Schemes & Stones Master Spotlight Shenlong

[Khyodee]

http://schemesandstones.podbean.com/e/episode-43-master-spotlight-shenlong/

 

Leave your feedback for this weeks episode here.

[mythicFOX]

Sweet!

Downloading now.

[Rathnard]

Looking forward to listening to this! Shenlong's a Master I've tried, but he's never quite worked for me.

[D_acolyte]

I am only about 36 minutes in and already this sounds more offensive then most people in my local meta play, which is good. Waiting to get to his model list the guy takes.

[tomjoad]

2 hours ago, D_acolyte said:

I am only about 36 minutes in and already this sounds more offensive then most people in my local meta play, which is good. Waiting to get to his model list the guy takes.

I am offended by offensive Shenlong play.

I'm just about to listen; I'll be interested to see what he says about that play style. I've heard arguments for offensively using Shenlong before, but I haven't been compelled by them yet. I'm sure I'll have more relevant thoughts on this later today. 

[D_acolyte]

Just now, tomjoad said:

I am offended by offensive Shenlong play.

I'm just about to listen; I'll be interested to see what he says about that play style. I've heard arguments for offensively using Shenlong before, but I haven't been compelled by them yet. I'm sure I'll have more relevant thoughts on this later today. 

Every time I see a defensive or scheme Shenlong he dies early and is less then impressive.

[tomjoad]

Just now, D_acolyte said:

Every time I see a defensive or scheme Shenlong he dies early and is less then impressive.

This has not been my experience with him. Every time I've tried him or seen him used as an offensive threat he's been unimpressive and not as effective as Lynch would have been in the same spot. I shouldn't comment too much before I'm more than 5 minutes into the episode, but I find that if a golden opportunity for a Fast Shenlong to charge and kill multiple scheme runners/other weaker minions comes up, you should take it. But to have my A plan with him be attacking...I can't see it at all.

[Icemyn]

Just to correct an error in the Podcast at the 15 minute mark.

Dave says that defensive is a weird condition and does not end at the end of the turn and that is not correct in this case.

If you take the defensive stance action it will end at the beginning of your next activation, but the defensive +1 condition gained from the Low River Style will end at the end of the turn. The reason for this is because it is a condition that doesn't have a set duration and all conditions like that end at eot.

This is actually beneficial as the FAQ tells us that the most recently applied stack of a condition determines it's end timing. So if Shenlong is attacked and successfully defends he gets defensive +1 until EOT. Then he can activate and take the defensive stance action and have defensive + 2 until his next activation. Unless you get attacked again and succeed in a duel, then the condition would once again end EOT.

FAQ for reference:

40) Q: If a model gains a stackable Condition from two different sources each with a different timing for when the Condition ends, when does the Condition end? For example, if a model takes the Defensive Stance Action to gain Defensive +1 until the start of its next Activation, but then gains the Defensive Condition from the Guardian which lasts until the start of the Guardian’s Activation, when does the Condition end?
A: The most recent application of a stackable Condition determines its end point. So in the example above, the model would gain Defensive +1 which ends at the start of its next Activation. Then the model gains an additional Defensive +2 from the Guardian, which stacks to Defensive +3 and ends when the Guardian starts its next Activation or is removed from play. The end time on the Defensive gained from the Guardian is used because that was the most recent application of the Condition.

[tadaka]

Yep looks legit to me would drop off at end of turn. Disapointing for my excitement  at what he was saying about shen.

[tomjoad]

4 hours ago, tadaka said:

Yep looks legit to me would drop off at end of turn. Disapointing for my excitement  at what he was saying about shen.

This actually makes it possible to keep his Defensive condition forever. This is good for Shenlong. This way, you just have to get a version of it that ends at end of turn before you activate, then a version that ends when you next activate to keep it rolling over. It's a lot of work sometimes, but to be able to heal 4 wounds per AP, it can be worth it.

[tomjoad]

On 7/28/2016 at 8:05 AM, D_acolyte said:

I am only about 36 minutes in and already this sounds more offensive then most people in my local meta play, which is good. Waiting to get to his model list the guy takes.

So, yeah, I should have waited until I listened to the whole podcast before commenting. His suggestions were pretty much exactly how I play Shenlong most of the time. Support, healing, movement, and occasionally an opportunistic face-beater. Using High River as a defensive aid had never occurred to me before though, and I'm definitely going to try that out.

[tadaka]

I dont get how a high river monk helps him get defensive. What am i missing

[Lakshman]

Not High River Monk, High River Style. It can be used in case of defensive duels - if you really need to defend against some attack that could paralyze you or deal lots of damage, you could just suffer a few wounds to increase your duel total and win.

[tadaka]

Got ya was combining 2 posts as one thought. Not sure how shen would get his infinite lasting d condition i get the idea but what gives him defensive that ends before he activates to get that rolling

[tadaka]

I guess you just need to convince the other player to attack you each turn before you activate. Kind of cool

 

Nm that does not work. You would need to take the action to get the condition.

[Jude]

Good timing on this as I was just putting together his crew this morning.

I'm curious if he's used the Effigy much and how useful it was. The free scheme marker seem like they might be overkill, but maybe not. You'd probably get more all around utility from a Wastrel.

[BigHammer]

2 hours ago, Jude said:

Good timing on this as I was just putting together his crew this morning.

I'm curious if he's used the Effigy much and how useful it was. The free scheme marker seem like they might be overkill, but maybe not. You'd probably get more all around utility from a Wastrel.

I like the effigy, but it's a model that Shenlong doesn't really need. The "free" scheme marker still costs you a 10, where you could easily just put that marker down a bit further back and use mighty gust to get it to where you need it anyway.

Into Shadow is probably a much more important ability, especially if you're going to jam Shenlong into the enemy, but even then with all of his defensive tricks already you could just take another wastrel or tengu instead.

The effigy also benefits very little from Shenlong. Focus doesn't really improve its attack action much, and it's usually using that (0)action already anyway.

[scarlett fever]

On 29/07/2016 at 6:33 AM, Icemyn said:

Just to correct an error in the Podcast at the 15 minute mark.

Dave says that defensive is a weird condition and does not end at the end of the turn and that is not correct in this case.

If you take the defensive stance action it will end at the beginning of your next activation, but the defensive +1 condition gained from the Low River Style will end at the end of the turn. The reason for this is because it is a condition that doesn't have a set duration and all conditions like that end at eot.

This is actually beneficial as the FAQ tells us that the most recently applied stack of a condition determines it's end timing. So if Shenlong is attacked and successfully defends he gets defensive +1 until EOT. Then he can activate and take the defensive stance action and have defensive + 2 until his next activation. Unless you get attacked again and succeed in a duel, then the condition would once again end EOT.

FAQ for reference:

40) Q: If a model gains a stackable Condition from two different sources each with a different timing for when the Condition ends, when does the Condition end? For example, if a model takes the Defensive Stance Action to gain Defensive +1 until the start of its next Activation, but then gains the Defensive Condition from the Guardian which lasts until the start of the Guardian’s Activation, when does the Condition end?
A: The most recent application of a stackable Condition determines its end point. So in the example above, the model would gain Defensive +1 which ends at the start of its next Activation. Then the model gains an additional Defensive +2 from the Guardian, which stacks to Defensive +3 and ends when the Guardian starts its next Activation or is removed from play. The end time on the Defensive gained from the Guardian is used because that was the most recent application of the Condition.

Not to be a cold fish, but whilst this is true, this is one of those things that I try to avoid in a tourney, along with the fact that Shenlongs limited Upgrades are not Rare 1 (in the case of discarding to Yu). Having to explain all my Shenlong condition shuffling shenanigans can be enough without rules arguing points like this to get an edge. If I know my opponent and they're au fait with Shenlong that's different, but otherwise, nup.

For me it sits in the company of Obeying Paralysed models, things that work but are a downer to play.

[Icemyn]

6 hours ago, scarlett fever said:

Not to be a cold fish, but whilst this is true, this is one of those things that I try to avoid in a tourney, along with the fact that Shenlongs limited Upgrades are not Rare 1 (in the case of discarding to Yu). Having to explain all my Shenlong condition shuffling shenanigans can be enough without rules arguing points like this to get an edge. If I know my opponent and they're au fait with Shenlong that's different, but otherwise, nup.

For me it sits in the company of Obeying Paralysed models, things that work but are a downer to play.

Being honest, I do not understand your complaint. And not just your complaint, but that line of reasoning in general.

If your opponent doesn't understand how cover works would you not shoot them? Of course not.
The real issue is that you feel that this rules interaction is cheesy or unfair in some way.
It's not, it's just another facet in a multifaceted game. We don't get to pick and choose what rules we think are fair.

It's my opinion that you should be using these rare interactions to teach people the rules, especially in casual play.
That way people are more prepared for things in tournament play.
That and if it's a tournament as you say, I am not going to handicap myself to avoid what would likely be a non-issue.

Aside: Shenlong and Sensei Yu can already just take the same Limited upgrade in hiring, why is it you believe they should be rare 1?

 

[qoob]

I like the episode - There are ways to play him even more aggressive. He is capable of killing the opponents master in the first turn - The look in the opponents face is priceless. 

[scarlett fever]

6 hours ago, Icemyn said:

Being honest, I do not understand your complaint. And not just your complaint, but that line of reasoning in general.

If your opponent doesn't understand how cover works would you not shoot them? Of course not.
The real issue is that you feel that this rules interaction is cheesy or unfair in some way.
It's not, it's just another facet in a multifaceted game. We don't get to pick and choose what rules we think are fair.

It's my opinion that you should be using these rare interactions to teach people the rules, especially in casual play.
That way people are more prepared for things in tournament play.
That and if it's a tournament as you say, I am not going to handicap myself to avoid what would likely be a non-issue.

Aside: Shenlong and Sensei Yu can already just take the same Limited upgrade in hiring, why is it you believe they should be rare 1?

 

Fair points, it was a poorly formed post from me and worded slightly abrasively.

It's not that I think the rules interactions are cheesy or unfair, it's that it can can be seen as such and can change the tone of a game, which is more difficult to manage in a tournament where I'm going to be playing harder to begin with. I think some people are more heavily into exploring the finer intricacies of the rules, which Malifaux really caters to, and enjoy these discoveries. I certainly do and the stronger players in the scenes I've been in do too.

But I've had some people almost look at me like I'm cheating when I play Shenlong, simply because you have to play so fast to get all your interactions happening and it can be completely baffling for an opponent. I'm always careful to give a running commentary as I play but it doesn't stop the bemused looks as there's a lot to take in. So I do try to gauge my opponent in tournaments to some degree as when these 'teachings' become argumentative they slow down the game and stop me enjoying it.

Having said that I realise that I was wrong about Defensive, there is no way to avoid this with the way Shenlong plays, the rules are the rules, good call.

And I don't believe the upgrade should be rare 1, it's that if Shenlong chooses to attach the Upgrade he is already carrying then both him and Yu end up with the same Upgrade, another thing that can require some explanation. However a good way to help me explain this might be to get additional copies of the Upgrades.

All just my subjective opinion of course.

[Skitt_Happens]

On 29/07/2016 at 5:00 PM, tomjoad said:

This actually makes it possible to keep his Defensive condition forever. This is good for Shenlong. This way, you just have to get a version of it that ends at end of turn before you activate, then a version that ends when you next activate to keep it rolling over. It's a lot of work sometimes, but to be able to heal 4 wounds per AP, it can be worth it.

Yup. Requires your opponent to be very obliging or some less than ideal use of Obey though.

[Cadaverousbirth]

20 hours ago, scarlett fever said:

And I don't believe the upgrade should be rare 1, it's that if Shenlong chooses to attach the Upgrade he is already carrying then both him and Yu end up with the same Upgrade, another thing that can require some explanation. However a good way to help me explain this might be to get additional copies of the Upgrades.

(Emphasis mine)

I apologize if I misunderstand what you said here but Shenlong and Sensei Yu can not have the same upgrade at the same time. Shenlong's (0) Monk of Many Styles says "Choose a Limited Upgrade with the Restriction of Shenlong. If another friendly model has the chosen upgrade attached, discard it."

Looking that up reminded me that just because Sensei Yu has an upgrade, it doesn't mean Shen cannot get it back on himself if he needs it.

[scarlett fever]

11 hours ago, Cadaverousbirth said:

(Emphasis mine)

I apologize if I misunderstand what you said here but Shenlong and Sensei Yu can not have the same upgrade at the same time. Shenlong's (0) Monk of Many Styles says "Choose a Limited Upgrade with the Restriction of Shenlong. If another friendly model has the chosen upgrade attached, discard it."

Looking that up reminded me that just because Sensei Yu has an upgrade, it doesn't mean Shen cannot get it back on himself if he needs it.

To quote the full text.

Shenlong's Monk of Many Styles "Choose a Limited Upgrade with the Restriction of Shenlong. If another friendly model has the chosen upgrade attached, discard it. This model may discard a Limited Upgrade attached to attach the chosen Upgrade."

Sensei Yu's Journeyman of the Four Styles. "If a friendly Shenlong discards an Upgrade, this model may immediately attach it ignoring all restrictions. If this model has more than one Limited Upgrade attached, it must immediately discard one of them."

So Shenlong has Wandering River Style attached and performs Monk of Many Styles, he chooses the Wandering River Style Upgrade, which is currently not attached to another friendly model. He discards one copy of Wandering River Style to attach the second copy of Wandering River Style. The first copy discarded attaches to Sensei Yu.

So maybe it's just me and I've only played Shenlong 15 times in tourneys and only in Australia and New Zealand, though I did play him 6 times in a row at the awesome Twatifaux, which had 50 competitors. However for what it's worth my tournament experience of Shenlong is thus. He is a complex Master involving a heap of condition switching and some of his interactions dig into the corners of play, so whilst Iceman says he wouldn't do anything that he feels would 'handicap' his play, in may experience the more complex corner interactions handicap my play and enjoyment against many opponents. I'd like to believe that I'm not a slow player, I purposely play Shenlong very fast in tournaments now, describe every interaction I'm doing out loud and try to give my self just a couple of 'thought-pauses' per game. However I do find myself answering a lot of questions and the more I play at the edges of the game the more difficult the conversations can become in the heat of a game and an opponent can sometimes feel a bit 'cheated'. This is totally different against my regular opponents as we have mutual trust, so even if they don't understand immediately they'll either accept and keep playing or we'll discuss it and they'll understand.

The upside of all this is if I'm finding my game going this way, it becomes less fun and I'll start to avoid the more janky rulings. And as for playing to win in a tournament(unless me or my opponent is going for ultraviolence play), I should start looking to get my VP early in case the game times out before turn 5. Which again starts to feel janky.

But obviously these are just my personal experiences/feelings.

Again, apologies over the initial post as this Defensive interaction is fairly unavoidable in general Shenlong play. Which invalidates much of what I've said, ha, but doesn't change the fact that I try to avoid the more corner case rulings when possible.

But great podcast. One thing I'd like to point out from the cast though is it's actually bloody hard to get Reactivate off Tara as she doesn't actually gain the Reactivate Condition until all her other models have activated. Before this she gains the condition Eternal. So you can only try to get it if you out-activate her and play Shenlong after her.

[Skitt_Happens]

Or activate shenlong after all opponent models have activated but before tara has reactivated. It's a small windows but it is there.