Are we actually underpowered?

[HowNot2Wargame]

Yep a Nellie is a coming

 

saying that, I think there is a US/UK split in the type of lists they like. I think the US seem to prefer synergistic lists where every model has there place - hence guild has a lot of this to help create their alpha strike . UK has more of an enthasis on getting specialist models to play there role in concert, without specifically working together. Hence factions with more 'skew' models are favoured like Neverborn/Outcasts.

i think also in any other game Guild would be pretty broken with there ranged alpha strike. The joy of mofo is that with the scheming and board control this is cancelled out quite a bit. It's one of the main reasons I love the game as a Guild only player

[danp164]

I play in a pretty small meta in the UK, just a couple of friends but were looking to get more friends into the game and for starter games I'm using my guild to demo because i feel i can pull my punches easier and there's less rule's for new players to keep track of. I wouldn't dream of using my neverborn against a players first game and my friends that play have banned me from running resser against new players

 

On the differences between UK and US players I've noticed a few trends, one of them being the difference between Lynch players, personally i always use Expert Cheater for mind games fun and have ALWAYS found it worth the SS. From what I've heard its rarely used in the US.

[yipiyip]

Hm. Well, I'm new to Malifaux, but here's my two scrip.

The Guild is easy to play, and is a good and somewhat obvious choice for new players. So the majority of Guild players out there are newbies like me, causing many people to think Guild is bad (either because they play a lot of newbies, or new players, who inevitibly lose a lot starting out, are losing a lot with Guild).

This also lends itself in another way, that as these players get better and branch out, they look back on Guild and it's 'simple' playstyle, they can forget that while Guild is easy to learn it is hard to master. That's why I like the faction so much. There are very often 'easy' moves with Guild, wherein when you don't know what else to do, those options are always solid.

But while there are always those options available, there are other, more subtle approaches. Tricksy things people don't expect from the faction so lovingly thought of as "shooty-shooty stab-stab", aka the guys who beat things until scheme markers drop. This faction is a lot more versatile than people think, and a lot more complex than some may have you believe.

In summary; Simple enough for beginners, powerful enough for veterans, and versatile enough for professionals.

[Joel]

On 30 June 2016 at 7:29 PM, Justin said:

Or the UK needs to teach the USA to play everything else.

Just a matter of perspective.

But yes, there is definitely some disparity here between regions.

Best. Post. Ever. ?

[Adran]

On 22/07/2016 at 6:19 PM, MVBrandt said:

Each of the first 4 can play a single master in a tournament and win the thing, in any field, if played well. This isn't true for 10T, NVB, or Rez, presently. And, generally speaking, as an example point, when we recently played in the largely-attended Bragging Rights team event up in CT, it was very easy to deal with teams who chose not to bring Guild/Grem/Arc/Out, b/c the match involving Rez or 10T or Nvb was one where they were on the back foot from the first flip. It was a visible handicap. $.02

 

On 22/07/2016 at 8:08 PM, MVBrandt said:

Lilith has terrible match-ups within that framework (i.e. Som'er basically auto-wins vs. her in very similar fashion to how Rat Engine did). Kirai, Lilith, and Shenlong are the 3 "solos" you'd try for each of those factions, but none would make it through as readily as the Guild (Sonnia), Arc (Marcus), Gremlin (Som'er), or Outcast (several choices due to the fact the best Outcast build isn't really because of the Master) would.

Sonnia has some horrible matchs. She will really struggle to do well in stake a claim. If its in a scheme pool that also wants you to cross the half way line, then you are just going to struggle. Its not such an issue in GG16, but "mobility" can still cause problems. 

 

I'd have said the strongest 3 single master set ups were Kirai, Dreamer and Lileth. I've seen top players pilot them to wins in big event fields multiple times.  I'd have placed the best solo guild master as McCabe, and I'm not sure if he is stronger in TT than in guild. I'd probably agree with Marcus and Sommer, but not that the best outcast build is master independent.

[trikk]

4 hours ago, Adran said:

 

Sonnia has some horrible matchs. She will really struggle to do well in stake a claim. If its in a scheme pool that also wants you to cross the half way line, then you are just going to struggle. Its not such an issue in GG16, but "mobility" can still cause problems. 

 

I'd have said the strongest 3 single master set ups were Kirai, Dreamer and Lileth. I've seen top players pilot them to wins in big event fields multiple times.  I'd have placed the best solo guild master as McCabe, and I'm not sure if he is stronger in TT than in guild. I'd probably agree with Marcus and Sommer, but not that the best outcast build is master independent.

I wouldn`t call them horrible but they might be a hindrance. Sonnia is all about denying strategy from the opponent by limiting their model count. The question is not whenever Sonnia is good in Stake a Claim. The question is if the enemy crew is good playing against Sonnia in Stake a Claim

I do however agree that McCabe is probably the most versatile Guild master.

[bertmac]

Guild has 3 masters that are competative. Other factions just have more in general. I've never really struggled against guild lists only time i dropped points was a draw in my first tournament.

Casually I lost to a perdita list when i was playing guild lucius but that's a pretty tough matchup for anyone.

 

Lilith may be the most versatile master in the game I can't understand people thinking she's weak! 

Last big tournament I went to mccabe was well represented but the players seemed to overrate his fighting ability and he died fairly quickly against me playing Kaeris and my buddy playing Lilith.

[daniello_s]

5 minutes ago, bertmac said:

Lilith may be the most versatile master in the game I can't understand people thinking she's weak! 

Whoever thinks that has a huge LOL from me... HUGE... 

[trikk]

36 minutes ago, bertmac said:

Guild has 3 masters that are competative. Other factions just have more in general. I've never really struggled against guild lists only time i dropped points was a draw in my first tournament.

Casually I lost to a perdita list when i was playing guild lucius but that's a pretty tough matchup for anyone.

 

Lilith may be the most versatile master in the game I can't understand people thinking she's weak! 

Last big tournament I went to mccabe was well represented but the players seemed to overrate his fighting ability and he died fairly quickly against me playing Kaeris and my buddy playing Lilith.

I`d say more like 5. McMourning and Justice are all pretty versatile TBH and I think they can wreck face with Francisco even if the top 3 are probably better.  Hoffman can really wreck face but he has a lot of counters but an Arm +3, Fast Howard with + to Ml or Damage flips that gets unburied 12-18" up the field can be devastating. And then there`s Lucius who I SO BAD WANT TO WORK but its impossibru

 

As for you`re experience vs Guild, I don`t know how big your meta is but a lot of times it just takes one good player to swap to a faction to change everything.

(I`m in no way saying you are a bad player. Maybe you just didn`t play vs a good guild player or maybe you won all your games because you are a very good player ^^) 

 

As for Lilith:

My regular opponent mains her (while also playing Lynch and Pandora) and I find her very challenging to play against as its pretty hard to determine what she`ll do in her turn (will she attack, root, where will the forest go, will she swap something with nekima?)

[bertmac]

I've played a couple of times with LJ and she seems fun but one dimensional.

Only played vs guild mcmorning once and won with guild lucius. He also appears to be less good in guild than ressers.

We have a few guild players in my meta but have also faced the top ranked guild player in the UK I won with Kaeris who I know very well but isn't the most competitive master in the game, he still ended up 2nd that tournament. Most of the other tournament games vs guild have been against one of my local guys I seem to keep my guys out of sight of Sonnia until I can walk someone up next to her.

[trikk]

Even thought I believe that one-time games cannot really be counted for statistics (bad hands, bad days etc), maybe you`re just the better player and it has nothing to do with Guild

I doubt I`d take McMourning vs Guild. Haven`t yet played him but I can see him being annoying and handing precise would well vs other factions.

 

Will you be at the UK Nationals this year?

[daniello_s]

1 hour ago, trikk said:

As for Lilith:

My regular opponent mains her (while also playing Lynch and Pandora) and I find her very challenging to play against as its pretty hard to determine what she`ll do in her turn (will she attack, root, where will the forest go, will she swap something with nekima?)

Hear, hear!

[bertmac]

1 hour ago, trikk said:

Even thought I believe that one-time games cannot really be counted for statistics (bad hands, bad days etc), maybe you`re just the better player and it has nothing to do with Guild

I doubt I`d take McMourning vs Guild. Haven`t yet played him but I can see him being annoying and handing precise would well vs other factions.

 

Will you be at the UK Nationals this year?

Yeah I don't face them that often though so can only offer a few anecdotes and the majority of my own guild experience is with Lucius so my perspective may be slightly skewed. Saying that I did win a henchman led game with Dashel against cassandra at a tournament one time. 

My finding is generally guild is probably a little too squishy, i do enjoy using sabertooth cerberus' and the rail golem a lot though so that probably doesn't help with perception and my games against them tend to be murder francisco then everything else!

 

No not going to nationals, i'm not sure 7 games in 2 days sounds that much fun to be honest I love the game but my locals deliverence 3 and 2 games seems perfect as one dayers always see me much less bothered by game 4.

[trikk]

Too bad.

Wish I could prove you wrong :P!

[bertmac]

Haha one day!

[Guardian]

My biggest problem with guild (my faction) is Francisco. I am sick of that guy, so stupidly good and essential for many crews, it breaks the theme and list flexibility.

Not taking him in 80% of the time is actively gimping yourself, while taking him becomes tediously boring.

Sometimes I wonder if some models/masters have been balanced with francisco in mind...

[LunarSol]

1 hour ago, Guardian said:

My biggest problem with guild (my faction) is Francisco. I am sick of that guy, so stupidly good and essential for many crews, it breaks the theme and list flexibility.

Not taking him in 80% of the time is actively gimping yourself, while taking him becomes tediously boring.

Sometimes I wonder if some models/masters have been balanced with francisco in mind...

I'm sure they have, and that's the real issue with Francisco.  He's really not all that good compared to other Henchmen out there, but a lot of Masters in Guild feel pretty actively handicapped without El Mayor.  He also suffers from a lot of his competition being a bit below the curve too.  Removing Francisco doesn't suddenly make Sidir worth his effective 10 SS or Dashel any less of a huge tax on Riflemen.

[trikk]

I guess if Justice and McMourning had Df6 and Sonnia Df5 they could drop El Mayor to +1 it still would be viable but not that necessary. Those 3 are the ones that need him the most IMHO.

 

I also think that there`s an issue with the Henchmen as they are mostly overpriced and the thing you want them for is usually on the upgrade while their unique abilities are not shining (Looking at you ca 5 Judge). Francisco is simply an all-rounder. He can fight in melee, he has El Mayor, Companion, Flurry, Finesse, a very good personal Upgrade.

[LunarSol]

1 hour ago, trikk said:

I guess if Justice and McMourning had Df6 and Sonnia Df5 they could drop El Mayor to +1 it still would be viable but not that necessary. Those 3 are the ones that need him the most IMHO.

 

I also think that there`s an issue with the Henchmen as they are mostly overpriced and the thing you want them for is usually on the upgrade while their unique abilities are not shining (Looking at you ca 5 Judge). Francisco is simply an all-rounder. He can fight in melee, he has El Mayor, Companion, Flurry, Finesse, a very good personal Upgrade.

Pretty much all the Guild Henchmen have a problem of being almost indistinguishable generalists on their base card with their unique abilities tied to overpriced upgrades.  Unrelenting Leader might be a 2 SS ability, but it doesn't make the Judge an 11 SS model.  Similarly, Sidir really needs by your side baked in.  Honestly, even Francisco suffers from this, but he wins out by being best of breed due to being a cheaper model with a cheaper upgrade that efficiently steers him towards a successful playstyle.  We also generally suffer from a lack of a really strong generic upgrade to make use of the second upgrade slot.

I do think really all the Henchmen need is a cost savings somewhere; generally of just a point.  Whether that comes from the upgrade or base card depends a lot on the specific model.

[Gnomezilla]

A recent Facebook topic on getting minimum damage 5 out of Guild models got me thinking about each henchman's unique abilities and the costs thereof, and Francisco's tricks ALL work at the low cost of no cost and/or discard a card, and companion+flurry is the best for pummeling the opponent with no chance to react (I think he failed to pay the cost for either of those abilities, let alone the combo, when he was costed), and on top of all that landing on base cost 8 instead of...well, what everyone else got. If nothing else, writing that list out made me appreciate Samael a bit more for lessening the importance of the suits in one's hand. All he needs is someone else's AP to set things on fire first, not a suit or a stone. And that need to survive more than one enemy activation in order to exploit that burning is why he's useless without any defensive tech baked-in. So much closer to being complete than I had first thought, and yet...

Off topic, does anyone else find it hilarious that Sidir does not randomize while emptying the magazine, but can't reliably shoot into engagement if he's firing at a single target? Other than the wastrels, of course. I guarantee they find friendly fire hilarious.

[LunarSol]

2 minutes ago, Gnomezilla said:

(I think he failed to pay the cost for either of those abilities, let alone the combo, when he was costed)

The thing is, "failing" to pay for those things is the only reason he's on par with what other factions expect from their henchmen. 

[trikk]

I actually think Finesse + heal should be an upgrade and HtK should be base card probably. I played the Judge today as a ringer in tournament and I agree with LunarSol. Unrelenting Leader is worth 2SS in its current form but Judge is worth less than Francisco in SS. He is more tanky (HtW and 2 wds) but offers no real support and utility while still being offensively worse than Francisco. He requires 8s on most his offensive Ca and Stand for Judgment had to be really awesome at beta testing to end up like it did

[Guardian]

On 30 June 2016 at 8:46 PM, Justin said:

I think Guild has a select few excellent lists (Sonnia, McCabe, and even Perdita though I think other players tend to undervalue her), and a lot of middle of the road lists.

Traditionally they do have some of the weaker Upgrades, which I think is a big limiting factor for the Faction.

My 2 cents.

(not trying to sound snarky) Is anything being (or planning to be) done about it? At least some FAQ rebalances in the works?
ie. abilities that affect scheme markers at the end of the game (lucius, mcm) where these days schemes score every turn.

@Justin: Also wondering, did the fact that Francisco has such an amazing ability influence the design of other models?

[Justin]

6 minutes ago, Guardian said:

(not trying to sound snarky) Is anything being (or planning to be) done about it? At least some FAQ rebalances in the works?
ie. abilities that affect scheme markers at the end of the game (lucius, mcm) where these days schemes score every turn.

@Justin: Also wondering, did the fact that Francisco has such an amazing ability influence the design of other models?

Done about what?

I'm not really in the camp that thinks Guild as a whole is underpowered. As I said I do agree they lack upgrades. We've made the numbers on the generalist Upgrade deck public. You should check out how many upgrades Guild have compared to other Factions...

 

[trikk]

I believe Guardian meant internal balance issues. I think Guild as a Faction are ok, but we heavily rely on Francisco, Papa Loco and Austringers (if you`re not McCabe) but I believe its due to 2 things:

3 masters (even 4 counting McMourning) are mostly damage dealers, they don`t make your units move faster or really buff them