Conversion-culture lacking a little?

[TheTrans]

Hey gang,

Was talking to my local hench the other day about how RatJoy wasn't a huge issue the models weren't released..even though the rules have been out for a while. I started along the lines of 'well thats silly as one could convert..." is where he cut me off and sort of said people aren't as into converting as I am..and in general in Malifaux(and Infinity), people aren't as conversion crazy as your more 'classical' hobbists.

 

Coming from a 40k and Fantasy background, where back in the day GW loved to push conversion ideas and thinking outside of the box and everything, and in a fair few tournaments that I attended there was always a large portion of overall score put toward your hobby and softscores (Sportsmanship, Hobby (painting, conversions, freehand work etc)).

 

If you also looked back into the golden age of White Dwarf there were always large amounts of bibs and bobs showing off cool armies, conversions etc which (as a younger modeller then) always sort of gave you something to strive for. As an aside I reckon it would be amazing (and surely not too much work) for Wyrd to maybe have a model showcase each month stuffed into the back of the Wyrd Chronicles, as besides that, they've almost got all the boxes ticked from the 'golden-era' White Dwarf check list.

Cruising the forums over here (and vulturing around AWP) I've seen some of the truly most stunning paint jobs known to man..but I've noticed (when compared to say a 40k or Fantasy hobby forum) the amount of conversions and showing off of odd ideas etc are quite minimal. The conversions that are out there are quite bloody brilliant, it's just that there isn't a huge amount of them (by comparison).

So my question, and discussion point I suppose, is two-fold:

1. Why isn't converting as big in Malifaux (and 'younger' wargames) as it was in others?

2. Why does the Gaining Grounds pack not reward 'extra' effort for hobby scores as well as sports scores (saying in the pack 'don't be a dick' doesn't really cut it haha..)

Discuss and flame away gang!!

[Myyrä]

One thing I can think off is that Malifaux minis are more difficult to convert than GW minis used to be. Every space marine's arms could easily be replaced with arms from another space marine and boxes came with lots of extra parts. (And they might still for all I know.) Malifaux minis don't really support mixing and matching pieces, because the connection points are all different and in different parts of arms and so on, and there really aren't any extra pieces that you could attach to other other models either. All that doesn't really stop me from doing some amount of converting, but I usually like the minis enough as they are, and don't want to make any big changes. The biggest conversions I have made for Malifaux are proxy models built from TTB multipiece boxes (and other bits and GS obviously).

As for your second question, I think the tournament rules absolutely should not mention rewarding extra effort for hobby aspects. The tournament organizer is, of course, free to do so if he wishes, and I believe many do, but it isn't something that should be forced upon them.

[Bengt]

In 40k you often field loads of any single type of miniature and a lot of the models are also modular. The first one gives you an incentive to personalise some of your models and the second you gives you are soft start.

In Malifaux (and to some degree Infinity) you rarely field more models of a given type than there are sculpts, so there is less incentive. And most models are not even remotely modular and often come in action poses, requiring a higher skill level to convert them without making them look terrible.

[solkan]

I think part of it's also one of those "making a virtue out of a necessity" elements as far as 40k goes--from the early days of the game in order to represent that a model had various pieces of equipment it would be necessary to build your own components.  But the arrangement of equipment on a particular model was relatively static.  "This is my hero with missile launcher, targeter, and rebreather" sort of thing.  But there was that impulse that you'd modify the figure to make it more faithfully represent the entry in your list.  This is the "Modular Equipment Motive", and it's sort of characteristic of one type of game as the customization mechanism.

There's a certain amount of that for Infinity, since there are more profile options than there are models, and Corvus Belli doesn't really produce modular options.  On the forums there, you can look at the conversion thread to see that there's enough of the Modular Equipment Motive for people to post weapon swaps or figure reposing.  Needing to remind people that "This X is a Y with option Z" is a strong enough motive that they have mandatory courtesy lists at tournaments, even, so the Module Equipment Motive is strong.

(Note that games with a "Module Equipment Motive" also tend to be games with fixed lists, so that you end up deciding and committing to your equipment options far enough in advance that you can modify your models to visually represent the equipment choices.)

I don't think 1st edition Malifaux had any model based options, so any alterations someone would make to a model would be purely for artistic reason.  And the problem with alterations for "artistic reasons" is that you end up with a model for something that doesn't look like anyone else's version of that thing.  While it's cool and awesome to have a unique looking figure, it also creates an opportunity for confusion without the "Modular Equipment Motive" to offset that potential for confusion.
Malifaux's actually got a negative version of the "Modular Equipment Motive" because the game is structured so that you're choosing the customizable options for your models in the middle of the game.  So even if you wanted to collect and modify your models to represent their equipment options, you can't know which options you're going to want to use until you've started playing.  (You have to bring enough models to a tournament as it is, imagine bringing a dozen times that amount to represent equipment options.)  That's aside from the fact that many of the upgrade options really don't have a specific visual representation. 

I think that's why Gaining Grounds recognizes and allows for the desire that some people have to create or modify their figures, but doesn't push people towards doing it:

- It's not practical to visually represent upgrades on models

- Lists aren't fixed concerning the choices for model upgrades until after the game starts

- Modified models and custom models have to overcome the concern of being possibly confusing

 

[Munindk]

1 hour ago, TheTrans said:

Was talking to my local hench the other day about how RatJoy wasn't a huge issue the models weren't released..even though the rules have been out for a while. I started along the lines of 'well thats silly as one could convert..." is where he cut me off and sort of said people aren't as into converting as I am..and in general in Malifaux(and Infinity), people aren't as conversion crazy as your more 'classical' hobbists.

So my question, and discussion point I suppose, is two-fold:

1. Why isn't converting as big in Malifaux (and 'younger' wargames) as it was in others?

2. Why does the Gaining Grounds pack not reward 'extra' effort for hobby scores as well as sports scores (saying in the pack 'don't be a dick' doesn't really cut it haha..)
 

As far as I can see, all of the RatJoy models have been released or do you need Winged Plagues too?

1. I think there are several reasons.

A. In Malifaux lots of models represent unique characters, in GW games there are very few special characteers.
B. The lack of modular kits doesnt help, very few Malifaux kits could be kitbashed without huge amounts of greenstuff.
C. The lower model count, and the fact that Wyrd is good about releasing multiple sculpts for all minions (if there's a rare x, the minion box will generally contain x models), means that there's less need for conversion. Apart from a few summoners (Ramos, Somer, Ulix and McMourning maybe?) you'll rarely have to field identical sculpts.
D. This is sort of related to A, but each models card has a picture of thats fairly accurate and conversions can get confusing in a tournament setting.
E. Wyrd promotes and sponsors tournaments and community activities, in return for that support I think its fair if they prefer that people use their models.

Conversion are still being made. I generally lump them into 3 categories: Minor adjustments like a headswap, a new weapon or similar. Models that havent been released yet, lots of people have proxies or conversions for models from Crossroads and Shifting Loyalties, some continue to use their proxy after the model has been released. Resculpts, a few people on the forums with crazy modeling skills redo complete crews, like the Day of the Dead Perdita crew here: http://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/114463-dia-de-los-muertos-the-ortegas-co/?page=1

 

[Rathnard]

Okay so first off, the models you need for the infamous (and now defunct) ratjoy list are Killjoy, Rats, an Obedient Wretch, a Rat King and the Rat Catcher. Possibly also Ashes & Dust and the Viks/Levi. All of those have been out for some time now. Ashes and Dust was the most recent to come out (within the first few months of this year?), so at least model-wise, there's been nothing stopping people from taking the Ratjoy list.

4 hours ago, TheTrans said:

1. Why isn't converting as big in Malifaux (and 'younger' wargames) as it was in others?

2. Why does the Gaining Grounds pack not reward 'extra' effort for hobby scores as well as sports scores (saying in the pack 'don't be a dick' doesn't really cut it haha..)

Back when 40k and Fantasy were the only games in town, the concept of "WYSIWYG" (What You See Is What You Get) was a big deal. It was commonly accepted that the models in your army needed to be carrying the weapons/equipment they had on the army list. So your space marines with heavy bolters couldn't pretend to be carrying Lascannons instead. With the amount of wargear available and the size of armies, WYSIWYG was a necessity - your opponent was just not going to remember who was carrying what if the models were not equipped accordingly. 

The more recent games like Warmachine and Malifaux offered far fewer options for customising individual models. In Warmachine it's simply not available, and Upgrades only became a thing for Malifaux in 2nd Edition, about 3 years ago. And even then, the upgrades are rarely physical items you might be compelled to model. Also the model count in Malifaux is small enough for players not to get confused as to who has what upgrade. 

As for using proxies to convert unreleased models, I think that's been a consistently rare phenomenon across all of tabletop wargaming. They're more common in games where conversions are already encouraged (eg. GW games) or when it involved something really simple like a weapon swap (Infinity).

 

Personally, I do alot of converting. I've made Wyrd-legal proxies for almost every model available to 10-T in Shifting Loyalties. I have fully proxied/converted crews for Sonnia, McCabe, McMourning (twice), Dreamer, Jack Daw and Von Schill, and partly converted crews for Lady Justice, Tara, Molly, Yan Lo, Kaeris, Colette, Mei Feng, Pandora, Zoraida, Hamelin and Misaki. One third of my Infinity PanOceana army is converted (none of which are weapon swaps, oddly) and most of the models in my old Space Marine and Chaos armies are converted in some way. 

Basically, I love converting models. It's a large part of what I enjoy about the game.

And for what it's worth, it's not that hard to convert Malifaux models. The fact that they're plastic helps alot. You just some imagination, ambition and a bit of greenstuff to fill gaps (I'm no good at sculpting).

 

As for Gaining Grounds not encouraging conversions, I assume that's because it was conceived as a document for playing purely competitive events. That's not to say you can't introduce categories for "soft scores" (eg. painting, sportsmanship, luck...even crew composition??). But there's a huge variety of ways in which you could implement such things, none of which are any more right than the others and all of which are beyond what is required for the Gaining Grounds document. 

[Squirrelich]

A lot of this may be repeats of above, but...
- no need, I don't have to field 50 of the same guys and so some part of me doesn't need to convert/kit bash to make them all unique. I just need to buy one box and have all the unique and accurately equipped guys I need for a given model.
- Harder. I've only had a few conversions given up on or changed to something simpler because Wyrd models are harder to convert due to smaller surface areas, but it has happened.
- Not sure how to put this, but fluff need? When I did my Beastmen army I removed every single Chaos symbol on every model as well as most of the skulls, because it did not fit with my head fluff of my army (plus the skulls were stupid). I also converted all boars type models to using wolves because I thought they were cooler. With the exception of converting to put more clothes on some of the female models, I don't often feel the fluff need to change my guys to make them match my head canon, fit in the rest of my crew or make cooler. The only things I can think of is adding smoke from small arachnid smoke stacks (for coolness factor) and making the December acolytes more Western-y and less frozen heart (to fit in with all of my M&SU better).

[G. Footman]

That always bugged me a little, lack of conversions, I love conversions, but outside of WH40k/FB I don't see alot

[G. Footman]

On 7/14/2016 at 7:35 AM, 7thSquirrel said:

- Harder. I've only had a few conversions given up on or changed to something simpler because Wyrd models are harder to convert due to smaller surface areas, but it has happened.
 

I've had to do some conversions simply to cover up problems assembling wyrd models (like the smaller surface areas)

[EnternalVoid]

I have done a few conversions and got a few others in the pipeline.  Most of the ones I have done have been minor.  I ended up with 6 of the plastic witchling Stalkers and I was not going to have them repeat the pose so 3 of them got minor adjustments on how they were holding their swords to give variation.  The original Tara I converted her hands positions because I did not like the pose.  Same with the Scion of Black Blood as I did not like how he either *he got his arms adjusted and his head leveled so he was looking forward*.  My Mobile toolkit got hits arms adjusted as did not like how they looked.  McCabe also got an adjustment as I wanted him to have Saber and Netgun mounted and Whip and Saber dismounted *IE his actual weapons*.

I also adjusted a few of my bayou gremlins on things I did not like.  For example the one that is holding his fists up for a brawl got his shoe put on rather than being flung off.  Toshiro got a very minor modification as I did not like the whole pole sticking through him as anyone with sense would have removed that from him.  Same with the arrows from Izamu.

Mei Feng I ditched the weird wood thing and had her posing balanced on a rail.  I also did away with her silly hair and gave her Kang's hat.  Then for Miss step I carved her head up a bit and fit Mei Feng's hair on her... this is what happens when you cross Ramos Silly spy.

One of the projects I have started is taking a belle and some other parts and trying to make my own Valedictorian, so more what I would picture Seamus getting McMourning to help him build.  This is a slow one as I want to gather up some more parts from other sets as I want to make as much of it out of Wyrd parts as possible.

Most have been minor due to the reasons listed; where parts come together, lack of spare parts to use, feeling less of a need to convert, and perhaps most of all for me in that my sculpting skills are weak.  If you are a good sculptor it opens a lot more doors into different things you can do with models.  But just to be clear, I love converting and getting those special touches... and also removing perhaps those elements that I dislike about a model.

[maddan12]

I'm planning a few alternative models from the multipart kits, but I need to take some time to think about who I want to make

 

[kgn01]

I personally like to convert my models to create a theme throughout my miniature armies (Warhammer, malifaux, etc). I would like to know however if it is allowed to reproduce small parts such as shoulder plates from the Ten Thunder Samurais to put on other miniatures? Creating a mold for a single bit would be a lot more time efficient then having to sculpt similar shoulders from scratch for each model. There are few sites that sell Malifaux bits unfortunately, that sort of makes converting harder than other older wargames.

[solkan]

6 minutes ago, kgn01 said:

I personally like to convert my models to create a theme throughout my miniature armies (Warhammer, malifaux, etc). I would like to know however if it is allowed to reproduce small parts such as shoulder plates from the Ten Thunder Samurais to put on other miniatures? Creating a mold for a single bit would be a lot more time efficient then having to sculpt similar shoulders from scratch for each model. There are few sites that sell Malifaux bits unfortunately, that sort of makes converting harder than other older wargames.

You're going to need to define the scope of your question for "allowed".

Making a mold of someone else's part is direct copying, and this is your first post.  Take the extra few hours to sculpt your own parts.

[tmod]

Depends on how, what and why. If you copy a detail for a conversion of another Wyrd model for personal use, I don't think you'll get into any trouble. If you produce parts for sale I can almost guarantee you'll get into trouble. Anything inbetween is a grey area...

[Pierowmaniac]

No Ned for conversions when the models are so dynamic anyway ?