Is the Brutal Emissary's auto-decapitate too brutal?

[Brassfist]

So what's everyone's feeling on the Brutal Emissary getting Howard Langston's attack with auto-decapitate? Was it a mistake by Wyrd, and should it be fixed? 

For those not in the know: "Conflux of Amalgamation" makes the Emissary a construct, Hoffman gives the "Targeting Systems" modification to the Emissary, machine puppets the Emissary to bury Howard > the Emissary activates and removes the modification to add a ram to every Ml/Sh, getting Howard's attack with the decapitate trigger built-in.

From what i hear, "Targeting Systems" was worded so that it can only be attached to Guild constructs to prevent Howard getting auto-decapitate.

So was this missed in testing, or is it OK because of the resources you need to spend to make it happen (1 AP burying and maybe 2 wounds on the Emissary to make it Fast)?

I want to be fair to my opponents, but i also want to decapitate them.

[Brassfist]

Maybe shouldn't have asked in the non-Guild forum! Nobody cares about me auto decapitating Ressers 

[admiralvorkraft]

To explain my position; it bothers me, less because of what it actually accomplishes in-game and more because the designers built in a limitation for a reason, and then provided an end-run to achieve the same result. 

It's a nasty alpha-strike, especially because it's a one-two punch with Langston popping out at the bottom of the activation, likely carrying Patchwork Plating. But it's 22 stones plus a master activation, and it's pretty well broadcast. While it has a long range, it's not infinite, and there are models in the game that could pretty easily deal with the choreographed Emissary.

All that being said, I would prefer it if the Emissaries hadn't been designed the way they were. I suspect we'll see one in most competitive lists sooner rather than later.

[Brassfist]

14 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

To explain my position; it bothers me, less because of what it actually accomplishes in-game and more because the designers built in a limitation for a reason, and then provided an end-run to achieve the same result. 

It's a nasty alpha-strike, especially because it's a one-two punch with Langston popping out at the bottom of the activation, likely carrying Patchwork Plating. But it's 22 stones plus a master activation, and it's pretty well broadcast. While it has a long range, it's not infinite, and there are models in the game that could pretty easily deal with the choreographed Emissary.

All that being said, I would prefer it if the Emissaries hadn't been designed the way they were. I suspect we'll see one in most competitive lists sooner rather than later.

Think it was an oversight that you get auto-decapitate, or that they couldn't design to prevent it?

I'll be attending my 1st tournament soon. The Emissary is a must have.

[Gnomezilla]

What's the point? It's on a master nobody seems to take in a competitive environment ANYway. (Yeah, I can't argue with the consensus of the masters which have too many disadvantageous match-ups, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Stupid, stupid balance to the certainties of playing Hoffman!)

I want to wait a few months and see what the release of sanctioned spellcasters does when it takes away the certainty of one way for the opponent to shut him down. If it does, then we'll start to see whether it's a problem, or just a threat to cough and mutter about before putting a different master on the table regardless.

[Brassfist]

15 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

What's the point? It's on a master nobody seems to take in a competitive environment ANYway. (Yeah, I can't argue with the consensus of the masters which have too many disadvantageous match-ups, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Stupid, stupid balance to the certainties of playing Hoffman!)

I want to wait a few months and see what the release of sanctioned spellcasters does when it takes away the certainty of one way for the opponent to shut him down. If it does, then we'll start to see whether it's a problem, or just a threat to cough and mutter about before putting a different master on the table regardless.

I'll be taking him to an upcoming tournament. He'll probably get lured apart or blasted to death, but auto-decapitating things should make me feel better 

[Durza]

I'd say it was just something that slipped through testing, The conflux of Hoff only added construct late in the testing and I didn't see anything about this combo until after the book had been out for a while.

I never got around to trying the combo, it seems powerful but it's broadcast pretty hard.

As to Hoffmans competitive viability, I won a tournament last year using him for half my games.

[Gnomezilla]

Maybe it's just a late apology for having removed triggers from O.S.A.--would that have been so bad?! It's limited to once per turn regardless!

10 minutes ago, Brassfist said:

I'll be taking him to an upcoming tournament. He'll probably get lured apart or blasted to death, but auto-decapitating things should make me feel better 

It'll certainly make me feel better. Stupid alluring rotten belles...stupid Lucy, in particular...

[thebarbalag]

It's not the same thing as just modding Langston, though. It requires an additional (not cheap) model and several additional steps, and requires you to take a very expensive piece off the board for a time. I think it's a beast of a combo, but not one that isn't visible a mile away, and doesn't have decent, usually readily available counters.

[LunarSol]

It's far less powerful in practice than it sounds in theory.  It's horrifying on Howard in a large part because of Nimble.  On the Emissary you're looking at a very expensive package to make it work efficiently and at a significantly shorter threat range.  The Emissary has some cool tricks, but the tax of needing a Death Marshal to make it even remotely flexible enough to function limits how truly effective the combos are and the crews it can slot in to.  It's a good piece, but it's really far from auto-include.

[Surrealistik]

Honestly, giving Emissary nimble and setting him up as a Killjoy bomb is probably scarier:

 

[Myyrä]

28 minutes ago, Surrealistik said:

Honestly, giving Emissary nimble and setting him up as a Killjoy bomb is probably scarier:

 

As unscary as that is, I probably have to agree.

[Surrealistik]

1 hour ago, Myyrä said:

As unscary as that is, I probably have to agree.

Unnecessary jab probably predicated on the assumption that it's a brag of some kind. My point is that it's not a big deal, and isn't really that effective vis a vis alternative uses of the Emissary, not that those alternative uses are game breaking or too powerful; they're not which makes this combo look even more lacklustre.

Hell, PapaBox + self-destruct spam is probably more powerful than the targeting system combo in practice (particularly when used with Obey).

[Hagisman]

Citing the previous fact it's 22 ss worth of models. 

27 ss left(upgrade required for Harold) you are probably spending points on Constructs. While they are good they aren't very versitile. 

[trikk]

8 hours ago, Surrealistik said:

Unnecessary jab probably predicated on the assumption that it's a brag of some kind. My point is that it's not a big deal, and isn't really that effective vis a vis alternative uses of the Emissary, not that those alternative uses are game breaking or too powerful; they're not which makes this combo look even more lacklustre.

Hell, PapaBox + self-destruct spam is probably more powerful than the targeting system combo in practice (particularly when used with Obey).

I think I would rather use papa Sh attack than blowing up unless its a real clump of enemy models.

[Surrealistik]

13 hours ago, trikk said:

I think I would rather use papa Sh attack than blowing up unless its a real clump of enemy models.

I would too, but that self-destruct is situationally absolutely devastating, and I bet many opponents will forget that the BE can do it (and can do it several times in a row).