Jump to content

July FAQ - Leveticus and Malifaux Rat Errata


Justin

Recommended Posts

38 minutes ago, Padre said:

For the first time I can honestly say I'm disappointed in Wyrd. Levi was very well tested during the beta and balanced by you and the community. The fact that you are willing to ignore that makes me ashamed that I've been telling people how much different you were as a company.

They didn't ignore feedback. They published him based on that feedback. Far more feedback showed he needed to be toned down. It's not even remotely comparable how little a given master was playtested over the few months of beta and what has been played since (particular when rules were changing week by week during beta). Even in beta, Levi's crew was problematic (included several complete overhauls) but the published rules were considered 'close enough' to publish. 

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Padre said:

For the first time I can honestly say I'm disappointed in Wyrd. Levi was very well tested during the beta and balanced by you and the community. The fact that you are willing to ignore that makes me ashamed that I've been telling people how much different you were as a company.

Levi got nowhere near the same amount of polish the other crews got, he was rewritten several times over the course of the beta, and I'm pretty sure by the end of it people were still saying he was over the top,  but they needed to finalize the rules to print so that was what we got.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Padre said:

For the first time I can honestly say I'm disappointed in Wyrd. Levi was very well tested during the beta and balanced by you and the community. The fact that you are willing to ignore that makes me ashamed that I've been telling people how much different you were as a company.

 

My first reaction based on this statement and your 3 post history is you are Trolling.

Having said that, I will bite anyway. 

No amount of play test can ever = 2+ years of actual table time not only at LGS around the world but all of the major tournaments around the world. Wyrd left Levi as is for years, gathering data and listening to the Malifaux community regarding their concerns. These concerns were not only from Levi opponents but from Levi players as well. Levi is still very good. I believe players will still win with him, maybe not quite as often. They will have to play him a little differently is all.   

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, Padre said:

For the first time I can honestly say I'm disappointed in Wyrd. Levi was very well tested during the beta and balanced by you and the community. The fact that you are willing to ignore that makes me ashamed that I've been telling people how much different you were as a company.

Wyrd were and are still are different IMO: They listened to the feedback from the community and did something about it. You are probably one of the few who feel that Levi was well tested and balanced. I hope this does not (Edit) dissuade you from playing Malifaux :) (If you are trolling: Mighty well done, Sir. Well done.)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am Levi player, I think he was too strong, cuddle was deserved. I hope, in case if needed, other masters will be also Cuddled :)

But I am here for other thing, as European player I don't have such easy acces to Wargame Vault, are you planning to add Levi/rats cards to next book? I can print it based on provided pdf, but I will never be as good as cards you provide :)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Ok I play Levi, it hurts my heart.. :'D

But I understand, Levetius was really powerful. I'l test this version on day... (Too much masters to play :P)

 

The rats still gain slow when they'll be summoned ? So when a crew non nihilist summons rats, they gain slow BUT can't activate, so they don't lose slow until next turn when they activate?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Manic Mouse said:

Honestly looks like good changes to me

Not to get into a "this or that" system on the Wyrd forums - but what Infinity and Malifaux are trying to do is basically lightyears apart.  The design of infinity, with cookie cutter models pulling from a pool of weapons and abilities, makes it much easier to balance due to the sameness of the models (and I honestly don't mean that to be derogatory).  The unique nature of Malifaux models make it exponentially more difficult to balance by its very nature, but it also makes each model more interesting.

And honestly having played Infinity a fair-ish amount I think there are certainly problems inherent in the system especially the RNG and "cheerleading" problems with the activation system.

Having my 60 point model one shotted by a 12 point model, on my activation, simply because of RNG dice roles might be "realistic" but it doesn't make for a balanced game IMO.  It's balanced on a multi game level in that it could happen to anyone, but it's not balanced on an individual game level because whoever it happens to in a match, if it happens, is suddenly at a severe disadvantage and may lose the game due to it.  Losing a game because of a single dice roll is not cool, and is one of the major issues I have with Infinity - the fact that expensive models can potentially be very easily taken out by very cheap models if they get lucky.

Infinity is a fun game, certainly very different than Malifaux.  But they are so different that I think it is fairly silly to draw comparisons.  It certainly isn't a perfect system and doesn't accommodate the variety of play styles that Malifaux does, or have as unique models.

I lost the last game miserably due to the opponent flipping a Red Joker. I had the first two turns' positioning and model activation sequence all calculated. Flipping a 6 something against the Red Joker on my final activaion and AP messed that up; I was not able to kill the Abomination I was going for, thus the Desolation Engine was formed, then it charged straight into my upfield models tying them up. I wasn't able to delay both the Engine and Levi with Depression, so as a result I had to give up two models and the position I had set up on the first turn. It was quite poetic in hindsight, scheming and calculating only to have it all wiped out in a stroke of luck. Whenever there is luck, there is a chance. And it might be a chance to win it big, or to go down it flames. Cards or dice, it's pretty much the same, except I feel more comfortable with cards.
Anyway, I completely agree about the unique nature of Malifaux models, this is part of why I love the game. The only comparison I intended to draw is how I am pleased with the balancing of these two quite different games. Once again, all of this is my opinion. Cheers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

56 minutes ago, Jafar said:

But I am here for other thing, as European player I don't have such easy acces to Wargame Vault, are you planning to add Levi/rats cards to next book? I can print it based on provided pdf, but I will never be as good as cards you provide :)

The postage from Wargame Vault is only a couple of euros if you only order a few cards. (The postage for the schemes and strategy deck was $3.20.)

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, Pallas4 said:

Ok I play Levi, it hurts my heart.. :'D

But I understand, Levetius was really powerful. I'l test this version on day... (Too much masters to play :P)

 

The rats still gain slow when they'll be summoned ? So when a crew non nihilist summons rats, they gain slow BUT can't activate, so they don't lose slow until next turn when they activate?

They'll be slow until they've actually activated, unless you have a rule in place to change that.

The summoning rules:

Quote

Models that are summoned gain the Slow Condition, and may not take Interact Actions during the Turn they are summoned.

From Slow:

Quote

The Slow Condition is removed at the end of a model's Activation (not during the End Step).

So if you summon something that can't activate, next turn it's going to have Slow on it until after it activates.

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

it was consistent but low damage. 2/3/4 is not great for a master. yes it ignores defensive tech but what if your opponent doesnt have any?
probably have to move, so 1 focus'd attack and 1 normal. so thats if both hit probably 6 damage (assuming you ha
ve severe in hand, my levi often only gets the 3 damage). wow the killy master of malifaux

ramos has the same damage track but no pistol (perhaps they should have removed the pistol symbol from levi). sonnia can get a CA9 attack with + (papa in box) and from the outcasts von schill can probably do better with his 3/4/5 (or alyce as well) ignoring hard to wound and Jack Daw now consistently outdamages Levi (no pistol, damage track plus cursed upgrades), most peoples complaints were about Levis hiring pool. yes his damage was consistent but not exactly high (especially for what is now a 1 cache caster)

I appreciate Wyrd explaining the whys behind this, however does this mean everytime the US "meta" whines about something enough a model gets screwed?
 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, katadder said:

it was consistent but low damage. 2/3/4 is not great for a master. yes it ignores defensive tech but what if your opponent doesnt have any?
probably have to move, so 1 focus'd attack and 1 normal. so thats if both hit probably 6 damage (assuming you ha
ve severe in hand, my levi often only gets the 3 damage). wow the killy master of malifaux

Wheras before he would have had one extra positive flip on that second attack, so like 8 damage if you have two severes?

I think what this is going to do (not that it's anything more than guesswork at this stage) is force people to use that half-your-wounds trigger or his melee attack when they want to get massive damage out of Levi. As well as making cover something there's a point in using against him.

EDIT: Also, as Justin said Levi up until this point wasn't the killy master of malifaux, he was the killy-unkillable-hypermobile-allhiring Master of Malifaux, so dropping his damage output to good from obnoxious is hardly going to render him unplayable. 

  • Like 8
Link to comment
Share on other sites

46 minutes ago, lusciousmccabe said:

I think what this is going to do (not that it's anything more than guesswork at this stage) is force people to use that half-your-wounds trigger or his melee attack when they want to get massive damage out of Levi. As well as making cover something there's a point in using against him.

 

This. As Levi player i am sure that I will switch playstyle. Before errata I mostly only used Ca7 shooting with :+fate from channel., it ignored cover and mostly all defense triggers. Now, I think, I will switch to more melee and this trigger.

Also please remember that:
- still have 2 free waifs;
- can hire undead / constructs;
- can reborn;
- can summon abominations;

Now Levi cannot kill half enemy crew (or 90% of enemy crew) by himself, support from you crew is needed ;)


off-top: I think that now I can use A&D with Belles without any hate because Levi is Cuddled :P

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2/3/4 is not obnoxious or even good, even when ignoring stuff when you consider gremlin masters with ranged 4/6/8 (very easy to have every turn), or von schill with 3/4/5 or the many other masters that massively outdamage Levi.

people ignored his damage track because he provided consistency. and ignored the :ranged because he could get around it (other masters have built in :+fate or no :ranged). 2/3/4 has never been a massive damage track. as a raspy player and a sonnia player those 2 will now blow Levi away (especially if he waits to finish things off)

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

27 minutes ago, katadder said:

ramos has the same damage track but no pistol (perhaps they should have removed the pistol symbol from levi). sonnia can get a CA9 attack with + (papa in box) and from the outcasts von schill can probably do better with his 3/4/5 (or alyce as well) ignoring hard to wound and Jack Daw now consistently outdamages Levi (no pistol, damage track plus cursed upgrades), most peoples complaints were about Levis hiring pool. yes his damage was consistent but not exactly high (especially for what is now a 1 cache caster)


I appreciate Wyrd explaining the whys behind this, however does this mean everytime the US "meta" whines about something enough a model gets screwed?  

Sonnia is usually considered to be slightly easier to kill than Levi. Not to mention that Papa in the Box isn't free so maybe you should consider Levi and the Emissary/Lazarus/whatever when comparing to Sonnia. And if you would rather take VS's attack than Levi's I don't know what to say. I mean, yeah, if you're shooting at Rotten Belles it's probably better but don't shoot Rotten Belles with Levi (unless they die and turn into Abominations) but rather at something more suited to his abilities. Jack Daw is difficult to compare since his Curses are so weird.

The devil's advocate: maybe the UK "meta" just didn't know how to play Levi properly ;) 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

more the fact we know how to beat him (and the rat engine)

and yes I know papa in box isnt free, but its something you often see with sonnia crews.

levi's thing was his consistency/reliability, his damage track wasnt high but it was consistent. now he doesnt even have that

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, trikk said:

He had 8 Severe with a ton of options for bonus flips. Thats higher than Lady Justice Severe.

and a 1 weak if you havent the cards in hand to cheat. thats if you put him into melee which with walk 4 charge 5 isnt highly likely.

Lady J has effectively a 4/5/7 that can get as high as 6/7/9 for the sort of resources you are also spending on levi.

Levi is melee has a 1/3/8, which is nice if you have the severe in hand or flip one but Lady J is more reliable in combat for overall damage and also for actual hitting.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm interested to see how much this changes Levi play, and I expect not much. It means cover matters to him now, but otherwise it's taken a Fairly consitant 9 damage to a slightly less consistent 7. It also makes him much better against neutralize the leader, as you can't give them 1 point for free. (Slightly tongue in cheek, but since I thought neutralize won against him, it's nice to see wyrd have boosted him to save him from that)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, katadder said:

levi's thing was his consistency/reliability, his damage track wasnt high but it was consistent. now he doesnt even have that

So what you are trying to communicate is that Levi wasn't Cuddled enough, because his damage wasn't significant even before the change?

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If consistent damage for you is basically 3 focused shots ignoring HtK, HtW with damage spread 2/3/4 that I think Perdita needs a buff ;)

Also would like to point out that Levi had higher chances to get a 8 from a charge than Lady Justice in general.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, Myyrä said:

So what you are trying to communicate is that Levi wasn't Cuddled enough, because his damage wasn't significant even before the change?

no, I am saying he didnt need a cuddle, certainly not like this.

most peoples complaints were his ability to bring the best models from other factions, but as explained, wyrd didnt want to invalidate peoples collections so this was never going to be hit. so basically took a heavy cuddle hammer to things that didnt really need changing and then throw in -1 cache for good measure.

its like the metal gamin cuddle (a pointless model now), it seems when wyrd cuddle something they really go to town on it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 minutes ago, katadder said:

no, I am saying he didnt need a cuddle, certainly not like this.

most peoples complaints were his ability to bring the best models from other factions, but as explained, wyrd didnt want to invalidate peoples collections so this was never going to be hit. so basically took a heavy cuddle hammer to things that didnt really need changing and then throw in -1 cache for good measure.

its like the metal gamin cuddle (a pointless model now), it seems when wyrd cuddle something they really go to town on it.

So let me see if I understood you correctly. Leveticus was strong because he could hire lots of different models, not because he did a lot of damage. Now he can still hire all the models he could before, and still doesn't do lots of damage.

Most people seem to disagree with you about Leveticus needing a cuddle, and to me it seems like from balance perspective it wouldn't matter which aspect of the master is hit as long as it makes him weaker. There is no single right way to cuddle a model.

  • Like 7
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information