Theoryfaux: Asami

[PeregrineFalcon]

8 minutes ago, mythicFOX said:

I'm now around ten games in with Asami and have taken her to a couple of local tournaments. She's done well for me, hitting the podium both times (3rd/15 and 3rd/24).  Being new to both Ten Thunders and Asami I'm still making plenty of errors, so there's lots of room to improve my performance.

I'm now getting fairly settled on the upgrade load out I like for her;

As others have said Heavenly Design is an auto include, the (0) place alone is worth the price and the aura is great in a lot of places.  

I think a lot of players are undervaluing the 'when your opponent scores a VP' effects generally.  In most objective sets if your opponent isn't scoring 1VP a turn they aren't just losing, they're losing badly, at which point you're less concerned if you get this effect or not.

I've been really surprised by how much I like The Fate of Mortals on Asami. The ability to up the flicker on your models when opponents score has let me really keep things around that otherwise wouldn't be able to, effectively saving an AP and a 9:masks each time. The card draw comes up often enough to be relevant. I'm also liking Equality on her to keep her wounds up and mitigate the use of her (1) charge aura.

I'm now convinced Nefarious Pact is a red herring, almost all the condition removal in the game that would remove your flicker is situational enough that you don't need this, and I've found that drawing cards after Asami's activated is much lower value than I'd expected.  I'm also yet to be sold that most of the time Grasping Strands isn't just a tax on poor play, IE it's only useful once you've made a mistake.  I need to test that one more to be sure though.

I think their are definitely objective sets where Feign Weakness is good, but I've not bumped into one to really test that out yet.

Agreed on just about all of this. Curious if you could elaborate on how you think grasping strands is useful only when you've made a mistake? I've been using it to protect many of my key models from key charges. Asami protecting Graves from a charge in a recent game was awesome. But yeah all of this is something I agree with and Equality is so good in her. 

 

I need to give the fate of morals more time as I have been leaving it off due to its costs. 

[tomjoad]

16 minutes ago, mythicFOX said:

I think their are definitely objective sets where Feign Weakness is good, but I've not bumped into one to really test that out yet.

I've taken it it scheme pools with one scheme that allows all points to be scored at once/at end of game, and in pools with two or more such schemes. Overall, I'm coming to think that I'll only be taking it if I can score all 6 scheme points at the end of the game from now on, as it's kind of meh otherwise. Another time I'll be inclined towards it, though, is when Mark for Death pops up. Mark for Death is extremely easy to score 3 points against Asami with, but it also scores immediately, not at the end of the turn. If they Mark a yokai, then the yokai hits a couple attacks to flicker away, they get the point, and you immediately get a summon. It can get pretty nasty. So essentially, you're making them choose between an easy 3 points, or denying you ~15ss of free models.

As for Equality, I think I will always buy this in every crew from now on; I've been trying it on Yasunori, hoping for a bit of free healing to keep him blenderizing things for an extra turn or two, but the returns have been pretty limited so far. Yasunori is a god, though, and I need to get serious about finding an suitable proxy for him.

[Skitt_Happens]

On 04/09/2016 at 7:09 PM, AverageGatsby said:

I've played five games with Asami at this point. I've taken feigned weakness four times and have yet to summon from it. (the one game I didn't take it obviously I would have gotten a summon) 

I suspect this is not a coincidence: in general, players fear summoning and will go to great lengths to deny their opponent any opportunity to do so - even pick schemes that are sub-optimal for their crew... look at it this way, would you pay one stone for an upgrade that allowed you to pick your opponent's schemes? As soon as you reveal your crew, your opponent will look at the scheme pool and lean towards end of game scores. With Asami, Tengu, Yu and probably some others I can't think of right now, schemes like search the ruins, even breakthrough and entourage, are reasonably easy to deny. The trick for me, is taking feigned weakness to push your opponent towards certain schemes, but rather than trying to get summons off by selecting the same schemes, you take the Hunting Parties etc. and build up a nice vp lead instead.

Still Theoryfaux: Her Oniness is now in my possession but currently on the painting table.

[Skitt_Happens]

P.s. Add Terracotta Warrior to the mix, once you know they've taken the schemes you told them to, just swap the upgrade!

[mythicFOX]

On 9/9/2016 at 4:11 PM, PeregrineFalcon said:

Curious if you could elaborate on how you think grasping strands is useful only when you've made a mistake? I've been using it to protect many of my key models from key charges. Asami protecting Graves from a charge in a recent game was awesome.

Sure.  I should say I'm still evaluating this one, so I reserve the right to change my mind.

I've seen a lot of comments that this is great for protecting Asami from being charged by things she doesn't want to be charged by.  I would argue that given her movement speed and use of models as ablative resources if she's being charged by something you don't want her to be charged by it will almost always be because you've made a mistake.  I tend to assign a low value upgrades that require me to make mistakes in order to get full value from them.

The upgrade has, as you say, some use for protecting other models.  Given the charging model has to end the charge within the aura this means the model you're protecting will need to be more inside the aura than the charger's melee range, and also not be blocking LOS between the charger and Asami.  This means anything with a 3" melee can just ignore the aura (3"+30mm > 4" aura) and a lot of the time the charger will be able to charge so as to put the model they want to attack between them and Asami, blocking LOS and the aura.

To my eyes this makes the upgrade a little too fiddly for high level play.  I need more time with it to be sure though.

[Tokapondora]

I really feel Feigned Weakness and Grasping Strands are upgrades you're beter off never taking. Strands' aura is too small to do anything significant and the fact that the trigger also works on a just kills that last bit of utility.

Feigned Weakness means that you're reliant on your opponent, who can easily not play into your hand. It also means you have to work more with schemes that go off in one go, which tend to be less reliable as well (again, especially if your opponent notices that's the direction you wanna take this). Sure, you could take it as a bluff, but your playstyle should really quickly make apparent what you're up to. 

Heavenly Design is the obvious auto take. Nefarious Pact is a bit trickier... The card draw is obviously needed but coming after Asami has activated means you're gonna have to cross your fingers and hope it's anything your crew can attack with, rather than just the 6+ Asami needs. Very gamble-y. But add to that the fact that I can't even remember the last time I was up against a crew without a Chiaki/Johan/Stalker and it suddenly becomes something I often feel forced to cling on to.

And lastly, Fate of Mortals... I don't know. The flicker is nice but reliant on my opponent which I don't like. The card draw... is really hampered by the Oni Minions bit. Which means that unless you have the right hand to spawn something killy, the right hand still to get them to actually get to the final blow with that Ml5 and some twists in playstyle to make that minion give the final blow you're basically holding it in the hopes you get lucky. Which describes this entire upgrade, really. I'll admit I only took it twice, but both times it got me fuck-all (1 and 2 flicker respectively). And at 2 SS and an upgrade slot it's just that tad too expensive to just throw it on models willy-nilly.

[mythicFOX]

 

While I accept the view that you don't really want opponents scoring VP, the reality is most of the time your opponent is going to score some VP during a game, and if they aren't scoring VP that's actually very good for you.  In the vast majority of objective sets if your opponent isn't scoring at least 1VP/turn from turn two on then they have lost the game, or are at the least so far behind that I can live without the bonus. So the way I look at The Fate of Mortals (and Equality) is that it's really a win/win.

Valuing bonus flicker is IMO an interesting topic.  Summoning a model with Flicker +1 requires 1AP from your master and either a good mask or a good card and a soul stone. So you can take the view that every time you get the flicker from TFoM you're getting up to the same value as a summon for free, because you're keeping a model alive you'd need to otherwise re-summon.  The value is still lower than a new summon under a lot of circumstances (eg model already has more than Flicker +1), but I think it's significant enough to be worth it.

 

I do think that we're being overly afraid of condition removal. If you think about most models that get summoned they normally come in on very low wounds, so the number of models who can 'one shot' them off the board is fairly high.  Compare that to our summons and they're vulnerable to much lower number of more specialist models. Most of the attacks which can remove our flicker come with TNs and requirements that don't make them overly efficient to use offensively.   

Also note that if an opponent removes the Flicker condition from our model they do not count as sacrificing the model, as the model is actually sac'ed by their own condition.  So they can't use condition removal to score for kill based objectives. 

[Eclipse]

This might sound weak, but I'm more then willing to take an insurance policy upgrade or two. Still, it depends on what this insurance policy covers... So lets look at our options:
- You have brought the Fate of Mortals upgrade. To be honest I'm not a fan of the upgrade because it requires LoS to make it work. You get to give Flicker+1 on a model when the opponent scores? Set up a summon with Flicker+2 and see it live three turns. Value. The card draw would be nice, but it specifies Oni Minions only so BOO. Still: A lowly Yokai hits above it's point cost and kills something? Draw a card. Value. Actually, it sounds like it is pretty much Yokai support. Curios fact: You can also give something that has not been summoned the Flicker+1, so they would be sacrificed if you also have the Heavenly Design. Not sure if that would ever be useful, but still.
- You have brought the Nefarious Pact upgrade. You always draw a card at the end of Asami's activation, although it's pretty useless for you then. Let's Disregard this part for nowand consider it a bonus. Imagine that the opponent does not have condition removal: Witchling Stalker, Johan, Mancha Roja or McTavish with Mud Toss, LR Monk, Chiaki, Shenlong, am I missing something? Now, these models are somewhat often brought in lists - but a faction usually has only Johan or one model that can remove conditions (we have the most, I believe). In the off chance that they have brought some condition removal it's usually conditional in it's use, or has range limitations, etc. The 'removing' model can not be everywhere and does not always have the resources to remove the Flicker. What's more, the summoned models are like timed bombs - they are not 'models', they are attacks, or scheme markers, or Slow/Paralyze/Damage missiles. For the most part, only a summoned Jorogumo would be worth it to keep around - and that won't happen too often (see, they learned from Kirai and her endless Hanged!!). Actually, screw it. This upgrade is a waste of soulstones. Good thing you don't have to buy it because if you feel you desperately need it, you can swap something else for it with the Terracota Warrior you brought, because WHY would you not bring one?
- Grasping Strands is a weird one. I feel like I should hate it and love it at the same time (so secretly worship it, but not be willing to admit it openly??). It does mitigate your mistakes and getting charged. The 4" is pretty lackluster on other models, and I prefer spreading around more most of the time. But rather then looking at it as damage mitigation, think of it as preventive insurance. When you need to protect something from charges place Asami near the model you want to protect (or summon something in the way of the charge). See them waste AP and cringe. Also, the trigger for a (extremely short range) melee attack is pretty rad and should have been built in. Like this it adds another costly option on an already resource intensive Master (not that this problem managed to obstruct me from doing well with Lucius in the long run). Overall, more options and board presence the opponent has to account for at the cost of 1ss is cheap enough to be worth it imo - even if you do not make use of the abilities, you threaten to do so and might cause the opponent to make suboptimal choices. Just like the threat that Katanaka Snipers present, only not as domineering.
- And speaking about forcing the opponent into making suboptimal choices: I present to you Feign Weakness. It's a win-win situation in my point of view. I mean, seriously, is any of the following case scenarios bad: The other person is not scoring VP? Great, you are doing well. They might even be scared of some effect that will give you an advantage (e.g., free summoning or other stuff) and are subconsciously holding back. If so, even more reason to be content, things are going your way. On the other hand, if the upgrades do get to do their work, the bonuses are actually pretty nice and can turn a mistake or a disadvantage around to some extent. As I said, win-win, none the wiser.
- Oh, by the by, we have Equality now. Not like we feel oppressed, misrepresented or discriminated against because of some ancient Asian heritage. Just like Feigned Weakness, if they are not scoring the strategy you are doing good. If they are, you get a compensation for it. Oh, and it's a solid upgrade you can finally put on Masters, Henchthings and Enforcers alike. Finally something solid to take for Show of Force (ugh, need more Force!)
This is my personal view on these new (Asami) upgrades. Everyone can have their own opinion, so others might prefer more straightforward and clear cut advantages. If so, take something else and/or none of the above. I'm all about potential, so I'm willing to tinker around with said upgrades to try some stuff out myself (when Asami is out, so in some unclear point in the future). Peace.

[Gottkaiser]

After playing Killjoy a few times with McCabe, I started thinking about using him in an Asami list. The combination with Chiaki is nice, but why risk to move her to the enemy? My delivery system would be a yokai and some nice cards in hand:

-Summon in a Yokai, choose for the additional flicker

-charge something and hit it twice (you get for charge attacks)

-for both hits you choose the trigger that reduces flicker by one and gives you on the damage flips

-poor Yokai dies and sad little Killjoy pops out to take revenge...

 

It's a bit risky against models with Defense above 5, but against Df 5 or lower you should be fine.

[InvokeChaos]

I played my first Asami game finally last night, and let me tell you, those Yokai are MONSTROUS. So something I haven't seen talked about but ran into last night: Yokai can potentially double charge.

I was fighting in the center, and after a yokai charged into a model, I removed a flicker but forgot about Ephemeral Warrior. We were talking about it afterwards and I realized that Asami was less than 8" away. If you use the trigger to soul burn, then push after damaging on your second charge attack, you can place within 4" of Asami, potentially allowing you to charge for 1AP again. It's really making me consider hiring a couple in to start.

As to upgrades:

I love grasping strands.

I understand the concept of if you're getting charged you're doing it wrong... but let's face it: Nekima bombs, Killjoy bombs and Beast bombs do not need you to "make a mistake" to get in your master's face. In fact, most lists i've played that employ these tactics are going to do that regardless unless you hang back in your deployment, sometimes even then.

It's also insurance. It's aura 4... like your charge aura for oni... If you want to get that 1AP charge off, Asami HAS to be in LoS and within 4" of your oni. While yes, ideally you can do this from cover, even if she is in cover, it helps protect the minions you just summoned from getting alpha'd down. And if you have to be more aggressive in your placements, it can be a great boon. 

Anyways, my two cents for right now. Nother game tomorrow, more to come!

Yokai are AWESOME!

[mythicFOX]

Agree on Yokai, they're awesome and her go-to summon.  I'm only reluctant to hire them because I only own three!

Just a note on strands though; it's not your model that has to be in the 4 for strands, it's the charging model.  Which makes it's protection for models other than Asami herself significantly lower than 4", and it's no protection against models with 3 attacks.  

The value of strands will depend a fair bit on the prevalence of crews in your meta that want to kill Asami by charging her, and your ability to reliably predict when your going to face one of them.

 

[Skitt_Happens]

I played my first 3 games with Asami earlier this week: it feels like learning to play the game all over again! I made some pretty basic errors.

I threw grasping strands on just to try it - for one AP I dragged in a scion of black blood, took a bite for 8 damage (red joker) and then walked 3" away... I have a great respect for this upgrade, and the aura never came up. I think it's well worth 1 ss.

I kept trying Fate of Mortals on Betti - bad idea. I think it has a place on Asami, but not anyone else as they tend to be in the wrong position to make benefit of it. I think I took it all 3 games and didn't get a single thing out of it, but I see its worth - really struggling to get flicker.

[tomjoad]

7 hours ago, mythicFOX said:

Agree on Yokai, they're awesome and her go-to summon.  I'm only reluctant to hire them because I only own three!

I'm curious if they'll release them as an individual box. I have definitely got to a pint in games where all my yokai are out and I'm like "Well, I guess I have to summon a dumb obsidian oni now..."

[PeregrineFalcon]

I think the super weasel is actually going to be going into some lists I want to try with her. Reliably handing out burning and if you use Teracotta Warriors you can get some nice synergy there. Hope people haven't discounted how great he can be in a certain (and yes different than we've talked about in this thread) playstyle.

[Clockwork_Fish]

I'm trying to get my first game with Asami in this weekend, and was thinking of taking the Dawn Serpent.  Has anyone tried it?

[triedman99]

3 hours ago, Clockwork_Fish said:

I'm trying to get my first game with Asami in this weekend, and was thinking of taking the Dawn Serpent.  Has anyone tried it?

I've gotten several games in with her, and I'm planning to try the Dawn Serpent with her next game. Solid model, high wounds, hard to kill, flight, ML and SH of 7, and Asami can give it Focus +2 to hit severe and those blast markers, I think he can do a ton of damage. Everything he gives burning to will benefit the Obsidian Oni's CA attack. And all those positive flips will really help ease the pressure on your control hand (Asami just needs so many cards to do things).

Summon Yokai, have them charge in for +attack flips to do as much damage as they can, Dawn Serpent to finish models off with blasts, Ohaguro constantly threatening to charge, and Asami plus a summoned obsidian oni or jorogumo should be able to control a lot of the table, leaving your scheme runners to get their scheming done.

At least, that's how it works in my head. I'll see how it works in real life soon.

[InvokeChaos]

I really like the idea of the Dawn Serpent. I've been using the Emissary my last two games and he just seemed to soak up damage. The Dawn Serpent can do that as well, but that burning synergy with the Obsidian Oni's is legit.

Obsidian Oni are FANTASTIC models. Never disappointed with them. Between them and Yokai, I'm a very very happy Asami player.

Though I'm currently looking at a weird list that runs Hannah, Anna and Tannen... I have 8 activations still and I really like it on paper. I have been struggling to get consistent summons in, usually because I'm not finding the high cards needed, and running out of stones. I will report back once I've tried it out.

Won my last two games with Asami though, so really digging her.

[Eichohrkatz]

I have a short question, do Oni who were summoned by Asami have the "slow" condition? Or is the Flicker Condition instead of slow?

[PeregrineFalcon]

4 minutes ago, Eichohrkatz said:

I have a short question, do Oni who were summoned by Asami have the "slow" condition? Or is the Flicker Condition instead of slow?

They are slow and cannot take interacts the turn they are summoned. The slow is mitigated by the fact they can all 1AP charge within 4"  of her though.

[tomjoad]

5 minutes ago, Eichohrkatz said:

I have a short question, do Oni who were summoned by Asami have the "slow" condition? Or is the Flicker Condition instead of slow?

Unless otherwise specified, a summoned model always has Slow and is unable to interact on the turn it was summoned.

[Eichohrkatz]

Thanks for the Quick answer.

[Tokapondora]

So I've been wondering; what schemes and opposing factions would you guys say Asami is a better choice for over other TT masters?

[Skitt_Happens]

Set up; detonate the charges; occupy their turf; breakthrough; entourage. These are the schemes that have come up that are an easy 3vp with Heavenly Design attached...

At the moment I'm taking her for all strats and schemes.

[Tokapondora]

Set Up and Detonate I get, though I think you'd probably have an easier time Wandering River Bombing them in (especially Set Up), but Occupy, Breakthrough and Entourage? With her minions having a habit of disappearing and her not getting through enemy lines unscathed, why would you take her over say McCabe for these?

[Cadaverousbirth]

The 6" place is gold and she's quick. McCabe can get engaged and slowed down. Theres no stopping the place except a Black Joker or a really terrible hand.