Zipp !! Ideas?

[Manic Mouse]

Except Zipp can remove conditions... Both his limited upgrades give him the ability to do so...

 

EDIT:  I don't want to drag the thread down with arguments so I will leave it there.  I personally have no issue with Zapp being insignificant.  We shall see what happens when he's being played, but I am confident his crew will be strong and he will be more than capable of winning games.

[Blacks85]

13 minutes ago, Manic Mouse said:

Except Zipp can remove conditions... Both his limited upgrades give him the ability to do so...

 

EDIT:  I don't want to drag the thread down with arguments so I will leave it there.  I personally have no issue with Zapp being insignificant.  We shall see what happens when he's being played, but I am confident his crew will be strong and he will be more than capable of winning games.

BOTH the conditions of the schemes CANT BE REMOVED by any ability or action

 

[Manic Mouse]

Just now, Blacks85 said:

BOTH the conditions of the scehems CANT BE REMOVED by any ability or action

 

Well we will see.  He will certainly be an interesting failure if he doesn't work...

[Ryin]

It can also be very hard to get to Zipp in the first place. I personally think the gem of his card is going to be his Noxious Smoke. He's going to be such a pain in the ass to TRY and scheme condition, the opponent will have to exert too much effort to be worth it.

[Justin]

20 minutes ago, Blacks85 said:

BOTH the conditions of the schemes CANT BE REMOVED by any ability or action

 

Incorrect.

Rulebook Scheme Conditions may be removed by Abilities.

The Conditions granted by GG2016 Schemes don't require Interacts at all to remove so Insignificant is irrelevant. 

[Manic Mouse]

40 minutes ago, Ryin said:

It can also be very hard to get to Zipp in the first place. I personally think the gem of his card is going to be his Noxious Smoke. He's going to be such a pain in the ass to TRY and scheme condition, the opponent will have to exert too much effort to be worth it.

Agreed, it is by far the most powerful ability on his card.

And TY Justin.  Is it in the rules that we say "zaaaaaaaaaaaap" every time we declare an attack with the Zipp Zapper?  I think reading them as intended it is.

[tomjoad]

32 minutes ago, Justin said:

Incorrect.

Rulebook Scheme Conditions may be removed by Abilities.

The Conditions granted by GG2016 Schemes don't require Interacts at all to remove so Insignificant is irrelevant. 

I feel like this can never be repeated enough, apparently.

[Omenbringer]

46 minutes ago, Manic Mouse said:

No there isn't, and for a long time no master other than Seamus had Df 4.  Did that make seamus bad?  Again, seamus had ways to offset his weakness. So does Zipp.  Zipp having a weakness no other master has doesn't instantly make him bad.  Yes other masters are mobile, none that can move 24" ignoring terrain in a turn that I can think of.

When it comes to "essential" upgrades I think of it more like Wyrd giving themselves a bit of leeway with model design and what they can fit on the card.  Case in point - would you rather have had them build condition removal into his card by removing another ability, lower his cache and made the upgrades it was previously on on cheaper?  6 of one, half a dozen of another because you would have had to remove one of his other "essential" abilities on the card to make room for it - so it doesn't make much of a difference.

It seems you have an emotional and existential dislike of "essential" upgrades.  But I would rather masters like the Dreamer exist in the game that need those upgrades, than remove those masters for the sake of some nebulous principle.  "Essential" upgrades on masters don't make the game any worse, and it wouldn't be better without them.  The whole idea of limited upgrades were that they were so good you could only have one, very few masters can be played optimally without one of their limited upgrades so I don't know why Zipp would be any different.

This is off topic but, Seamus was not the only Master that was Df 4, Sonnia, Nicodem, and Rasputina (all from the same book were Df 4) while Pandora was Df 3. Yes that low Df is a huge vulnerability and is often complained about, particularly in regards to an increasing number of models that have Ml, Ca, or Sh of 6.

In regards to long movments that are also not heavily limtied by Terrain well Kaeris has Flight and can move 18" (24" if she decides to take a Student of Conflict to gain Fast), Lilith ignores Severe terrain and can move 18" (again the Student of COnflict can augment this), Zoraida with her Upgrade can cover 20" regardless of terrain (albeit she can't use Interact Actions after using Raven Form for the rest of the turn, but she can use them before she uses Raven Form). The Dreamer is Incorporeal and can cover 21" on his own. Lucas McCabe can also cover 21" on his own and can easily gain Unimpeded. Seamus can cover 30" of the table as long as he has 3 cards that are 7+ in his control hand and is out of LOS (though again he can't take Interact Actions for the rest of that activation). And finally there are also Masters like Ulix and C. Hoffman who gain free movement when one of their characteristic models (pigs or Constructs respectively) preforms a Walk Action within 3" of them, and they can still use 2 of their own Actions to Walk further. Both of these can also hitch a ride with models that either have or can gain Flight (Watcher or Pigs). All of these highly mobile Masters are Significant. Both Ulix and Hoffman can easily cover 24" in a turn ignoring terrain and still have an action to spend on dropping a Scheme Marker. In short their are plenty of master models that can cover a lot of ground and still are Significant. There are also plenty of non-master models that are also highly mobile and Significant. And of course the Student of Conflict can aid these movements further by granting Fast.

And yes I would have rather had the condition removal on his card than on an upgrade. I would be curious to see which of his abilities you consider essential to him, the only one I can think of for his design is Flight and perhaps his Df/ Wp Trigger, though with that high Df and Wp value isn't as much of a need honestly.

Keep in mind this is not emotional investment, more that "Upgrades" should be enhancements or augmentations to a models core not the models core. I understand why Wyrd adopted them and was part of the process to integrate them. Many have been done well in this regard but not all were. As I said earlier though I am reserving judgment until I see the entire crew box, upgrades and all. Given that his Iron Mosquitoes are supposed to gain a benefit from his upgrades it is likely much less of an issue since he will want to attach 3 any way.

At any rate I am unlikely to alter your opinion and you wont alter mine so have reached the culmination point where further discussion is pointless.

[Omenbringer]

1 hour ago, Ryin said:

It can also be very hard to get to Zipp in the first place. I personally think the gem of his card is going to be his Noxious Smoke. He's going to be such a pain in the ass to TRY and scheme condition, the opponent will have to exert too much effort to be worth it.

I agree with this Noxious Smoke is a wonderful action.

[zeeblee]

I think the upgrade design mostly holds to "required" upgrades being Limited, and thus one of a few play style options for the master. Dreamer shows off this design by either becoming a beater or a summoner.

Now, I don't think every master falls into this philosophy, but my guess is that was the original intention. For Zipp it sounds like both give him condition removal in addition to one other thing. We'll just have to see how much his options offer him different play styles.

I think him being Insignificant is a powerful disadvantage, but it also pushes you to use him for heavy disruption since he can't scheme. Sort of like how non-killy masters have to rely on their crews for damage output. His disruption looks to be rather amazing in how he can precision target via his speed and large-impact markers and attacks.

[Dumb Luck]

Daily reminder that the Noxious Smoke markers count as impassible terrain for Mancha to Rebound off.

[Ryin]

I also love that even in Malifaux the ground is a +5 weapon. Everything about Zip makes me chuckle. Even more so than the faction in general.

[Manic Mouse]

11 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

Keep in mind this is not emotional investment, more that "Upgrades" should be enhancements or augmentations to a models core not the models core.

Why? This is why I see it as an emotional argument - there needs to be a *reason* why that should be the case, why it would make the game any better.  You say that upgrades should only be enhancements, again why?  Why is it wrong to have masters that work optimally with their limited upgrades?  Why is it wrong that some masters have mechanics that work around their upgrades?

What if I were to say that "scheme" markers should be used for completing schemes, and there should not be models that use them for other things because I, personally, don't like that idea?  Artificially limiting the game and design space for arbitrary reasons confers no benefit to the game.

For some masters upgrades aren't essential, for some they are. This is taken into account in power level, cache and the nature of the upgrades (cost, being limited etc).  However purposely limiting your design philosophy without good reason and eliminating the (great) masters from the game that need upgrades doesn't make much sense to me.  Removing masters like Daw, McCabe, Yan Lo, Ophelia or Dreamer that need upgrades to function from the game wouldn't make the game any better, it would actually make the game worse.  There is nothing inherently wrong with upgrade orientated masters.  If you personally don't like it for whatever reason there are masters that you can play without it rather than feeling those masters that need upgrades not exist or be altered to suit your personal (and subjective) taste.  If your argument is that it makes the game more complicated - there are masters that are simpler and work with their "core" card if you want that, without denying more intricate masters to those who enjoy them.

The reality is that some designs like Daw, Yan Lo, McCabe or Dreamer will not fit onto the "core" card and thus need upgrades to work at all.  If there was an arbitrary "master must be 100% effective and mechanically complete without a single upgrade" rule then many, many great masters wouldn't exist or would have severely compromised and inferior designs.  This means there would have to be a pretty great reason for this arbitrary rule that massively compromises the game as we know it, beyond personal taste.

EDIT:  We shall see where Zipp falls, but I predict he will be a very competitive master.  Despite his insignificant and required upgrades.  So long as he is not under or over powered he is fine.

[Blacks85]

14 hours ago, Justin said:

Incorrect.

Rulebook Scheme Conditions may be removed by Abilities.

The Conditions granted by GG2016 Schemes don't require Interacts at all to remove so Insignificant is irrelevant. 

Those conditions can't be removed by Ability, as it states the condition itself (both of them).

But we were in mistake, you don't need interact to remove it with action. I was sure the "Action" to remove condition was interact action 

[Math Mathonwy]

22 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

Keep in mind this is not emotional investment, more that "Upgrades" should be enhancements or augmentations to a models core not the models core.

I believe that, e.g., Marcus is an example where you theoretically could play him without either of his Limited Upgrades but I doubt anyone would do so outside of a demo game or something. Similarly Seamus, Pandora, Wong, and so on, without either of their Limited Upgrades seem like very non-optimal choices.

I'm not saying that Zipp will be similar but just pointing out that there are Masters who have different playstyles that you can choose between through Upgrades and leaving them out altogether is often a sub-optimal choice to say the least. I think that this is a very cool mechanic but I can understand the opinion that it isn't.

[Math Mathonwy]

11 hours ago, Blacks85 said:

Those conditions can't be removed by Ability, as it states the condition itself (both of them).

But we were in mistake, you don't need interact to remove it with action. I was sure the "Action" to remove condition was interact action 

Rulebook Scheme Conditions can't be removed by Actions, but they can be removed by Abilities. See also Scion of Black Blood removing the Waking Condition from the Dreamer for a similar rules "loophole". GG2016 Conditions can't be removed by other Actions nor by Abilities.

[Kobayashi]

Going by the Basic Schemes I like to think thatif he could do any interact actions, he would be too powerful for some of that stuff and thus gained insignificant. I mean, I have the feeling, if played correctly he can be anywhere at any turn.

[Ryin]

I think he's preeeetty powerful WITH Insignificant. Without it, he'd be just stupid.

[Kobayashi]

24 minutes ago, Ryin said:

I think he's preeeetty powerful WITH Insignificant. Without it, he'd be just stupid.

Can you elaborate more, so I can learn (your POV) more

[Ryin]

Setting aside his ability to eliminate models charges and 0 actions from 8" away, which is ridiculous, and his ability to block charging lanes / place blocking markers every turn, which is something that comes on other masters UPGRADES, Zipp's movement shenanigans alone are absurd. 

He can get a melee beater into position to charge something on turn 1 before it activates for what amounts to a zero action.

and I have not mentioned his his survivability, his scheme harassment or his upgrades.

insignificant hurts him more because he cannot remove scheme markers. Merris alone can complete most marker schemes by herself. 

Insignificant is sort of doing people a favor so they DONT just use him as a glorified scheme runner. 

[Blacks85]

I don't really agree with this

1 hour ago, Ryin said:

Setting aside his ability to eliminate models charges and 0 actions from 8" away, which is ridiculous, and his ability to block charging lanes / place blocking markers every turn, which is something that comes on other masters UPGRADES, Zipp's movement shenanigans alone are absurd. 

He's insgnificant with almost no DMG output...he has to have something

The ability is similar to Sammy's one, not exagerate imo and the other master capable of placing terrain are much better because they don't have to put markers into base contact...which limits so much the blocking capabilities.

 

1 hour ago, Ryin said:

He can get a melee beater into position to charge something on turn 1 before it activates for what amounts to a zero action.

The (0) action push is nice but it's worst than mah-tucket push (because opponent may push 2" afterwards blocking your charge line) or of the Ophelia place in 8"...so still below other master!

And if you were thinking about "Up we go", Move, "Up we go", Push...this would do 4 dmg to a model that won't probably last longer

Speaking of mobility....surely he has no rivals

But we have to see if you can get something out of it!

[Kobayashi]

33 minutes ago, Blacks85 said:

with almost no DMG output

We currently know of. There is a piano upgrade! A PIANO UPGRADE!

[Adran]

2 hours ago, Blacks85 said:

I don't really agree with this

He's insgnificant with almost no DMG output...he has to have something

You are hard to please. a 2/4/5 attack in which he is going to have a higher stat than 95% of the models in the game is a pretty good attack. Especially since it will ignore defensive triggers. He also has a ranged attack thats 2/3/4 with a built in trigger to minimise enemy movement on everything it hits, not just the target. 

 

Yes. his noxious smoke markers must be in base contact with him. But one thing that has improved with these over Ice pillars is that they can go places the Ice pillars can't. You can physically trap a model with these as they can be placed within a inch of terrain, or the enemy model (just not base contact). It might not sound like much, and he does have to move to get into the right place, but it makes it much easier to physically trap enemy models.

Now if only he had some way to get enemy models into the right place, and so effectively paralyse them...

[papasmrf667]

On ‎7‎/‎22‎/‎2016 at 8:10 AM, Reagusmage said:

Problem with magnetizing bases is a lot of people like using resin bases, which don't have space under the base to fit a magnet of some sorts.... I wouldn't wanna have to carve out the bottom of several resin bases, jeesh

When adding magnets to models for pinning/multi weapon purposes I use little tiny rare earth magnets. You can drill slightly into the model and just drop the disk magnet in there.



But Zipp reminds me of Mohsar from Hordes creating salt pillars every turn. His Noxious Smoke will be a pain to deal with every turn. Whether it's blocking LoS to friends or enemies. Having Up we Go on top of it as well as all the triggers that move models off course is just too good.

I'm very excited to dig into this guy.

[Sketch201]

I'm just wondering if he will come with an upgrade for the Lucky Emissary in his box.