Reva wrecking face?

[daniello_s]

Agreed that 18'' is far to much. 10 I can understand since her engagement range is 3''.

[admiralvorkraft]

The only problem I have with Reva is that Shards from the Emissary is an insane (0) and My Little Helper makes it grossly OP. Nothing like turn one boxing in most crews, and being in an untouchable position. Top of two you're a little vulnerable but the Zombies will block most charge options.

Playing against Reva, as far as I can tell, means accepting that she'll get attacks when and where she wants them and either sending someone to deal with her, or just doing what you can on schemes and strat. 

The problem is when you're stuck in your deployment zone dealing with zombies.

[Paddywhack]

59 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

The only problem I have with Reva is that Shards from the Emissary is an insane (0) and My Little Helper makes it grossly OP. Nothing like turn one boxing in most crews, and being in an untouchable position. Top of two you're a little vulnerable but the Zombies will block most charge options.

Playing against Reva, as far as I can tell, means accepting that she'll get attacks when and where she wants them and either sending someone to deal with her, or just doing what you can on schemes and strat. 

The problem is when you're stuck in your deployment zone dealing with zombies.

Hmm. The Shards is nasty, but others (Rasputina and Sonnia) can achieve the same thing every single turn, rather than just once a game (my last two games against Raspy it was impossible for me to get anywhere near her).

MLH is amazing, but I don't find it being the biggest problem. The free Mindless Zombie with the Effigy I think is a bigger problem and why so many think the emissary is an Auto-include. I'm not a fan of any of the emissaries though (or 10+SS models in general). I find they are just too hard to balance. 

[Greebo]

I get that Reva can exploit the shards most by attacking models behind them through gaps without granting them cover but the fact that Shards can box in a crew is not exclusive to Reva. The same with MLH, it synergises well with her but it is great with everyone. Am I missing something? 

[admiralvorkraft]

It's the combination of effortless board control and automatically delivering corpses where they are needed that puts Reva over the top in my opinion. 

Reva is theoretically the most vulnerable in the opening turns as she sets up her markers. This eliminates that window against the vast majority of crews.

For the record, double pillars is pretty op with Raspi and Sonnia two, but at least it costs ap and (in Sonnia's case) a middling card.

[valhallan42nd]

I'll take the complaints about Reva, and file them in the "Nekima/Collodi/Neverborn In General" Drawer. It's about time we got a scary, scary master in terms of damage. All you have to do is get to her, and she's toast, the same as Asami. It's our job to make that hard as Colossus wearing a diamond overcoat. 

[Paddywhack]

34 minutes ago, valhallan42nd said:

I'll take the complaints about Reva, and file them in the "Nekima/Collodi/Neverborn In General" Drawer. It's about time we got a scary, scary master in terms of damage. All you have to do is get to her, and she's toast, the same as Asami. It's our job to make that hard as Colossus wearing a diamond overcoat. 

So you say, but I've yet to even come close to losing her (actually no where near it - the one time I took a few wounds they were all healed next activation) and most others I've asked have had no problem keeping her alive. Getting to her is difficult to say the least and then she can just jump away easily.  Asami is also harder to take out than she looks.

I agree that there are a lot of other hard core masters and models, but Reva is in a class all her own at the moment. 

[TheJoyInGaming]

9 hours ago, aquenaton said:

that is only if you don´t want to change what it does...

I still don´t get how do all people manage to have so many corpses on the right places. With Nico you are forced to take Mortimer and some upgrades just to live, but with reva everybody has spare corpses? I know the candles can move, but you will have up to 6 in the course of the game! if your opponent spreads his crew, how do you manage it? have you faced enemies that use your corpses?

Candles can use a 1 action to move corpses. Also Mwahahaha can create mindless zombies. If you choose to take Beyond Death you make Reva more flexible because she doesn't need as many corpses.

[osoi]

IN playing against her I do not see her as OP, scary yes but not OP. You need to put pressure on her. I know this is anecdotal but I played Ironsides against her in Extraction, she had the emissary with MLH as well. Reva put a candle up near the informant marker. I double walked Ironsides up towards the center then pulled both Howard and Joss up with You Looking at me (with trigger so I could do it a second time). Shards went up but cut the candle off from LoS and I had enough of a gap to get Howard into the emissary on my next activation. Even though I did not kill the emissary that turn the pressure I was able to put on meant my opponent was scrambling on the counter as Ironsides ended up surrounded by Zombies, candles and other models. Jumping through with Rush 'Em I managed to get a couple of good punches on Reva herself and ended up killing her turn 4.

 

No doubt certain crews will have a harder time dealing with her than others but that is true of every matchup in Malifaux

[Omenbringer]

9 hours ago, aquenaton said:

that is only if you don´t want to change what it does...

I still don´t get how do all people manage to have so many corpses on the right places. With Nico you are forced to take Mortimer and some upgrades just to live, but with reva everybody has spare corpses? I know the candles can move, but you will have up to 6 in the course of the game! if your opponent spreads his crew, how do you manage it? have you faced enemies that use your corpses?

Yes Reva can make 6 Corpse Candels (7 if she attaches the upgrade allowing for another free one in turn ones initiative phase). She also typically hires the Carrion Emissary who adds another per turn and don't forget the Shield Bearers also drop one when they die the first time. Yes she can also move them where she needs them or just summon a Corpse Candle where she needs it (though this is at a closer range it still extends her touch out to over 12"). When facing enemies that also use Corpse Counters Maniacal Laugh helps a lot, Mindless Zombies (and Corpse Candles) are only Corpse Counters to Friendly models, they have to be killed before your opponent can use them.

6 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

Hmm. The Shards is nasty, but others (Rasputina and Sonnia) can achieve the same thing every single turn, rather than just once a game (my last two games against Raspy it was impossible for me to get anywhere near her).

MLH is amazing, but I don't find it being the biggest problem. The free Mindless Zombie with the Effigy I think is a bigger problem and why so many think the emissary is an Auto-include. I'm not a fan of any of the emissaries though (or 10+SS models in general). I find they are just too hard to balance. 

Shards does a lot more for Reva than the Ice Pillars or Flame Wall does for their crews, precisely because they add the Mindless Zombie. That is another activation and a mobile attack node for Reva in addition to also providing an obstacle for your opponent to negotiate.

2 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

It's the combination of effortless board control and automatically delivering corpses where they are needed that puts Reva over the top in my opinion. 

Reva is theoretically the most vulnerable in the opening turns as she sets up her markers. This eliminates that window against the vast majority of crews.

For the record, double pillars is pretty op with Raspi and Sonnia two, but at least it costs ap and (in Sonnia's case) a middling card.

The double Pillars also limits the friendly crew in a lot of circumstances.

1 hour ago, valhallan42nd said:

I'll take the complaints about Reva, and file them in the "Nekima/Collodi/Neverborn In General" Drawer. It's about time we got a scary, scary master in terms of damage. All you have to do is get to her, and she's toast, the same as Asami. It's our job to make that hard as Colossus wearing a diamond overcoat. 

Getting to her with enough to really cripple her is the crux of the issue. She has a very long threat range and there are very few models that can reach her and still have enough AP to do anything significant.

1 minute ago, osoi said:

IN playing against her I do not see her as OP, scary yes but not OP. You need to put pressure on her. I know this is anecdotal but I played Ironsides against her in Extraction, she had the emissary with MLH as well. Reva put a candle up near the informant marker. I double walked Ironsides up towards the center then pulled both Howard and Joss up with You Looking at me (with trigger so I could do it a second time). Shards went up but cut the candle off from LoS and I had enough of a gap to get Howard into the emissary on my next activation. Even though I did not kill the emissary that turn the pressure I was able to put on meant my opponent was scrambling on the counter as Ironsides ended up surrounded by Zombies, candles and other models. Jumping through with Rush 'Em I managed to get a couple of good punches on Reva herself and ended up killing her turn 4.

 

No doubt certain crews will have a harder time dealing with her than others but that is true of every matchup in Malifaux

So she is not OP because your opponent made some poor placements with their Corpse Candle and Shards of Nythera? Also for a "Fragile" model I am surprised it took so long to kill Reva with Ironsides. Now if you could do it consistently then I might give it some credence.

[TheTrans]

Boys, boys...stop getting all snippity with each other. I feel all these colloquial results are a bit skewed at the minute. Give it 6 months (or hell the next month or two for RoF to come out) and people will know what she does and how to stop it/mitigate it.

Papa box has been around forever, still hasn't been Cuddled, so I wouldn't hold my breath. Although to me the Levi cuddle was probably a bit over the top (he was Cuddled due to rat-engine, they stopped him getting the rat-engine and Cuddled him any way...).

Also doesn't raspy have a crazy long range, decent damage track, ability to trigger the attack multiple times, shoot from safety and have a good cast?

Let the meta settle, let people get used to her shenanigans, then look into it again. 

[Bengt]

3 hours ago, TheTrans said:

Also doesn't raspy have a crazy long range, decent damage track, ability to trigger the attack multiple times, shoot from safety and have a good cast?

Well Raspy has higher damage potential (especially with Bite and Radiance) but that  on December's Curse can really cut down on that potential as cover (both as in actual terrain and abilities that create cover) is much more common than abilities that gimp Ca actions in general.

Also you have to make choices and/or put some effort in keeping Raspy safe, her own push is limited so can't be taken with Shattered Heart, so you'd need another model to push her around if you maximised her damage. Her Df trigger give some protection, but it's only against Ml attacks and she'll still be engaged and fairly helpless after it goes off. Df 4 sucks too...

It's almost like they put some thought into the glass bit of glass cannon when designing Raspy.

---

I don't have any opinion myself about the whether Reva is OP but I sincerely doubt she'll get an errata until July at the earliest if she gets changed at all. Sure, if she wins "all" the tournaments in the fall/winter something might be scrambled out for the January errata.

[benjoewoo]

Ressers get a master that is really off the beaten path and can help put them on the higher end of the faction tier, and the community seems conflicted about whether it's a good thing. Reva presents an odd duck to plan for in one of the "melee centric" factions, but that's the risk you run playing normal or competitive games vs. casual, declare everything before the game starts play. Lilith sees 10 or so cards per turn and is arguably still one of the strongest masters years alter, but she doesn't get proactive cuddling. Reva makes a great debut and we need to put her down after about a month?

I think people are tunneling on what is likely one of the simpler new masters and the difficulty in learning to counter that master quickly. Parker Barrows is fairly complicated, given his instinctual with a cost and exchanging upgrades mechanics. Nellie doesn't really fight from what I know of her and instead manipulates the field. Asami is a summoner. Sandeep is a summoner/AP manipulator. Most of the new masters are not really straight fighters like Reva. Titania seems to be the next straight "fighter" master, but her fighting is more traditional melee with aura tricks. The underlying theme is that the other new masters themselves have a steeper learning curve, so learning to counter them occurs at a closer pace with learning to use them than in Reva's case, where playing her at an average or above average level is attainable more quickly than learning to counter her.

No one really complained about the Emissary's 0 or power level prior to Reva--people actually asked how to get use out of him. People also tend to focus on Vincent's 0, despite his relatively low survivability (compared to other Resser henchmen) and lack of melee engagement. I echo the voices it's premature to say Reva needs cuddling, especially considering she brings a power balance to Ressers as a faction and gives them a new, easy to pick up and play master that won't cost a lot to play--i.e. is playable out of the box, unlike many of our current masters.

As a side note--every book in theory further balances the game by bringing more powerful models to the factions that need more of a boost to catch up to the others--obviously new models keep players interested and add new flavor, but new models and upgrades balance previously underutilized or under powered models, mechanics, etc. If Reva was made "this good" on such a straightforward level with a model like Vincent and an upgrade like my little helper, what does that say about the need for balancing the Resser power level as a faction? 

[TheTrans]

4 hours ago, benjoewoo said:

Ressers get a master that is really off the beaten path and can help put them on the higher end of the faction tier, and the community seems conflicted about whether it's a good thing. Reva presents an odd duck to plan for in one of the "melee centric" factions, but that's the risk you run playing normal or competitive games vs. casual, declare everything before the game starts play. Lilith sees 10 or so cards per turn and is arguably still one of the strongest masters years alter, but she doesn't get proactive cuddling. Reva makes a great debut and we need to put her down after about a month?

I think people are tunneling on what is likely one of the simpler new masters and the difficulty in learning to counter that master quickly. Parker Barrows is fairly complicated, given his instinctual with a cost and exchanging upgrades mechanics. Nellie doesn't really fight from what I know of her and instead manipulates the field. Asami is a summoner. Sandeep is a summoner/AP manipulator. Most of the new masters are not really straight fighters like Reva. Titania seems to be the next straight "fighter" master, but her fighting is more traditional melee with aura tricks. The underlying theme is that the other new masters themselves have a steeper learning curve, so learning to counter them occurs at a closer pace with learning to use them than in Reva's case, where playing her at an average or above average level is attainable more quickly than learning to counter her.

No one really complained about the Emissary's 0 or power level prior to Reva--people actually asked how to get use out of him. People also tend to focus on Vincent's 0, despite his relatively low survivability (compared to other Resser henchmen) and lack of melee engagement. I echo the voices it's premature to say Reva needs cuddling, especially considering she brings a power balance to Ressers as a faction and gives them a new, easy to pick up and play master that won't cost a lot to play--i.e. is playable out of the box, unlike many of our current masters.

As a side note--every book in theory further balances the game by bringing more powerful models to the factions that need more of a boost to catch up to the others--obviously new models keep players interested and add new flavor, but new models and upgrades balance previously underutilized or under powered models, mechanics, etc. If Reva was made "this good" on such a straightforward level with a model like Vincent and an upgrade like my little helper, what does that say about the need for balancing the Resser power level as a faction? 

Very well put mate.

I concur, her 'learn how to use' phase is quite short, ergo, people will be reeling a little, but due to her simpleness (and I say that as a massive Reva lover, my only Resser master), people should figure out how to counter her soonish. Thinking about Lady J and the non-corpse placement Aura, may see Lady J out and about a bit more which would be great.

I also concur that Reva's box is much more stand alone than most of the others, and especially some (Nico and Kirai), which really just give you a master and henchman... 

Given my 'go to' Reva list is her box models + the Emissary, Yin and either a crooligan, Necropunk or Chiaki, it is a much more solid purchase!

All we can do is hope that Wyrd doesn't err down the path of listening to 'internet wisdom' on the forums....

[TheJoyInGaming]

Reva's box is quite powerful i must concur. All i have done is add Toshiro and Chiaki and it can be soulcrushing. 

[TheTrans]

Killing her suits from corpse marker attacks would gut most of her shenanigans so I would say that'd be a bit too strong.

 

It is 1 turn, with 2 (0)s, they can help in the right turn, but you need to be careful.

 

Honestly, let the Meta settle and revisit the topic in a few months.

[Omenbringer]

3 hours ago, TheTrans said:

All we can do is hope that Wyrd doesn't err down the path of listening to 'internet wisdom' on the forums....

I would really hope Wyrd does listen to the internet wisdom as it has discovered many of the broken interactions for Malifaux (both editions) and also offered many of the final "official" fixes (often within a few weeks of release/ observation).

While I will conceded that often cries of "broken" or "OP" are thrown around with way to little merit (often due to omissions or misunderstandings of the rules) not all of them are unwarranted. Many of the posters have been playing Malifaux for years (and also play tested for the game at various points). Just because a model hasn't been out long or is straightforward doesn't meant that players can't see that it is above the power curve substantially.

Reva does not equal Rasputina. Rasputina has many disadvantages while using her Ice Mirrors that Reva doesn't suffer from. Reva doesn't care about cover, Rasputina does. Reva can bypass Defensive Stance by targeting WP instead, Rasputina can not. Reva can create her own nodes for no AP expenditure, Rasputina can not. Reva's nodes are tied to an 18" bubble (nearly the entire board if she is near the middle), Rasputina's are tied to a 10" bubble. Reva is Ht 3 so can see more than Rasputina who is Ht 2. Reva can use her nodes as long as she can see them, Rasputina can only use them if she can see them and they are not engaged. Reva attacks through her nodes at full value all the time and can always use her triggers through them, Rasputina must attach an expensive upgrade to be able to do that and the triggers are at a - value. Reva has a much higher minimum damage; meaning she can rely on simply hitting a target rather than Rasputina who wants to hit well and trigger to equal Reva's damage output. Also despite what common wisdom on the forums is stating, Reva is not a fragile little waif that falls easily, she has good resist values and also an extremely long threat range that keeps her out of the direct fight while still allowing her to influence it. Also consider that getting to Rasputina shuts down the majority of her offensive bite (leaving only a 0 action for attacking), getting to Reva just means she doesn't have to rely on her nodes to deliver her aggression. Lastly, while there are models that can remove Corpse Markers, they are usually in a small radius, require AP expenditure, and do nothing to stop Reva's Corpse Candle or Mindless Zombie mobile nodes (as they are only Considered Corpse Markers for Friendly models).

8 hours ago, benjoewoo said:

No one really complained about the Emissary's 0 or power level prior to Reva--people actually asked how to get use out of him. People also tend to focus on Vincent's 0, despite his relatively low survivability (compared to other Resser henchmen) and lack of melee engagement. I echo the voices it's premature to say Reva needs cuddling, especially considering she brings a power balance to Ressers as a faction and gives them a new, easy to pick up and play master that won't cost a lot to play--i.e. is playable out of the box, unlike many of our current masters.

As a side note--every book in theory further balances the game by bringing more powerful models to the factions that need more of a boost to catch up to the others--obviously new models keep players interested and add new flavor, but new models and upgrades balance previously underutilized or under powered models, mechanics, etc. If Reva was made "this good" on such a straightforward level with a model like Vincent and an upgrade like my little helper, what does that say about the need for balancing the Resser power level as a faction? 

Emissaries, particularly the Arcane and the Carrion have been complained about long before Reva was spoiled, especially Shards of Nythera. Both of those Emissaries pack a lot of potency for their cost.

We will just have to disagree on the last paragraph as Ressers without Reva are hardly a gimped or noncompetitive faction. I would also caution against assuming that Wyrd intended Reva to be this potent, many overly potent interactions can and have slipped through play testing over the years (when you have this many models it is inevitable, variations in play tester skill also plays a large role). It is our job as a community to mention them, it is Wyrd's job to address them. While many are calling for a "wait and see" approach, historically speaking this has done nothing other than sour new potential players to the game (because it really showcases the imbalances between crews), causes communities to ban the models (already happening), and finally just prolongs the required fixes (many of which are provided by the community within weeks of release). It is worth mentioning that even Reva players are talking about her potency and the need to dial it down, so it isn't simply a sour grapes discussion.

Is she the worst, that is debatable (I personally place Sandeep above Reva). Is she the only one that is above the power curve, definitely not. This is why many in the community have called for a dramatic slowing of the new model releases. Each successive book makes things more exponentially more difficult to catch and balance (even a relative factional balance) nearly impossible.

As always these are my thoughts and no more or less valued than anyone elses. The discussion is the important piece for Wyrd.

[benjoewoo]

A few players, some of whom have played for years, some of whom have not, are voicing concerns Reva needs to be toned down. Maybe, but give it some time to see what exactly is causing the issue--"Reva's range is too good because of X, Y, and Z reasons" is too broad. I agree with Omenbringer we will have to disagree on some things we're saying, because I don't experience what he/she does and I don't think he/she experiences what I do in the game, so we have different perspectives.

I do agree that Ressers aren't a "gimped" faction or non-competitive, but that doesn't mean they don't need help power level wise--perfect balance is a fanciful wish, but that doesn't mean we accept faction tiers for min/max-ing. Making changes based on a small percentage representation of the actual player base would be a mistake without further research and observation, or else it's pandering to the base. Power ramps and rubber band effects are a constant in gaming, and while Wyrd should keep the effects reasonable, it doesn't mean changes are needed the instant it's noticed. Sometimes the meta solves itself, others there needs to be direct intervention. 

One of the first things newer players encounter in Malifaux is the differing potency of range and melee based on terrain. You could always directly mitigate something on Reva, which requires official errata or FAQ, or you can prevent "too easy" access to her mechanic via terrain setup--Ht 3 terrain. A simple example, maybe, but terrain is always the first thing that comes to mind in playing Malifaux, and it affects every master.

People have said Rasputina is not a good comparison, but I think her, along with other far reaching casters such as Sonnia, are the comparisons that need to be drawn. Master potency is only relevant in context, so opinions as they come should have some context.

In that same vein, identifying flaws and fixes happens quickly, but in the Malifaux online community it happens in an unfiltered setting and often with extreme decisions and consequences alongside more moderate ones. Banhammers and player blacklisting for Mei Feng's Conflux of Combat alongside the call for removing the scrap marker would be an example. The subsequent errata "balanced" the upgrade, but leaves a bad taste for people who bought the emissary for that upgrade's use as originally printed and shipped---but, someone had to lose and Wyrd took more than a month to decide their best compromise. Someone loses with an errata, so it shouldn't be used lightly for the negative effects it can have--e.g. players buying Jakob Lynch on shelves can still get the pre-errata upgrade that lets him damage for hand size three times a turn, i.e. an invitation to buy another product to play the real Jakob Lynch.

When Leve was balanced via errata, Wyrd listed as one of its primary considerations players' financial investment from both first and second editions. This was after multiple years of seeing what Leve could do in second edition, potentially years after players had spent money on the original metal models. People who spent money purchasing a brand new crew to support the game shouldn't find that their pre-release purchases are already outdated within such a short time. Otherwise, every new release is just final phase play testing and advertisement for a subscription service.

[Omenbringer]

7 hours ago, benjoewoo said:

Someone loses with an errata, so it shouldn't be used lightly for the negative effects it can have--e.g. players buying Jakob Lynch on shelves can still get the pre-errata upgrade that lets him damage for hand size three times a turn, i.e. an invitation to buy another product to play the real Jakob Lynch.

When Leve was balanced via errata, Wyrd listed as one of its primary considerations players' financial investment from both first and second editions. This was after multiple years of seeing what Leve could do in second edition, potentially years after players had spent money on the original metal models. People who spent money purchasing a brand new crew to support the game shouldn't find that their pre-release purchases are already outdated within such a short time. Otherwise, every new release is just final phase play testing and advertisement for a subscription service.

I appreciate the tenor in which you posted.

The first point I feel are the crux of the issue.

Errata-ing Reva soon, before her general release is perferable to later when there are many more cards in circulation.

The second point, well some I agree with and some I do not. Leaving a problem model (and yes Levi has been a problem since first edition and was even pushed back a book in second edition) is not a good option. If simply possessing a model can make players leery of playing you that is not good for the community or for Wyrd (this applies whether we are talking about Reva or Rotten Belles or Guild Austringers). Problem models need to be addressed, obvious game imbalances work against community building. Also a "pre-release" model (or any model honestly) shouldn't come with the expectation that things will never change, especially if the model is skewing the power curve substantially.  While I don't think anyone is arguing for a subscription service (one of the reasons I am no longer interested in Dark Age), we don't want the other extreme either where you have to purchase the newest stuff to have a decent chance of winning (i.e. a lot of card games and Games Workshops model). Malifaux's big selling point was the low cost of entry and the "character" of the game. I would hazard the opinion that most of us got into it because of the aesthetics of one particular crew and not because we knew they were the most competitive option. It is in Wyrd's best interest to insure their game has a relative balance that is as close to perfect as possible. This sells more of their models and assists in recouping those production costs. Not doing so hampers sales.

As always my opinion. I am sure Wyrd is watching these threads and discussing things behind the scenes. As I have said previously it is our job as a community to identify issues, it is Wyrds job to figure out what to do about them.

[TheJoyInGaming]

I am going to be doing a walk through with my group on how to fight Reva this weekend. I'll post the results when they happen. I also may try home-ruling and playing with a slightly cuddled version of Reva in order to have her unbanned. If i do i'll report the consensus on perceived power level from my opponents as well as any crew and tactical adjustments the self cuddling necessitated. 

BTW does Reva's cult have a name? I feel that we ardent Reva supporters should have a name...

[Manic Mouse]

I've only played Reva once but I didn't even bother trying to attack her - she was attacking me from 21" away, and to get to her requires me traversing most of the board and through multiple road block models (corpse candles, shield bearers, mindless zombies). Even if you get into combat with her she's just as potent as when she's attacking 21" away anyway, and has a (0) to escape.

I think the problem with Reva is the combination of her extreme range, that range being almost impossible to get around (ignores cover, Df stance, damage reduction), the range is often also associated with models you are forced to spend AP on and deal with like corpse candles and mindless zombies, and a high minimum damage of 3.

You spend the game avoiding areas of the board (often with no way of removing the corpse markers) and wasting AP killing candles or zombies (she still gets to attack you after anyway when they drop a marker) while Reva sits just outside her deployment zone completely out of reach of you, and requiring you wade through her crew to even get to her.

Most masters require you to be in at least some kind of mild danger to be effective, Reva does not, while still dealing extremely respectable damage for a master and forcing you to spend AP to try and stop her having free reign on who she attacks (but not actually doing any damage to her).

I would reduce her min damage to 2 and reduce her corpse marker range to 12".  That still gives her irreducible damage that can bypass most defences, still gives her a 15" range and still gives her road block models.

[huntroll]

All this whining about Reva makes me really regret I didn't preorder her during GenCon. 

I also wonder if all the bitter people have ever played against a good Lilith player. One of the most insane hand sizes in the game and the potential to take two models out for a turn and swap one with one of your heavy hitters (preferably next to another one of your big guys) and to place a mobile terrain to stay out of LoS via Illusionary Forest, all of this while ignoring all LoS restrictions yourself. I doubt Reva would be any worse than that yet I don't see people crying for cuddles. 

[benjoewoo]

1 minute ago, Manic Mouse said:

I've only played Reva once but I didn't even bother trying to attack her - she was attacking me from 21" away, and to get to her requires me traversing most of the board and through multiple road block models (corpse candles, shield bearers, mindless zombies). Even if you get into combat with her she's just as potent as when she's attacking 21" away anyway, and has a (0) to escape.

I think the problem with Reva is the combination of her extreme range, that range being almost impossible to get around (ignores cover, Df stance, damage reduction), the range is often also associated with models you are forced to spend AP on and deal with like corpse candles and mindless zombies, and a high minimum damage of 3.

You spend the game avoiding areas of the board (often with no way of removing the corpse markers) and wasting AP killing candles or zombies (she still gets to attack you after anyway when they drop a marker) while Reva sits just outside her deployment zone completely out of reach of you, and requiring you wade through her crew to even get to her.

Most masters require you to be in at least some kind of mild danger to be effective, Reva does not, while still dealing extremely respectable damage for a master and forcing you to spend AP to try and stop her having free reign on who she attacks (but not actually doing any damage to her).

I would reduce her min damage to 2 and reduce her corpse marker range to 12".  That still gives her irreducible damage that can bypass most defences, still gives her a 15" range and still gives her road block models.

Similarly to what I am discussing with some other people here and other places, a cuddle now would be pre-mature and carry potentially large negative consequences. 

One of the more important things to point out is that people post about cuddling Reva, but there isn't a real discussion on how to balance the cuddle so that she's still playable. Why would I play a Ca 6 master who is subject to anti-melee and anti-Ca tech, who doesn't out range 7-9SS snipers, who can be engaged easily by melee masters with a resource intensive escape, and who barely out ranges shooting masters that do better damage per activation with more effective triggers to mitigate cover or reduction without relying on another model? Add in that her summoning is terrible, she has low survivability and no deterrents to attacking her, and one of her limited upgrades would become a coaster for not having half of its text.

She isn't a newer better master that outclasses the older masters. She's simply different and brings a more aggressive play style than what people normally expect from Ressers. 

[Manic Mouse]

31 minutes ago, benjoewoo said:

Similarly to what I am discussing with some other people here and other places, a cuddle now would be pre-mature and carry potentially large negative consequences.

As others have pointed out a cuddle prior to release would limit the potential of an overpowered and NPE model - so there are benefits to both. If I'm a new player and you have Reva dealing irreducible 3 min damage, that ignores most defensive things in the game, at 21" away while I can't touch her it isn't going to enamour me with Malifaux. If I'm a Reva player and I don't get to play her because nobody wants to play me again I'm not going to like the game, especially if she's one of my only masters.

36 minutes ago, benjoewoo said:

One of the more important things to point out is that people post about cuddling Reva, but there isn't a real discussion on how to balance the cuddle so that she's still playable. Why would I play a Ca 6 master who is subject to anti-melee and anti-Ca tech, who doesn't out range 7-9SS snipers, who can be engaged easily by melee masters with a resource intensive escape, and who barely out ranges shooting masters that do better damage per activation with more effective triggers to mitigate cover or reduction without relying on another model? Add in that her summoning is terrible, she has low survivability and no deterrents to attacking her, and one of her limited upgrades would become a coaster for not having half of its text.

Seems you're ignoring a lot of Revas strengths there. Her Ca attack is generally a positive - she will destroy spirits, ignores stuff like the drowned ability to reduce Ml damage. "Anti-Ca" tech generally removes suits when you are beside a model. Models are rarely beside Reva, if they are she can get away with a (0), and they are likely in the middle of her crew. Add to that what does losing the suit cost you? You're still hitting with a 6, with a 3" range and 3 min damage. And that's even if they can get to you. You still get to pick the lower of Df or Wp. You still get to ignore Df stance. You still get to have irreducible damage.

As for not out ranging 7-6ss snipers. They have to use 2ap to get one attack at that range, are affected by cover, need LOS (with upgrades Reva doesn't). You get 3 attacks instead of one. With better minimum damage and all the benefits outlined above to her attack.

The best range master in the game, Perdita, can only attack from 14" away, does less minimum damage (2v3), has to attack Df, can have her damage reduced. She needs a suit or stone to get 3 min damage. I would very much debate that perdita will deal more damage at 14" in an activation. Certainly she will deal less at 21 (she will deal zero).

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, Manic Mouse said:

 

The best range master in the game, Perdita, can only attack from 14" away, does less minimum damage (2v3), has to attack Df, can have her damage reduced. She needs a suit or stone to get 3 min damage. I would very much debate that perdita will deal more damage at 14" in an activation. Certainly she will deal less at 21 (she will deal zero).

not sure I agree with the original premise, but Reva does 0 damage at 21" away unless you have previously set the board up to her liking. On her turn she can summon a candle 8" away, then push it 5", so thats 13" away, with a 3" threat (Plus base size) putting her about 17" threat at the cost of 1 AP.  Perdita comes with a natural push  of 8" so she can shoot things at 22 inch away 3 times. Perdita can choose to do more damage to an armoured target than Reva can if you want her to, 

I think Reva is still new, and people haven't learnt how to face her. She is probably the strongest of the ripples masters, but I still don't see her as the strongest Ressurectionist master. As people come to understand her more, we#ll see how much her presence changes peoples lists  I can see a lot of Friekorps Specialists beign considered if your opponent picks resser.). 

Reva, to my mind, projects a large amount of force across the table, but thats largely what she does. She isn't the hardest hitting master, or the master with the best mobility, but she does have some nice tricks to make the most of her hitting power. Its a lot easier to learn to use her tricks than how to stop or even reduce them. Using the board to reduce her threat is going to be a big learning experience, and one which will make a huge difference, and her ht 3 means that a lot of the normal boards that are full of Ht2 los blocking terrain, is going to help her a lot. I personally think that we need to let people learn how to play against her before we can say she is over powered. I think I've faced her twice and seen her one other time, and they were close and interesting games, not one sided affairs that others have reported. This certainly colours my view on her as someone that is strong, but the questions she asks can be answered.