Levi + rat engine = NPE

[Math Mathonwy]

Just now, daniello_s said:

Erratas and fixing problems with some models/rules are always welcome as long as it is justified.

As for more suggestions how to possible tackle the Ratjoy (apart of Gremlins and Arcanists):

- Guild: Sonnia + Malifaux Child blocking the approaches with their firewalls

- Neverborn: Lilith + 2x Waldgeist - similar approach to the above, Dreamer and his Day Dreams to block approaches

- Outcasts: Hans with Scout the Field, Freikorps Trappers, Levi+A&D, Ronins/Desperate Mercs blocking approaches, Hamelin + Rusty and their charge-denial auras

- TT: Katanaka Snipers

- Ressers: loads of cheap minions/summons to block approaches 

 

 

Have you had reliable success with these against Ratjoy? (Not to discount them if you haven't - just interesting to know which ones are theory and which ones are actually tested).

I can see that a lot of those depend a lot on whether the terrain favours you or not. For example, with the Guild suggestion, if that works, it essentially means that the terrain is such that you are able to block off the enemy into their deployment zone which is a sure-fire win tactic but IME somewhat difficult to accomplish (luckily, because beating Sonnia on such a table is essentially impossible).

[daniello_s]

My Irish Malifaux community is so small I had no chance to play against Ratjoy so far (I was the one who was using it) so those are mine picks how I would try to tackle it if necessary. As I sold the Hamelin-part of my Outcasts to a friend of mine I hope to play against it pretty quickly

About the terrain setup - we all agree there should be enough terrain to have a decent amount of cover which includes LOS blocking and severe terrain so 'blocking lanes' tactic should be viable option in normal setting.

 

 

[Bodiless]

5 hours ago, Adran said:

Pigapult - 5 stuffed pigs, Sommer, family tree, 3 bayou gremlins, Killjoy, slop hauler. Skeetar. 

Can easily do 15 activations before you unbury killjoy, the last of which puts Killjoy anywhere within 25" of the pigapult all ready to activate. I've faced this list and variations on it over the last couple of years. (Lenny is able to replace the pigapult if you wanted to do it just from the first book, but you are restricted in the straight line of his push rather than the place of the pigapult ). yes it is very 1 dimensional, and only has 3 "scary" threats. You could lower your activation count to add an extra threat like Francois. 

 

 

 

As an FYI, the person who ran over me with the Raticus (Rat+Leveticus, does that work? ) list is primarily a Somer player. His reaction was definitely not that this was really no worse than his Somer list. His reaction was this list is hellabroken and needs fixing asap. His list didn't have Killjoy in it and didn't rely on a last activation delivery of KJ. His list relied on delivering A&D, Levi, and in his case a Rogue Necro but could have been any crazy 10ss beater after my entire crew had gone. 

 

Again, based on his actual play experience a top-notch Gremlin player's reaction was that the two approaches are not even close. 

[daniello_s]

2 minutes ago, Bodiless said:

As an FYI, the person who ran over me with the Raticus (Rat+Leveticus, does that work? )...

I like that one! Well done

[Math Mathonwy]

18 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

About the terrain setup - we all agree there should be enough terrain to have a decent amount of cover which includes LOS blocking and severe terrain so 'blocking lanes' tactic should be viable option in normal setting.

Aye, but to what extent is the question, I think. Ratjoy has an absolutely tremendous threat range. If you can block them effectively, then that means that you could block a non-Ratjoy crew utterly completely and win against them completely hands down. I'm not sure that terrain that allows for that sort of an outcome is a good amount of terrain. Also note that if the terrain is utterly crazy, Ratjoy can advance for one round and use the engine only on the second turn.

[daniello_s]

39 minutes ago, trikk said:

As for the rat engine. If its OP or not is one thing. I would just errata it for being boring If I want to wait 20 mins til my opponent finishes his turn I can go play 40k 

Fully agreed with that one.

[teegee]

1 hour ago, daniello_s said:

Erratas and fixing problems with some models/rules are always welcome as long as it is justified.

As for more suggestions how to possible tackle the Ratjoy (apart of Gremlins and Arcanists):

- Guild: Sonnia + Malifaux Child blocking the approaches with their firewalls

- Neverborn: Lilith + 2x Waldgeist - similar approach to the above, Dreamer and his Day Dreams to block approaches

- Outcasts: Hans with Scout the Field, Freikorps Trappers, Levi+A&D, Ronins/Desperate Mercs blocking approaches, Hamelin + Rusty and their charge-denial auras

- TT: Katanaka Snipers

- Ressers: loads of cheap minions/summons to block approaches 

 

 

Reading the Adepticon report the rat player beat a nico and a Hamelin(s). So I don't think those are viable stop gap solutions. 

I think a podcast (before we begin?) goes over the games with 3 (4?) of his opponents. 

 

[Myth]

3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Aye, but to what extent is the question, I think. Ratjoy has an absolutely tremendous threat range. If you can block them effectively, then that means that you could block a non-Ratjoy crew utterly completely and win against them completely hands down. I'm not sure that terrain that allows for that sort of an outcome is a good amount of terrain. Also note that if the terrain is utterly crazy, Ratjoy can advance for one round and use the engine only on the second turn.

Also worth noting - I think there is a difference in power level between 'I out-activate you and drop Killjoy in your face' vs 'I out-activate you and drop Killjoy + 2-3 other threats in your face'. (Which is also the difference between out-activating by 2 bonus activations vs 6-7 bonus activations.)

It is hard to truly stop Killjoy from being delivered where and when the enemy wants. But Killjoy on his own, as big a threat as he is, can only do so much damage (especially against an opponent prepared for him). The real abuse comes when Killjoy's assault is joined in by the Viks, or Levi and A&D, etc. And that is where, I think, blocking the avenues or approach becomes a stronger defense, since most of those other threats are relying on raw movement to get into place, and can be much more hindered by terrain, unchargeable models, sacrificial pawns in their way, etc. And I don't think it takes an unreasonable amount of terrain to do so, at least in my experience.

[Nical]

Collodi + Lazarus + cheap minions list is useful against Rat engine and other Killjoy bomb list.

Lazarus can deal at least 11 wounds by Auto Fire (Sh 6) with Pull the String (Ca7, non-trigger) by Assimilate in only one Activation and Killjoy has Df 4 / Wp 5 / 12 wounds. This means if Killjoy can't kill Lazarus, Lazarus may destroy Killjoy in his next activation. So if you use cheap minions to keep Lazarus from Killjoy, Killjoy bomb itself can be countered.

 

But Levi / Viks with Rat Engine are always strong opponents, because their lists always have "Threat B (by themselves)" and sometimes have more threats. So you must use Collodi's Pull the String to control these threats. For Example, while Lazarus and other minions fight against other threats, Collodi can hold or Control Killjoy by giving Slow + A New Thread Conditions.

[orkdork]

On 6/24/2016 at 8:10 AM, teegee said:

Reading the Adepticon report the rat player beat a nico and a Hamelin(s). So I don't think those are viable stop gap solutions. 

I think a podcast (before we begin?) goes over the games with 3 (4?) of his opponents. 

FWIW, that Nicodem player is a consistently excellent player. I haven't had the pleasure of playing against him yet, but from many accounts from likewise excellent Malifaux players on the US/Canadian west coasts, he's both super nice and super good! Even if he's never faced Ratjoy, I'd wager that he knew exactly how it works.

[necroon]

Any general weaknesses or angles that anyone has found? Figured it wouldn't hurt to prep in case the July Errata doesn't touch this as I have a few tournaments on the horizon.

Typically I drop in Lilith against Outcast players (obviously this can vary depending on the scheme pool but there isn't anything she is bad against, per-say) as she seems to give me the best play against their strong competitors: Any options I'm missing?

• Tangle Shadows gets the rat where they want it if it dies. I suppose I could try and hold it, however, and just do my best to separate it from the pack and (ironically) keep it alive. 
• Tangle Shadows Nix (?) I don't have too much experience here as my local meta is light on Outcasts. 
• Spread out like crazy and just let some fast moving models (Sliruds, tots, and Gupps) try and get the real work done.
• Mysterious Effigy seems like it may help control some of the damage dealt on the initial charge assuming the Master is the target (Seems like it usually is?).

Honestly what worries me most here is that there are so many defensive abilities we have that only matter if the model hasn't activated and a lot of our tools seem to rely on "springing the trap" so to speak. Perhaps I'm just having trouble adapting or looking for a new way of thinking. 

[Bodiless]

Just remember that you are going to move your entire crew before your opponent needs to set foot outside their deployment zone. Unless you boost Lilith up the board you are not going to be in range of anything with Tangle or Wicked. If you do boost her up the board she is going to be sitting mostly unsupported pretty close to the opposing zone.

Basically, throw out any plan that has you taking an attack action against a model if that plan doesn't also involve you reaching them in their zone. 

I haven't tried either of these next options yet, but other people say they have had (some) success with them and I can see the theory.

1. Use Lilith to slingshot a jamming model or two into their zone. The Raticus crew (I'm sticking with that wants their beaters killing models of their choice up the field. They don't want to be spending AP in their own zone killing a gupp or a terror tot. Bonus aggravation if you can use a dead gupp to pop a Fears Given Form Bad Juju up next to something important.

2. Use Collodi and the Mysterious or Shadow Effigy buff to limit the damage the alpha strike can do. Take the first big hit, hopefully on a marionette, and then push out of range. Cheat initiative with the doppelganger next turn and let Collodi slow/control as much of their crew as possible.

[necroon]

10 minutes ago, Bodiless said:

Just remember that you are going to move your entire crew before your opponent needs to set foot outside their deployment zone. Unless you boost Lilith up the board you are not going to be in range of anything with Tangle or Wicked. If you do boost her up the board she is going to be sitting mostly unsupported pretty close to the opposing zone.

Yeah. I was thinking Graves and Dopple with a double move. Seems like I'm going to lose Lillith anyways: Can at least make some trouble before I do. 

 

11 minutes ago, Bodiless said:

1. Use Lilith to slingshot a jamming model or two into their zone. The Raticus crew (I'm sticking with that wants their beaters killing models of their choice up the field. They don't want to be spending AP in their own zone killing a gupp or a terror tot. Bonus aggravation if you can use a dead gupp to pop a Fears Given Form Bad Juju up next to something important.

See I was considering Bad JuJu as his Tactical action seems good for clearing out the rats. Perhaps Ill try that. 

12 minutes ago, Bodiless said:

2. Use Collodi and the Mysterious or Shadow Effigy buff to limit the damage the alpha strike can do. Take the first big hit, hopefully on a marionette, and then push out of range. Cheat initiative with the doppelganger next turn and let Collodi slow/control as much of their crew as possible.

I've had luck with that in general - not sure why I didn't think of applying it here..... 

Thanks, @Bodiless!

 

[vulky]

What about Hexed Among You on Bad Juju, deploy 3 Waldgeist from shadows just 6'' from enemy deploy and don't deploy Bad Juju.

Charge every single Waldgeist into the rats, trying to kill the rats while keeping the beaters engaged in the Waldgeist's range of 4'', so they can't leave easily nor hit you twice (Waldgeists outrange every other model so they would have to walk and then hit them).

Eventually the Waldgeists will die, and a Bad Juju will pop.

Graves pushes Lilith forward 6'' from deployment and walks.

If you add a Doppleganger she can walk, copy Graves' push and do it on Lilith again.

Lilith can reach with her spells after 1-2 walks, supporting the Waldgeists and Juju.

That's the entire crew basically, add maybe Primordial Magic. (6+6+6+11+7+8+2+Upgrades)  50 Soulstones.

If he tries to delay the game, literally deploy your crew in his deployment zone, that's the strat.

[necroon]

6 minutes ago, vulky said:

What about Hexed Among You on Bad Juju, deploy 3 Waldgeist from shadows just 6'' from enemy deploy and don't deploy Bad Juju.

Charge every single Waldgeist into the rats, trying to kill the rats while keeping the beaters engaged in the Waldgeist's range of 4'', so they can't leave easily nor hit you twice (Waldgeists outrange every other model so they would have to walk and then hit them).

Eventually the Waldgeists will die, and a Bad Juju will pop.

Graves pushes Lilith forward 6'' from deployment and walks.

If you add a Doppleganger she can walk, copy Graves' push and do it on Lilith again.

Lilith can reach with her spells after 1-2 walks, supporting the Waldgeists and Juju.

That's the entire crew basically, add maybe Primordial Magic. (6+6+6+11+7+8+2+Upgrades)  50 Soulstones.

If he tries to delay the game, literally deploy your crew in his deployment zone, that's the strat.

I will most likely give that a try. It's not like I can't get other stuff done in case my Outcast opponent doesn't  have Rat-Joy with that crew composition.

[Bodiless]

The problem I see with this approach is you are basically feeding your entire crew into the meatgrinder. My guess is that what will happen is your opponent will take two turns to wipe out the waldgeists and permanently bury juju, and then run riot on you for the rest of the game. I like the idea of the first turn jam, but I think you have to regard whatever you send in as disposable. 29ss I think is too much to sacrifice. 

[trikk]

I also think that 2 Viks+nix can probably finish off 2x Waldgeists quite easily.

[Adran]

2 minutes ago, trikk said:

I also think that 2 Viks+nix can probably finish off 2x Waldgeists quite easily.

Yes, but can they survive the counter attack of Juju?

And since part of the threat of the crew is having 2 models able to attack you in your deployemnt zone on the first turn without retaliation, this does stop that. (at the cost of them being able to attack a model that you've chosen). 

Its certainly a question changer. Its probably not an answer, but you've made the outcast player play a different game to the one they intended. 

 

[Bodiless]

I would just rather jam with gupps instead of waldgeists and make sure that I had swampfiends that were not going into the jam. I think I would also bring in McTavish to hold Hexed Among You, so that I can have Eternal and Fears Given Form on Juju to maximize the disruption. The calculus is that I expect everything I throw into their zone to die in short order. How do I maximize the disruption while minimizing the cost?

[Tawg]

7 hours ago, Bodiless said:

The calculus is

What are we doing differentials now?

[Chris Rivers]

Calculus, that word still gives me nightmares, like a Teddy to the face.  

[Icemyn]

This is all great, right up until your opponent just plays Leveticus or the viktorias with a Rat Engine not RatJoy. Then you look really, really silly.

[Bodiless]

 

48 minutes ago, Icemyn said:

This is all great, right up until your opponent just plays Leveticus or the viktorias with a Rat Engine not RatJoy. Then you look really, really silly.

I didn't really have RatJoy in mind when I was noodling this out. My hope, and obviously you are in a good position to judge if it would work at all, is to make Levi/Viks/A&D/Rogue Necro/omgwtfbbq spend ap killing gupps in their own zone rather than murdering key models in mine. I freely acknowledge that it is theorycrafting and I will not be surprised in the slightest if it fails. But until there is some sort of errata this build is going to keep showing up, so unless we all switch to Outcasts until that happens we need to keep trying to think of solutions.

[Clockwork_Fish]

I've never played against the rat engine, but here's a thought.  What about Lucius with Austringers and as many Changelings as you can cram into the list (assuming you aren't averse to using proxies until they come out in September)?  Maybe throw in a Pathfinder to lay some traps and slow the enemy down, while moving up the Austringers and their little friends out of line of sight.  Then send out the birds to start gobbling up rats.  And Levi's defense is low enough that even Sh 4 Changelings will be able to carve up his 8 wounds pretty quick.  Faster if he pops up somewhere where they can steal his death touch and turn his own jerk attack against him.

Lucius with upgrades - 4

Scribe - 2 (I'd take this guy over the Primordial Magic just for the sheer weight of Mimics on the field, but either works)

2 Austringers - 12

Pathfinder - 6

6 Changelings - 24

Total - 48 points

[Nical]

43 minutes ago, Clockwork_Fish said:

6 Changelings - 24

Changelings are Rare 3 Models.