crews!

It would be, but very few people have seen the new crews play yet, as for a lot of people they are only just getting their hands on Ripples of Fate. And until the crew box is on general release, there will be large groups of players who haven't seen the new masters at all. 

That said, my initial reactions are lower than several people. (Note: I had a 7 tier list on page 2 of that thread so I'm sticking with 7 tiers)

I see Nellie as someone who plays very differently for guild, making her biggest effect being a change in opponents counter play. She isn't about the killing at range that probably typifies Guild as a whole. At a rough guess I'd place her as tier 3 or 4, heading more towards 3 if your opponent is they person who adaps their list based on enemy faction. 

Reva. There are lots of debates on the resser board as to her power level. I don't think she is the strongest Resser Master out there, but she is probably tier 2. I think she may drop down to tier 3 as people learn what she does and how to face her. (or I'm wrong and she is the new tier 1 master and people build anti corpse marker lists to face her). 

Sandeep. I'm thinking tier 3. I like what he does, and think he throws up an interesting set of challenges. Its worth noting that of a year playing the GT Champions Kirai list, I#'ve manged 1 win and 1 draw in about 15 games. The win was Sandeep, and the draw was Lucius. Some of the Sandeep was the newness of the master and some was the natural counter he felt that a large number of Ca attacks (or at least the potential of Sandeeps attack coming from anywhere) ofefred. 

Titania I'm thinking a 4, but I've just got my gut on this. 

Parker. I'm thinking he is probably 3. I look at him and see lots of interesting combos and need to put him on the table to see how they work in practice. If they work as I want them to he might make 2, if they don't, or are too obvious then he might drop to 4 or 5. 

Asami. I just don't like her, but she is probably a 2/3 tier master. She might drop a little lower because I think, like Hoffman, she is a very bubble master, giving her limited range of affecting the field. But I don't know until I see her. 

Zipp. He is probably the one that will depend the most on your playstyle. I don't really care that he is insignifigant, and the way I play most of my crews means that I never have masters wasting AP to interact. Others at my Club think that it makes him much weaker. So I think I put him at 3 or 4, but if you don't play the way for him, I could see 5  or maybe 6. 

 

Other than that  I think Zoraida has a big bosst, and Lucius a small boost. I don't think the errata and new models have brought anyone down a tier, and not sure that anyone else has received something good enough to move them up (without haveing palyed with them anyway). 

 

 

[TeddyBear]

20 hours ago, Adran said:

It would be, but very few people have seen the new crews play yet, as for a lot of people they are only just getting their hands on Ripples of Fate. And until the crew box is on general release, there will be large groups of players who haven't seen the new masters at all. 

That said, my initial reactions are lower than several people. (Note: I had a 7 tier list on page 2 of that thread so I'm sticking with 7 tiers)

I see Nellie as someone who plays very differently for guild, making her biggest effect being a change in opponents counter play. She isn't about the killing at range that probably typifies Guild as a whole. At a rough guess I'd place her as tier 3 or 4, heading more towards 3 if your opponent is they person who adaps their list based on enemy faction. 

Reva. There are lots of debates on the resser board as to her power level. I don't think she is the strongest Resser Master out there, but she is probably tier 2. I think she may drop down to tier 3 as people learn what she does and how to face her. (or I'm wrong and she is the new tier 1 master and people build anti corpse marker lists to face her). 

Sandeep. I'm thinking tier 3. I like what he does, and think he throws up an interesting set of challenges. Its worth noting that of a year playing the GT Champions Kirai list, I#'ve manged 1 win and 1 draw in about 15 games. The win was Sandeep, and the draw was Lucius. Some of the Sandeep was the newness of the master and some was the natural counter he felt that a large number of Ca attacks (or at least the potential of Sandeeps attack coming from anywhere) ofefred. 

Titania I'm thinking a 4, but I've just got my gut on this. 

Parker. I'm thinking he is probably 3. I look at him and see lots of interesting combos and need to put him on the table to see how they work in practice. If they work as I want them to he might make 2, if they don't, or are too obvious then he might drop to 4 or 5. 

Asami. I just don't like her, but she is probably a 2/3 tier master. She might drop a little lower because I think, like Hoffman, she is a very bubble master, giving her limited range of affecting the field. But I don't know until I see her. 

Zipp. He is probably the one that will depend the most on your playstyle. I don't really care that he is insignifigant, and the way I play most of my crews means that I never have masters wasting AP to interact. Others at my Club think that it makes him much weaker. So I think I put him at 3 or 4, but if you don't play the way for him, I could see 5  or maybe 6. 

 

Other than that  I think Zoraida has a big bosst, and Lucius a small boost. I don't think the errata and new models have brought anyone down a tier, and not sure that anyone else has received something good enough to move them up (without haveing palyed with them anyway). 

 

 

Many thanks Adran for your opinion!

For the moment, i'm one of the people who have only watched the new book..but i think i best if i get an idea on what i choose from new models (also for this i've asked this question)

Just one ast question (going off-topic)

Do you think that weakness of Reva can be her "living" charateristic? (horror duel ect. ect.)?

 

 

[Adran]

I don't think that "living" is really going to be her weakness. I can't think of much outside horror that really affects it, and Horror isn't enough for 2 reasons.

Firstly, she knows what she is going to want to target each turn. Whilst Terror can be a hand drain, you do typically know if you are going to face the duel that turn, so can probably plan your hand usage to make sure that she doesn't fail a Horror duel.

Secondly, If you are facing Ressers and end up building a crew full of Terryifying Living models, then you are probably doing something wrong. 

 

I will repeat that the Tier list is still very tight, and whilst I have placed Lucious and Ironsides very low, I have seen people play them very well. (and win games against other good players) The player skill level is a much bigger divide than the tier, so a player who is skilled with Lucius  can easily beat a player that has just picked up a Levi Net list. You shouldn't look at these lists and feel that because you picked a Master that I think is "low tier" that you are doomed to lose everything. (So basically buy what you want to buy. Most of the stuff from Ripples is generally playable, and probably isn't released until the new year by which time people might have a better idea with it. And Other people aren't you. I have always thought the metal gamin was not great, I don't like the doppleganmger, and think that a lot of the time she is a waste of points, and actually makes people play poorly with out them realising that is what it is doing. How you play is different to how I play, so you will rate things differently to me, and to everyone else. )

 

I find that the consistent thing about the tournament podiums is the names of the players much much more than the Faction. So here in the UK it might look like Neverborn are the greatest, but thats  because a lot of the top players mainly play neverborn. When they play otehr factions then typically still appear at the top of the lists, they just don't play those factions as often. 

[Four_N_Six]

The lovely thing about Malifaux for me is that as long as you know what you're doing in regards to building a useful crew, you can't really go wrong with your master choice.  There will be some situations where you're just screwed by bad luck (Paralyze Pandora getting matched against Rasputina would be the equivalent of a black joker), but for the most part it's all about your playstyle.

Perfect example, people love Ulix.  Like, a lot.  I like the idea of Ulix, but it just doesn't click for me for some reason.  I can't make him work the way other people can, so he ends up on the lower end of my gremlin masters.  On the other side of that, I love Mah Tucket and have had very high levels of success with her, while the general consensus about her seems to be that her crew is essentially a $40-$50 Trixiebelle box.

[Kaptain_Konrad]

Teir 1: great player 

Teir 2: above average player 

Teir 3: average player

Teir 4: new player 

Teir 5: Lucius, Zorida.

 

All joking aside, I dont think there is really a teir list that can be made. Maybe more of a  balanced/little too good/little to weak masters. Some masters shine in one pool and other will be bleh, then reverse them for a different pool. Though there probably is a few who might be considered overpowered or underpowered. I feel more like it's certain models that push things too far. this of coarse being my opinion.

[santaclaws01]

17 hours ago, Kaptain_Konrad said:

Teir 1: great player 

Teir 2: above average player 

Teir 3: average player

Teir 4: new player 

Teir 5: Lucius, Zorida.

 

All joking aside, I dont think there is really a teir list that can be made. Maybe more of a  balanced/little too good/little to weak masters. Some masters shine in one pool and other will be bleh, then reverse them for a different pool. Though there probably is a few who might be considered overpowered or underpowered. I feel more like it's certain models that push things too far. this of coarse being my opinion.

Generally tier lists are how well that master will perform regardless of the scenario. Like Brewmaster being amazing in specific scenarios but still being ranked lower because he's not that great in others, whereas someone like Lilith doesn't have any scenario she excels in but she also doesn't have any bad ones and would probably only be average at worst in any particular scenario, and thus is higher.

[Hidelfon]

On 03/10/2016 at 11:36 AM, Adran said:

It would be, but very few people have seen the new crews play yet, as for a lot of people they are only just getting their hands on Ripples of Fate. And until the crew box is on general release, there will be large groups of players who haven't seen the new masters at all. 

That said, my initial reactions are lower than several people. (Note: I had a 7 tier list on page 2 of that thread so I'm sticking with 7 tiers)

I see Nellie as someone who plays very differently for guild, making her biggest effect being a change in opponents counter play. She isn't about the killing at range that probably typifies Guild as a whole. At a rough guess I'd place her as tier 3 or 4, heading more towards 3 if your opponent is they person who adaps their list based on enemy faction. 

Reva. There are lots of debates on the resser board as to her power level. I don't think she is the strongest Resser Master out there, but she is probably tier 2. I think she may drop down to tier 3 as people learn what she does and how to face her. (or I'm wrong and she is the new tier 1 master and people build anti corpse marker lists to face her). 

Sandeep. I'm thinking tier 3. I like what he does, and think he throws up an interesting set of challenges. Its worth noting that of a year playing the GT Champions Kirai list, I#'ve manged 1 win and 1 draw in about 15 games. The win was Sandeep, and the draw was Lucius. Some of the Sandeep was the newness of the master and some was the natural counter he felt that a large number of Ca attacks (or at least the potential of Sandeeps attack coming from anywhere) ofefred. 

Titania I'm thinking a 4, but I've just got my gut on this. 

Parker. I'm thinking he is probably 3. I look at him and see lots of interesting combos and need to put him on the table to see how they work in practice. If they work as I want them to he might make 2, if they don't, or are too obvious then he might drop to 4 or 5. 

Asami. I just don't like her, but she is probably a 2/3 tier master. She might drop a little lower because I think, like Hoffman, she is a very bubble master, giving her limited range of affecting the field. But I don't know until I see her. 

Zipp. He is probably the one that will depend the most on your playstyle. I don't really care that he is insignifigant, and the way I play most of my crews means that I never have masters wasting AP to interact. Others at my Club think that it makes him much weaker. So I think I put him at 3 or 4, but if you don't play the way for him, I could see 5  or maybe 6. 

 

Other than that  I think Zoraida has a big bosst, and Lucius a small boost. I don't think the errata and new models have brought anyone down a tier, and not sure that anyone else has received something good enough to move them up (without haveing palyed with them anyway). 

 

 

Nellie Tier 3 or 4?!!

You must  have seen very bad players using her ?

[Adran]

10 hours ago, Hidelfon said:

Nellie Tier 3 or 4?!!

You must  have seen very bad players using her ?

I've not seen anyone using her yet.

But just for context, here are the rest of my tier 3 (out of 7) picks

3rd  Sonnia, Molly, Ramos, Colette, Jack, Viks, Ulix, Pandora, Lynch.

I'm happy with the company she is keeping at the moment. 

 

As I said, My list is in the other thread, but for completeness sake this is it

Top - Kirai, levi

2nd Marcus, Lileth, Dreamer, McCabe

3rd Sonnia, Molly, Ramos, Colette, Jack, Viks, Ulix, Pandora, Lynch

4th McMorning (guild) Perdita Rasputina,  Kaeris, Seamus, Yan Lo, Collodi, Sommer, Wong, Ophelia

5th Justice, Nicodem, McMorning (resser),  Zoraida, Von shill, Misaki

6th, Hoffman, Tara, mei Feng, brewmaster, Hamlin, 

7th Ironside, Lucius. 

[Hidelfon]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I've not seen anyone using her yet.

But just for context, here are the rest of my tier 3 (out of 7) picks

3rd  Sonnia, Molly, Ramos, Colette, Jack, Viks, Ulix, Pandora, Lynch.

I'm happy with the company she is keeping at the moment. 

 

That makes more sense! 

I am curious to know who are in the rest of your  tiers

[Math Mathonwy]

On ‎12‎.‎11‎.‎2016 at 6:15 PM, santaclaws01 said:

Generally tier lists are how well that master will perform regardless of the scenario. Like Brewmaster being amazing in specific scenarios but still being ranked lower because he's not that great in others, whereas someone like Lilith doesn't have any scenario she excels in but she also doesn't have any bad ones and would probably only be average at worst in any particular scenario, and thus is higher.

I think that since you decide Master after seeing the scenario, it makes a lot more sense to base tiering on favourable circumstances. So if a Master really, really excels in something, he is a good choice and high tier.

Also, I don't think that Brewmaster is amazing in any situation  

[Freman]

Adran, I think you might want to revise Hamelin's level a bit, or play more of him. Any Master with Obey is useful. Any Master with Obey who can summon is better. Any Master with Obey who can summon, and dump a poison type condition on enemy units that can be subjected to an expunge type effect without losing the condition is better still.

[Ludvig]

On 2016-11-15 at 0:09 PM, Math Mathonwy said:

I think that since you decide Master after seeing the scenario, it makes a lot more sense to base tiering on favourable circumstances. So if a Master really, really excels in something, he is a good choice and high tier.

Also, I don't think that Brewmaster is amazing in any situation  

Basing on favourable circumstances seems backwards to me. The main use I see for a tier list would be a player wanting to only ever play a single master but wanting to play competatively with that single master. If people are just pokémoning through an entire faction they can find out what playstyle suits them by trying different ones in different games. 

I'm thinking that a strong master should be able to handle all of the current 8 common (and  to a lesser degree the 2 uncommon) strategies as well as being good at the always available and suited schemes since those are more likely to be in the game. Being really good at a scheme that comes up once in ten games doesn't make a master as good as being able to handle all the suited ones in my eyes.

[4thstringer]

I'm not all that interested in the top tiers, but whether the bottom tiers will change due to the errata and/or wave 4.  Masters that I viewed as bottom masters, (lucius, Ironsides, Yan Lo(though he may have already been fixed by emissary), Zoraida, Hamelin) seem to have gotten a significant bump from the errata or from a wave 4 model. (Except maybe Hamelin.  I wonder if I am underestimating him). 

[Ludvig]

Is Hamelin that weak? He ahould be able to do the rat nonsense and hire stuff like A&D along with some other amazingly bothersome model. In a pool with only marker and consition schemes (had a few of those come up) his rat kings can munch up all your markers while the beaters go to town and kill stuff.

[4thstringer]

Just now, Ludvig said:

Is Hamelin that weak? He ahould be able to do the rat nonsense and hire stuff like A&D along with some other amazingly bothersome model. In a pool with only marker and consition schemes (had a few of those come up) his rat kings can munch up all your markers while the beaters go to town and kill stuff.

I haven't played against him that much, but I never was really impressed by him.  It is extremely possible that I am wrong though.

[tomjoad]

18 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Is Hamelin that weak? He ahould be able to do the rat nonsense and hire stuff like A&D along with some other amazingly bothersome model. In a pool with only marker and consition schemes (had a few of those come up) his rat kings can munch up all your markers while the beaters go to town and kill stuff.

I think the reason the Rat Engine only became an issue when it was combined with Leveticus or the Viktorias is that Hamelin himself doesn't do a lot. He's not bad, mind, but with Levy/Viks, you get a huge threat for 0ss, plus Killjoy and whatever other beaters you actually choose to hire. With Hamelin, the only huge threats you are fielding are the ones you pay stones for. Not bad, but not the tier 1 insanity that the old Rat crews could field.