ChrisNeverborn Posted June 11, 2016 Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 HI all, Still struggling to choose a faction in Malifaux - I have a tendancy to go for Lawful Evil factions - what faction(s) would fall into Lawful Evil in Malifaux terms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnomezilla Posted June 11, 2016 Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 We can argue about good and evil all day, but if you want lawful, well...stroll along with me and have a chat with a Guild Lawyer... (Because "battle lawyer" isn't far behind "zombie whores" in phrases that make people go "wait, WHAT kind of game is this...tell me more...") What didn't you like about playing Arcanists? I want to know to fine-tune the suggestion of what master to go for within Guild. Although nobody can argue that our henchman coming soon Master Queeg is not a total shitpile of a lawful evil human being. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted June 11, 2016 Report Share Posted June 11, 2016 Ummm All of them? Faction wise there really aren't any good guys or bad guys. There are heroic characters and villainous characters in each faction, and often both those dynamics can apply to the same characters. The Guild are not only heroic lawmen, and monster hunters who protect the people of Malifaux but they are also an oppressive, Tyranical, and corrupt organization who kills, imprisons, and de facto enslaved individuals on a regular basis. The Neverborn are Native Monsters who kill, maim, eat, and transform humans, often for no better reason than for their own enjoyment, but they are also the original inhabitants of the world of Malifaux who are reacting to their home bein invaded. The Arcanists are a criminal organization who opposes the Guild's edict that there is only one legal and tolerated path to the practice of magic (theirs, the Thalarian Doctrine) who fight for the freedom to practice the way they want, but members of the organization can often be no better than the mafia in their methods and have amount their members an ice witch who leads a cannible cult, a practitioner who prefers the wild savage purity of the animals to anything civilized, and so on. It's like that with basically all factions. Malifaux is basically a world full of moral shades of grey and all the factions are paints in various shades of grey. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker Barrows Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 I agree with Fetid that depending on Master and POV, pretty much every faction can be evil (or maybe even good). Lawful is a different story. I'd say Guild and Ten Thunders are the two "Lawful Evil" factions. Guild is kinda obvious as a tyrannical government. Ten Thunders are an underground, highly disciplined organization. I'd actually consider Ten Thunders might be a little more "lawful evil" as they have fewer heroic Masters (Lady Justice, Perdita, and Hoffman are definitely heroic characters regardless of the Guild itself). That said, it all depends on the Master. Gremlins are defintely the most chaotic faction, but Ophelia may be considered Lawful. Honestly, there will be no perfect answer since it isn't designed on the good vs evil/law vs chaos morality. But I say check out Guild and Ten Thunders, or maybe even check out all Masters and see if there is one that fits your style even though the faction might not be (example: Rezzers as a faction is pretty chaotic - almost no heirarchy or any formal organization, many of them are just crazy - but Nicodem is very "Lawful Evil" type). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freman Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 Lawful Evil: Guild, Ten Thunders Neutral Evil: Outcasts, Arcanists Chaotic Evil: Neverborn, Gremlins, Resurrectionists We're all evil here. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 I'd disagree with those characterizations, personally. Malifaux as a setting just doesn't fit into nice neat, or even general tropes of morality. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_acolyte Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 I find evil and good is a subjective issue, which is often not approached in this way. This is to echo Fetid, but it not just Malifaux but the whole world that does not fit general morality tropes, we like boiling it down to such but really evil is chosen by a society and generally involves the braking of there norms or traditions so what I as an American call evil may be different from an Indian. Does this mean they are wrong, no it just means how we see the world is different. this is then echoed in the construct of society through time where people try and ascribe modern morals to the past, speaking as a carnivora I do not want a person in 3016 to try saying that i am not a moral person because i rather cook a rabbit then pet it. So to answer your question without knowing your cultural background or getting into the finer details of Malifaux morality: go guild, they are the law as far a humans care and are ripe with hate, biases, abuse of force, and corruption. McCabe or Lucius would defiantly fit LE in most modern opinions. Also it would help if you define what you see as acts a lawful evil person would do. Yes, I know LE is LE but as I stated evil is subjective and there for is by its nature not concrete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solkan Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 The thing is, if you're going to try to assign alignments, you pretty much have to do that on an individual character by character basis. And then you'll have to deal with the fact that a lot of the characters think they're the good guys. And I think it's really troubling that the factions most interested in acting as legitimate governments (Guild and Ten Thunders) have been identified as lawful evil.  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 When people say things like "Lawful Evil" I assume they are basically talking about Dungeon and Dragon definitions, not philosophical ponderings about the nature of good and evil. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeeblee Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 For DnD alignments I've found Lawful Evil to be interesting when defined as Machiavellian. A character who believes in an established order (or building one) and possessing no limits for how to obtain said order. Given that setup I would likely look to the following: Lucius - Probably the most obvious. A faceless bureaucrat who will sacrifice everyone else to reach his unknown goal. Ramos - A man of the people who thinks of them as nothing more than parts in his machine. Nicodem - A knowledge-seeker who hasn't gone [as openly] mad as his academic peers. I don't know enough about the Ten Thunders, but I'm sure at least one of their masters fits the bill. I'm in agreement with many comments above about good vs evil classifications not being as clear-cut as usual here. The Neverborn for example are themed in a traditionally evil way, but Zoraida, Lilith, and Pandora seem to be seeking ways to actually save [their] citizens of Malifaux. Dreamer commits some of the greatest acts of death and destruction, but he seems ignorant of the truth of his actions (Lord Chompy/Nytemare on the other hand is classically evil). The other faction modeled on traditionally evil tropes, the Resurrectionists, also contains some good/sympathetic characters. Now, I personally find Seamus to be an awful/evil character, but Kirai and Molly are both seem to be fighting to survive (with a bit of vengeance gone too far mixed in). I think a better way to define what you're aiming for alignment-wise could be, "Which faction best fits a lawful evil aesthetic?" For that I would say: Neverborn, Resurrectionists, and a few Outcasts. Then again, maybe you are looking to play evil for story; in which case you're likely stuck with the "depends" answers both here and above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solkan Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 Well, that's the thing. I'm pretty darned sure that Lady Justice would be Lawful Good (although you'd be able to argue points along the LN to LG continuum) in D&D terms. And the Ortegas would definitely be in the Lawful Good to Neutral Good territory. As far as some of the other characters are concerned, where does "Character is being blackmailed to act against their interests" fit into the alignment scheme? Disclaimer: The last time I played Pathfinder involved a neutral character preventing a lawful good character executing some lesser humanoids as vermin. There have been lots of background characters and Guild officials depicted acting in line with the lawful evil definitions, but the background characters from all of the factions have been depicted as a variety of alignments. And a truly benevolent Guild official likely wouldn't be interesting enough to warrant column inches in a war game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 I must confess I'm not 100% in on the D&D alignment system but is Perdita even lawful? She seems to work for the guild mostly because she wants their scrip. She has created a stronghold in the middle of nowhere where her family hangs out, chews bublegum and kill any sentient beings who get close. In the stories I read she hasn't shown much regard for the law or any grand scheme for how to rearrange the world to her liking. My short answer to the original question: Lucius! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnomezilla Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 7 hours ago, solkan said: Well, that's the thing. I'm pretty darned sure that Lady Justice would be Lawful Good (although you'd be able to argue points along the LN to LG continuum) in D&D terms. And the Ortegas would definitely be in the Lawful Good to Neutral Good territory. As far as some of the other characters are concerned, where does "Character is being blackmailed to act against their interests" fit into the alignment scheme? ... ...shut up, go away, and don't take you-know-who with you when you go! (, especially to those who were subjected to my shirty little "Pariah of Iron hiring list is a disgrace" rant last Malifaux session--surprised Peter O'Toole didn't rise from the grave to tell me to tone the theatrics down a little)  I push Lady J and the Ortegas to neutral on the lawful-chaotic axis. If the Governor-General was standing between Lady J and something which needed to be put down, I wouldn't give odds on him surviving, and the Ortegas (as noted) are a law unto themselves. Wait a minute...do you really literally mean Perdita-of-the-Tarakians (and whoa if you remembered that very long ago reference), in which case I want to change my answer.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 Lady Justice: Lawful Good Perdita: Neutral Good Sonnia: Neutral Good Hoffman: Lawful Good McCabe: Chaotic Neutral Lucius: Lawful Evil McMourning: Chaotic Evil Seamus: Chaotic Evil Nicodem: Lawful Evil Yan Lo: Lawful Evil Kirai: Chaotic Neutral Molly: Neutral Tara: Neutral Ramos: Lawful Evil Rasputina: Chaotic Evil Marcus: Chaotic Neutral Mei Feng: Neutral Good Colette: Chaotic Good Kaeris: Neutral Ironsides: Neutral Lilith: Lawful Evil Pandora: Chaotic Evil Zoraida: Neutral Evil Lynch: Neutral Evil Dreamer: Chaotic Neutral Collodi: Chaotic Evil Viktorias: Chaotic Neutral Von Schill: Lawful Neutral Misaki: Lawful Evil Hamelin: Chaotic Evil Jack Daw: Chaotic Evil Leveticus: Chaotic Evil Shenlong: Lawful Evil Gremlins: Chaotic Neutral (or Chaotic Stupid) And there you have it. Some of the characters could deserve their alignments adjusted more towards true neutral, but that wouldn't have been very informative. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 11 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said: I'd disagree with those characterizations, personally. Malifaux as a setting just doesn't fit into nice neat, or even general tropes of morality. Agreed fully. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 Mei Feng would not be neutral good. Mei Feng is a selfish and cruel woman who only works for each organization she is part of for personal power, and has no trouble lying, kidnapping, blackmailing, torturing and killing anyone if such will further her ends or those of the organizations she ostensibly works for. She was recruited to the TT because of her ambition and brutality, and before joining them she beat two of the Ten Thunder Brothers to bloody pulp, so badly in fact she wondered if they would have taken her in if not for her magical talent. She is rebellious, and unreliable, consistently disobeying orders and willfully misinterpreting them until she was dragged before the Oyabun to explain herself, and when she defied him the beating that he gave her made her understand she didn't respect anyone less personally powerful than herself, the Oyabun included. She fully intends to take over the Ten Thunders when she is able to. When workers on her rail crews get injured she pays for replacement limbs specifically to gain their loyalty, not because it is the right thing to do, but because it personally benefits her. Remember the general forum community's section to the TT story in Shifting Loyalties when Mei gets up to some particularly nasty things. If anything she is, if a DND scale of alignments is being used, at best Neutral Evil, and more probably would be Chaotic Evil. I actually have trouble with most of your assignments, but Mei's was particularly off enough I feel to warrant mentioning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker Barrows Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 9 hours ago, zeeblee said: I think a better way to define what you're aiming for alignment-wise could be, "Which faction best fits a lawful evil aesthetic?" For that I would say: Neverborn, Resurrectionists, and a few Outcasts. Then again, maybe you are looking to play evil for story; in which case you're likely stuck with the "depends" answers both here and above. I have to disagree completely. The Resurrectionists are probably the most chaos-aligned faction after Gremlins. There is no sort of organization among with each necromancer doing their own thing. At least half of the faction is crazy people who hear a voice in their head. Nor do I think the Neverborn could really fit "Lawful Evil" label. Maybe the Nephilim can be considered Lawful, but generally, the Neverborn themselves are described as chaotic. I believe that was the reasoning that Lucius "true nature" couldn't be painted. Outcasts.... well, sure. They're a bit of everything and as I have said individuals don't necessarily follow their "faction's alignment" like Nicodem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
solkan Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 I think we've officially hit the 'can moral atrocities be committed for good' and "D&D alignments vs. Palladium Alignments" part of the discussion as far as handling of people willing to do bad things to accomplish their goals and the ends justifying the means.  2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeeblee Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 25 minutes ago, ABoyNamedSue said: I have to disagree completely. The Resurrectionists are probably the most chaos-aligned faction after Gremlins. There is no sort of organization among with each necromancer doing their own thing. At least half of the faction is crazy people who hear a voice in their head. Nor do I think the Neverborn could really fit "Lawful Evil" label. Maybe the Nephilim can be considered Lawful, but generally, the Neverborn themselves are described as chaotic. I believe that was the reasoning that Lucius "true nature" couldn't be painted. Outcasts.... well, sure. They're a bit of everything and as I have said individuals don't necessarily follow their "faction's alignment" like Nicodem. I was aiming for more aesthetic tropes. Nephilim look like devils, which in DnD are lawful evil (or demons which are chaotic evil). Similarly necromancers are often painted as lawful evil in DnD tropes, and Resurrectionists share the visual theme. Narratively you are absolutely correct that they don't fit. But I've also never actually liked the DnD alignment system. It's always felt too simplified to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker Barrows Posted June 12, 2016 Report Share Posted June 12, 2016 OK. I get that, but I think the poster is looking in-game (then again, I could be totally wrong, in which I retract my post). P.S. Yeah. I the DnD alignments agree it doesn't really fit with Malifaux (or anything outside of DnD). I've just been trying to give the closest answer I could for the poster which leads me to... ChrisNeverborn: I honestly suggest skip "Lawful Evil" faction and go for a "Lawful Evil" Master. Guild has a pretty strong case for the most "Lawful Evil" faction, but three (Lady Justice, Hoffman, and Peridita) are straight up good guys. A fourth (Sonia) is arguable often being presented as a good guy and occasionally a villain. The only straight up villainous Guild Masters are the dual factions Masters ironically (the new Guild Master will likely be a mystery until Ripples of Fate comes out). So, if you want a a certain "alignment" type, I'd suggest going for Masters over Factions. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimitri Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 I play neverborn and i will tell you their alignment according to my opinion. Lilith - nuetral evil. Her minions and whatever else models she use may be chaotic evil but she is like the devil. She is just evil. She doesnt like humans around. She is a hater and a mastermind. Pandora - lowful evil. She is like a pawn of the box. This is the definition of lowful evil in my mind. She is the vessel of the bad feelings that live in the box to mincemeat people. Zoraida - neutral evil. I would say that she is chaotic evil but she is protecting her teriyory and she has alliance with the gremlins. So she rates her evil angenda more than slaying and raping stuff. Her crew again can be chaotic evil. Collodi - lowful evil. He is a former toy. A puppet. He can't live without rules. He thinks hat by engraving kids to puppets he can do his thing. Pretty chaotic for a human. He is not human. For him is like a human taxidermist has an obsession with foxes. He just do his hobby, but his hobby is evil. Jacob Lynch - neutral evil. He is a drug dealer. He is a card shark. He is drunk with power and addicted to it. As a criminal who is not just a thug he is a neutral evil persona. Lucius - lowful evil. How more than lowful evil something can be? His box name is down by law.. The dreamer - trye neutral. He is not evil at all. Except if you were evil when your playmobil were slaying your lego. He does the same. His "toys" are fighting with yours. His toys are evil. In his mind they are just his toys though.. dont judge this kid as an evil kid. The only evil kid is this annoying crooligan you just summon...  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimitri Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 If you want lawful evil masters go for pandora and buy lilith too. They use the same models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dimitri Posted June 17, 2016 Report Share Posted June 17, 2016 If you want lawful evil masters go for pandora and buy lilith too. They use the same models. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomjoad Posted June 21, 2016 Report Share Posted June 21, 2016 I feel like Magic's color pie philosophy is often better to describe characters and factions than the old D&D alignments. I'd characterize the overall factions like this (noting that many different characters can and will differ wildly from the overall faction they're thrown in with): Guild: White/black Ressers: Black Arcanists: Blue/red Neverborn: Green Outcasts: Too varied to say, really, but Black has to be a part of it Gremlins: Red Ten Thunders: Black/white Loooots of Black aligned factions and characters in this universe. Very few unabashed heroes to be found. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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