Schemes & Stones Building On A Budget (Ressers)

[Khyodee]

Let me know what you think of the article and post your revisions, missing lists, and reasoning for me to look over. If I like it, I'll add/change things.

 

https://schemesandstones.wordpress.com/2016/07/25/building-on-a-budget-ressurectionists/
 

[daniello_s]

I really enjoy reading your stuff. Well done, man.

[Paddywhack]

I would argue that the yan Lo build doesn't 'need' the Nicodem box set. I think you could replace that with Izamu ($16), Shikome ($16),  and either Yin ($11), bette Noir ($11) or even Crooligans ($18). Those keep you under the $101 target and still give you good minions that can also serve as fast scheme runners in the Shikome, a beater with Izamu (and possibly Bette) and either a support model in Yin or more scheme runners with Crooligans. This still gives you Ashigaru to summon with Toshiro and more bodies on the table if you go with Crooligans so when they die you can draw more Chi and have Toshiro turn them into Ashigaru. The Shikome also have some added synergy being Spirits so Yan Lo could potentially make them take an action.

I also really like the Drowned with Yan Lo, but not sure that they are better than the Shikome.  Of course we could debate the best buys back and forth for ever, but I'm still not sure that Nicodem's box is the best mix with Yan Lo. I don't see Mortimer or the Punk Zombies as being all that necessary with him. 

 

[Khyodee]

I agree that I was probably most on the fence with Yan Lo and I had a couple versions that I was debating over to take with him. I showed the list to Poe and he said to go Punk Zombies (and as I mention I don't like buying minions found in a master box) so I went with Open Grave instead.

[doombladez]

Thanks for this, if any faction needed this its Ressers. 

[Myyrä]

If you considered purchasing Rotten Belles outside the Seamus crew box, I think you could make some better lists. It would be useful even if you decided to get Seamus at a later date, because he can use more than three of them. McMourning, Nico and Molly would all probably want them.

[Flat Tooth]

Thanks for taking the time to do these!

[oryxwild]

I disagree with a bunch of things you've done here. I like the idea and I think it's interesting. I also have a lot of perspective, since I just started playing malifaux about a year ago, started with ressers (seamus) and bought mcm box second. 

This is common advice, however, imo it is not very good advice for a noob. 

First off; Damage is fun. Yes, you have to run around and do stuff, summon, drop schemes, interact, etc etc. My experience with ressers has been that they are the least killy of the various factions, and that you will usually be outgunned, all your guys will die, and you will feel like you're losing even if you aren't. Since you're new and are probably bad, you probably are losing anyway. You either need to summon a lot of things to make up for generally subpar everything (barring movement and summoning, both of those are excellent), or you need to be able to control the board well enough to mitigate that offensive. The problem with option 1 is that not all masters summon well or easily; the problem with option 2 is that it's very difficult when learning the game to understand how to control the board. 

So, if you buy Seamus and McM together, you get a lot of support models. Sure, both masters ARE powerful enough to be able to win the game by themselves, but for a new player it's a very unrealistic expectation. More likely they're going to play a few games against their friend's new (ramos with joss/howard, lillith, ulix, viks, perdita, other random killy crew) and struggle to understand why their models suck so much by comparison. Even after playing many games of malifaux, 3 games against lillith almost convinced me to change factions because hot ****, that is some bull**** right there. Basically, for a beginner, it's very hard to use nurses and belles to best advantage WHILE thinking about schemes/strats etc.

The other thing I strongly disagree with is choosing Bete Noir. She is easily one of my favorite models in faction and I take her often. I also think she is one of the most nuanced and subtle models in faction, and IF they aren't playing living she loses about 1/3 of her value. I absolutely think she is a poor choice for a beginning player because she feels like a beatstick but she absolutely is not. 

What I think beginners need the most is a] raw power b] easy to understand models c] internal synergy and d] enough independence to work on their own.

Seamus

Shadows of Redchapel $45

Yin $11

Shikome $16

Hanged $16

Bishop $11

(80 ss + upgrades and cache)

This setup isn't 100% efficient for an experienced player, but will be great for beginners. Hanged and shikome are generally considered overpriced as minions, but have enough synergy with seamus and belles that they're still solid choices. They also "feel powerful", and other inexperienced opponents will really struggle to deal with them. Yin is one of the only truly tough models in the faction, and imo is actually the best model in faction. It isn't as simple as some other models, but it's going to be useful in every game, even when used poorly. After a few games, they'll figure it out and then it becomes horribly good. Bishop is a very solid beater under Seamus, again one of those models that won't be as common in tournament lists but will be a great intro to the game. Simple, powerful, synergy, independence. 

McM

Body of Evidence $45

Flesh Construct $16

Canine Remains $18

Yin Penangalan $11

(53 ss + upgrades and cache)

McM doesn't really need useful models; he's quite capable of winning the game more or less by himself if you can set it up right. Setting a new player up with plenty of summons is important; Canine remains -def aura makes everything McM does better, while making flesh constructs quite serviceable melee combatants. Flesh constructs are just all around great. Rafkin is a trap for new players. He seems super shiny but if you don't play him very well he just dies to a stiff breeze, and Sebastian is quite enough for transfusion. Nurses are better with McM than with Seamus (for a new player) because their best uses are more obvious (load up the fleshy and transfuse). Again, Yin is very powerful and very durable. Simple, powerful, synergy, independence. 

Yan Lo's Box $40

Emissary $40

Yin $11

Bishop $11

(53 ss + upgrades and cache)

Yan Lo is a very hard master to build with. First and foremost, I strongly disagree with encouraging new players to bring Izamu with Yan Lo. Ignoring armor is very common, and anything that does is going to make pathetically short work of Izamu, even with healing. Izamu can do great things, but often does not, and I think he's overpriced. 

Yan Lo 100% needs to take 3 models whose sole purpose is to die (at least that's my opinion), and while I'd prefer Gaki or Canine Remains, Ashigaru will do. The other thing I like to do with Yan Lo is play the "rule of 3" - take 3 important models that will win you the game and the rest of the list is disposable. Lightning dance enemies back into your lines to kill them with your Big 3, use your chi to give them armor and extra ap, or heal them etc etc, and let everything else die while cackling madly. 

The emissary just adds so much to the old man (ancestor synergy, +1 melee, wall, corpses, blasts, high min damage, extra summoning, and making it a spirit then using the 2 action to make spirits take a 1 gets high value from beatsticks), especially if you take spare parts, and I think that he's the single most important addition to Yan Lo. He makes it a lot easier to play Yan Lo in general. Yin is very self sufficient and very good at making things vulnerable to lightning dance, or Bishop. Bishop is a big beatstick, and between Bishop, Emissary, and Yan Lo, you should be able to kill anything. Yan Lo is also great at keeping Bishop safe with Lightning Dance. This particular budget buying guide definitely needs a mini-guide to go with it; Yan Lo is not a master who should be played by beginners, frankly. 

2 Ancestors is quite enough (realistically, I rarely am able to resurrect more than 1 per game). 

Not very simple, but powerful, synergy, independence. 

Finally, Tara. Another master who should probably not be played by beginners. 

I think her best "out of the gate" build is with belles: 

Herald of Obliteration $45

Shadows of Redchapel $45

Yin Penangalan $11

(58[? I forget how much karina costs... basically 53] ss + upgrades and cache)

Again, Yin is one of the only truly tanky Resser models. Belles make Tara's fast bubble pretty great, and lets her set up for the nothing beast bomb very well. Sybelle is an all around great and versatile henchman. Fleas are fine for scheme running. I don't think this list is as simple or independent as others, but if they're dead set on Tara it does have great synergies and it is powerful if you can play it right. This list really wants Bishop or Shikome to take advantage of -wp on fast doods. 

 

I think the biggest hurdle for new players is adapting to an entirely new framework, having %%%%ing ridiculous numbers of possible win conditions, and then trying to remember %#@$@##@@#! special rules. Ressers is the hardest faction to get into imo because we don't have the Howards, the Francois', the Perditas of Malifaux (in other words, simple models whose function is obvious and who warp the flow of the game by killing everything near them). Our game is (if you're on a budget ESPECIALLY) a much more subtle game generally, and I think it takes a long time to learn how to use movement tricks and status effects to make up for generally subpar damage and defense. 

 

Anyway, if any of this comes across as critical, be assured that I'm not angry or aggressive; rather, I have strong beliefs that have evolved over the last year of getting shut down by perdita, ramos (read as howard), rasputina, and lillith. I'm fine now, but holy @##$ it took a long time to learn how to play, and a lot of frustration that my models seemed categorically worse than every else. I started with Seamus and Yan Lo (had McM but really didn't play him), so that definitely upped the learning curve! 

 

My $.37, hope it helped!

 

Joshua

P.s. please, if you're going to include a guide to the things you have them buy, do all new players a favor and tell them not to use Karina. She's terrible almost all the time! 

[Kogan Style]

I'll come back with List builds later but I think that for a new player, you shouldn't include upgrades not available in the respective crew boxes as the only way to obtain them atm is through Wyrd's print on Demand service, adding to the costs.

[Myyrä]

4 minutes ago, Kogan Style said:

I'll come back with List builds later but I think that for a new player, you shouldn't include upgrades not available in the respective crew boxes as the only way to obtain them atm is through Wyrd's print on Demand service, adding to the costs.

You could also photocopy them from your friend's book.

[Khyodee]

8 hours ago, oryxwild said:

First off; Damage is fun. Yes, you have to run around and do stuff, summon, drop schemes, interact, etc etc. My experience with ressers has been that they are the least killy of the various factions, and that you will usually be outgunned, all your guys will die, and you will feel like you're losing even if you aren't. Since you're new and are probably bad, you probably are losing anyway. You either need to summon a lot of things to make up for generally subpar everything (barring movement and summoning, both of those are excellent), or you need to be able to control the board well enough to mitigate that offensive. The problem with option 1 is that not all masters summon well or easily; the problem with option 2 is that it's very difficult when learning the game to understand how to control the board. 

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point. Summoning masses of models often loses you the game because you get caught up in summoning and not playing to you strategies and schemes. I've played against Ressers quite a bit last year and I often had the opposite game you experience. I won many of the games against them, but by the end I had 2 models left and the Resser player had 10+ on the table. The other point I want to make, while yes it is aimed at newer players. It is also aimed at players switching factions and are experienced with the game. My point being that Tier 1 & 2 lists are ones I would actually play in a tournament environment, so I'm not focusing in building a crew that is easy for a new player to learn.

 

8 hours ago, oryxwild said:

The other thing I strongly disagree with is choosing Bete Noir. She is easily one of my favorite models in faction and I take her often. I also think she is one of the most nuanced and subtle models in faction, and IF they aren't playing living she loses about 1/3 of her value. I absolutely think she is a poor choice for a beginning player because she feels like a beatstick but she absolutely is not. 

I will give it to you that she does take some finesse to play, but the beauty of Bete is that she can't die so long as you hold back a card to just bury her again. So you can throw her into bad situations, but be ok with it.

 

8 hours ago, oryxwild said:

Seamus

Shadows of Redchapel $45

Yin $11

Shikome $16

Hanged $16

Bishop $11

(80 ss + upgrades and cache)

This setup isn't 100% efficient for an experienced player, but will be great for beginners. Hanged and shikome are generally considered overpriced as minions, but have enough synergy with seamus and belles that they're still solid choices. They also "feel powerful", and other inexperienced opponents will really struggle to deal with them. Yin is one of the only truly tough models in the faction, and imo is actually the best model in faction. It isn't as simple as some other models, but it's going to be useful in every game, even when used poorly. After a few games, they'll figure it out and then it becomes horribly good. Bishop is a very solid beater under Seamus, again one of those models that won't be as common in tournament lists but will be a great intro to the game. Simple, powerful, synergy, independence. 

This bundle looks fine, but I would drop Bishop at least (goal is to focus on building Resser pool). As a side note, Yin is a bit of a finesse model as well that will take a few games to learn how to use properly. She is tough vs a new player, but against a experienced/10T player that knows to focus she dies quite easily (trust me I play Jack Daw plenty who does the same thing).

 

8 hours ago, oryxwild said:

McM

Body of Evidence $45

Flesh Construct $16

Canine Remains $18

Yin Penangalan $11

(53 ss + upgrades and cache)

McM doesn't really need useful models; he's quite capable of winning the game more or less by himself if you can set it up right. Setting a new player up with plenty of summons is important; Canine remains -def aura makes everything McM does better, while making flesh constructs quite serviceable melee combatants. Flesh constructs are just all around great. Rafkin is a trap for new players. He seems super shiny but if you don't play him very well he just dies to a stiff breeze, and Sebastian is quite enough for transfusion. Nurses are better with McM than with Seamus (for a new player) because their best uses are more obvious (load up the fleshy and transfuse). Again, Yin is very powerful and very durable. Simple, powerful, synergy, independence. 

I actually had a similar list to this for McMourning before a more experienced Doug player suggested that I needed some board control models, otherwise it will die horribly to shooting. I've no problem adding this one to the list though.

 

8 hours ago, oryxwild said:

Yan Lo's Box $40

Emissary $40

Yin $11

Bishop $11

(53 ss + upgrades and cache)

Yan Lo is a very hard master to build with. First and foremost, I strongly disagree with encouraging new players to bring Izamu with Yan Lo. Ignoring armor is very common, and anything that does is going to make pathetically short work of Izamu, even with healing. Izamu can do great things, but often does not, and I think he's overpriced. 

Yan Lo 100% needs to take 3 models whose sole purpose is to die (at least that's my opinion), and while I'd prefer Gaki or Canine Remains, Ashigaru will do. The other thing I like to do with Yan Lo is play the "rule of 3" - take 3 important models that will win you the game and the rest of the list is disposable. Lightning dance enemies back into your lines to kill them with your Big 3, use your chi to give them armor and extra ap, or heal them etc etc, and let everything else die while cackling madly. 

The emissary just adds so much to the old man (ancestor synergy, +1 melee, wall, corpses, blasts, high min damage, extra summoning, and making it a spirit then using the 2 action to make spirits take a 1 gets high value from beatsticks), especially if you take spare parts, and I think that he's the single most important addition to Yan Lo. He makes it a lot easier to play Yan Lo in general. Yin is very self sufficient and very good at making things vulnerable to lightning dance, or Bishop. Bishop is a big beatstick, and between Bishop, Emissary, and Yan Lo, you should be able to kill anything. Yan Lo is also great at keeping Bishop safe with Lightning Dance. This particular budget buying guide definitely needs a mini-guide to go with it; Yan Lo is not a master who should be played by beginners, frankly. 

2 Ancestors is quite enough (realistically, I rarely am able to resurrect more than 1 per game). 

Not very simple, but powerful, synergy, independence. 

I'll admit Yan Lo is a master I know mostly through theory and not much table time. I would worry that the Emissary isn't officially out yet though, so I will probably hold off adding it until it is in stores.

 

8 hours ago, oryxwild said:

Finally, Tara. Another master who should probably not be played by beginners. 

I think her best "out of the gate" build is with belles: 

Herald of Obliteration $45

Shadows of Redchapel $45

Yin Penangalan $11

(58[? I forget how much karina costs... basically 53] ss + upgrades and cache)

Again, Yin is one of the only truly tanky Resser models. Belles make Tara's fast bubble pretty great, and lets her set up for the nothing beast bomb very well. Sybelle is an all around great and versatile henchman. Fleas are fine for scheme running. I don't think this list is as simple or independent as others, but if they're dead set on Tara it does have great synergies and it is powerful if you can play it right. This list really wants Bishop or Shikome to take advantage of -wp on fast doods. 

I agree Belles do let you utilize her fast pulsing (something I wish Outcast Tara had reliably). I will argue though Bete is way better then Yin here as she starts buried so you don't have to deal with and silly bury tricks. I disagree on Karina, if you have your cheap summoning options she easily pays for herself (typically I summon Crooligans, but Autopsies work in my bundle's case). That and she has a decent gun that you can use otherwise and I have killed things with it.

Thanks for the input, I know it can be hard to see this game from the perspective of a newer player for me at this point. Ultimately, you can always build better crews for your play style, but the point of the articles is to give people a place to start and then they can expand from there.
 

[D_acolyte]

I have thought about doing Yan Lo and taking him spirit focus, but I get where your coming from with your punk zombie focus.

master of path 40

izamu 16

shikome 16

drowned 21

total cost 93

not sure what to do for the last bit. I wish there was a box for Onryo on there own.

The list would be something like:

Yan Lo

Reliquary 1

Fortify The Spirit 1

Izamu 10

Shikome 8

Drowned 6

Drowned 6

Chiaki The Niece 6

Pull Of The Grave 1

Ashigaru 5

Soul Porter 3

That is 47 stones with his end catch is 7 and 7 models.

 

[oryxwild]

4 hours ago, Khyodee said:

a lot of stuff

Yeah, I get your drift on the experienced vs new player mentality, and I totally see what you're saying about Yin's theoretical survivability. Although in my estimation, almost nothing in this game is *actually* able to tank a real beater in the hands of an experienced player. I believe it is part of the game design that there are no unkillable models (riders probably come the closest, and they can definitely be killed if you know what you're about). 

I think it would make sense to make a distinction between new players and players switching factions. For an experienced player moving to ressers, mcm + seamus box + extras is probably the best start you can have. The experienced players already understand how to control the battlefield. But please also remember that this game is still growing, especially here in America. In the bay there's a fairly active community, but here in Sacramento I have only 1 regular opponent, and we can barely get enough interest to keep the store running tournaments. New players will inevitably find your article, since you have a well known podcast, and they probably won't realize that your advice isn't specific to them. Of course you'll find your own path, and I hope you take it upon yourself to use your power and influence to help people who are new to the game have the most fun experience they can. 

How much have you played with Bete? I don't actually consider her very survivable... I've played at least 20 games with her, and I often let her die because I don't have a 10 or because I need it for something else. Yes, def7 is wonderful... except that it's much better when you flip nicely or can afford to cheat consistently, and she's just not central enough to the crew for me to do that. Furthermore, there are a lot of ways to get around it (wp duels, unnerving auras, blasts, pandora, etc etc) and 4 wounds doesn't take you very far. I definitely would hesitate to recommend her, even to an experienced player. The people who like her style will see it right away and want to try her out (I think), and if you don't see it right away, she probably isnt' really your style. 

 

More of my $.37. Thanks for replying, and for taking the time to write the article!

[Gnomezilla]

Wait, we have two Yan Lo players in the greater 'this city sprawls out too much to be a cohesive metropolitan area' metropolitan area? I don't know whether you are part the of north Sac, east Sac, west Sac, south Sac, or 'so far south it's practically Stockton, but there's a stigma attached to saying that' Sac groups. I thought those players were rare.

[Khyodee]

10 hours ago, oryxwild said:

New players will inevitably find your article, since you have a well known podcast, and they probably won't realize that your advice isn't specific to them. Of course you'll find your own path, and I hope you take it upon yourself to use your power and influence to help people who are new to the game have the most fun experience they can.

Well the articles are meant to be a mix for both new and old players, so I understand your desire to have a less complex crew for new folks. I'm a bit torn on taking a simpler list (with less core models) vs a more complex list (with more core models) to recommend. I think the problem is where the new player falls on the skill level chart from the get go. Many players that have wargaming/board gaming experience seem to catch on after a few games (which I'm just lending models) and they start to at least grasp some of the more complicated interaction. I do know some player are a bit slower to piece it all together, but to be honest I would probably direct them to a more straight forward faction (unless they really loved the Resser ascetics). 

 

10 hours ago, oryxwild said:

How much have you played with Bete? I don't actually consider her very survivable... I've played at least 20 games with her, and I often let her die because I don't have a 10 or because I need it for something else. Yes, def7 is wonderful... except that it's much better when you flip nicely or can afford to cheat consistently, and she's just not central enough to the crew for me to do that. Furthermore, there are a lot of ways to get around it (wp duels, unnerving auras, blasts, pandora, etc etc) and 4 wounds doesn't take you very far. I definitely would hesitate to recommend her, even to an experienced player. The people who like her style will see it right away and want to try her out (I think), and if you don't see it right away, she probably isnt' really your style.

I've not played many games as Ressers, so most my experience is from the other side of the board. My regular opponents that played her, used her off and on, but she seemed to stick around most games because they "sandbagged" a 10 in their hand to keep her alive.

[oryxwild]

After reading your reply, I really do agree with the core models vs simpler, less core models, and ultimately I strongly agree that ressers is not a good place to start. I think what I believe more than all the rest of it is; if you're determined to start ressers, start with Nicodem or McMourning as one of your primary masters. Everything is better that way. Even without so many models, Nicodem's raw power will carry you far, and he's a very serviceable support master. 

I came here from blood bowl, and that is a game that I have mastered with over 1300 games played. I'm far from the best but I have certainly put the time in and I'm a very competent player. I've also played some warhammer, and many of the smaller skirmish games. I've played lots of D&D and other complex pen and paper games. I am a little slow to learn sometimes, so that could be a factor, but I found Ressers to be a pretty steep learning curve. Of course I learned how to kill things turn1 with Seamus and snowball the game from there, and even from the beginning VP weren't so foreign to me (after all, Blood bowl is another game you can win with 0 healthy players, and I primarily play pro elves). Nonetheless, ressers is a tricky faction to get a handle on (oh, and did I mention that I played only Seamus and Yan Lo? I'm sure it would have been easier with McM or Nicodem...) 

As far as Bete goes, I'll sandbag a 10 all day... And yet, at the end of the turn, that 10 might be what I need to save x model, gain x VP, or do 1 2 3 things. Moreover, if they're savvy and kill her twice in two turns or twice in one turn, I often don't have a second 10. Perhaps I just haven't learned to use her to her best yet (and as I mentioned, she's one of my favorite models and I take her often). 

As far as Yan Lo goes, I think I have maybe 20 games under my belt, so I'm not super experienced. I have gotten a good handle on him and have begun winning with him, or at least coming close, much more often of late. He's a very interesting master - full of powerful options, and it's just so hard to use him to the fullest! I may be wrong about the Izamu-hate, but the more I play with Izamu the more I realize that he's not the tanky beater he appears to be. There are a lot of things in the game that ignore armor, and they're popular choices for obvious reasons. I did like one strategy a lot - I saw a blog by someone who used him for Frame for Murder bait and then resummoned on turn 4. Nice plan! 

[Khyodee]

Actually, I think there could be another tier 1 list coming out soon in Reva. She is actually a simple master to get the hang of (it will always take time/skill to master) and she doesn't need tons of models to summon like the other masters.

[Kadeton]

I think Reva will be a great starting point for new Resser players.

[D_acolyte]

Just looking at her box and what could help her with out knowing much, I would go Reva and Molly to form Reva crew for 95, 50 for Reva and 45 for Molly.

The logic is thus:

Shieldbearers care a big sword and shield so I expect them to be defensive combat models, may be armor or what they do with shield in TTB which is to give a bonus to defensive actions.

Vincent looks like range support as he has a crossbow.

Crooligans are good scheme runners or can die with in 18 of Reva to make corpses.

Philip can turn enemy scheme markers into corpses for Reva to use.

The rest comes down to points, so we will have to wait about a week.

Alternativly I could see almost any other master box working well, except Kirai and Tara. Bells to bring people into your kill zone, nurses to do condition, punk zombies/ashigaru if the shieldbearers are not damaging (like the guardian is not damaging), Mortimer to make corpses though it is in base with him. Also buy individual boxes could do well. This is the problem with theory crafting around simple and new masters when we are missing some of the rules.

[oryxwild]

21 hours ago, Gnomezilla said:

Wait, we have two Yan Lo players in the greater 'this city sprawls out too much to be a cohesive metropolitan area' metropolitan area? I don't know whether you are part the of north Sac, east Sac, west Sac, south Sac, or 'so far south it's practically Stockton, but there's a stigma attached to saying that' Sac groups. I thought those players were rare.

Wait, we have another regular player in the Sacramento Area? Do you play at GeG? I haven't seen a single Yan Lo player around... Anyway I'm near midtown. 

[Gnomezilla]

31 minutes ago, oryxwild said:

Wait, we have another regular player in the Sacramento Area? Do you play at GeG? I haven't seen a single Yan Lo player around... Anyway I'm near midtown. 

Drama unrelated to Malifaux has interfered with me going up to Great Escape, though I knew the invite was there and made in good faith.

Other Yan Lo has something like an hour's drive to go up there, though, so it could definitely be worse.

I'm playing when the Sacramento Miniature Wargaming Society meets at the library up in Carmichael, monthly. It's shocking how many kids detour and drag parents after them to see what these grown-ups are doing with what look like toys, so we do have to constantly watch our language (rotten belle jokes have to be saved for other days) but it's been great for spreading the idea of minis gaming to people who would never, ever step inside a FLGS.