Collect the Bounty: Does Miasma count?

[Hateful Darkblack]

I had a rules situation come up that I really wasn't sure of!

The Strategy was Collect the Bounty. Ama No Zako put up Miasma of Boils and Flies. It killed two of my models.

Do they count as being killed by the enemy? Or is it the terrain that's doing it and therefore neutral?

(In other words, do Miasma of Boils and Flies count as an owner like an attack, or like Burning or Poison or other neutral forces?)

Thanks!

Ted

[drafterman]

FAQ:

#2 - Killed by Condition? No one counts as having made the kill.

#3 - Killed by an Action? The Crew controlling the Action counts as having made the kill. Killed by an Ability? The model with the Ability counts as having made the kill.

#4 - Killed by falling damage/hazardous terrain? No Crew counts as having made the kill.

In this case, they are taking hazardous terrain damage, so no crew counts as having made the kill.

[drafterman]

18 hours ago, Guslado said:

I've run into the same question with Jaakuna Ubume. We played it where we credited the model who created the aura as making the kill, but this is a compelling argument to me. Would love to see some clarification within the FAQ.

This is clarification from the FAQ. They were killed by hazardous terrain. No model/crew claims credit for the kill. Now, I know you say: "but a model created that hazardous terrain" but that doesn't count. After all, almost all burning/poison conditions are caused by a model's abilities or actions, yet dying to those conditions don't give that model credit (most likely to avoid the nightmare of when they receive burning/poisin from different sources, but I digress).

Point being, they died from hazardous terrain. The FAQ says death from hazardous terrain doesn't count as a kill from any crew or model. That's your clarification within the FAQ.

Likewise, if you have an ability that pushes a model and that model is pushed off of a height and suffers fall damage enough to kill it: no crew or model gets the kill.

[Myyrä]

(0) Miasma of Boils and Flies (Ca 6 / TN: 12): The area within  4 of this model is treated as severe and hazardous terrain by other models until the end  of the Turn.

The ability changes how enemy models interact with the terrain. If it said that enemy models take damage as if they were in severe terrain, then it would be the aura doing the damage.

[Ludvig]

Don't have the card but:

If it's an ability that generates an aura then it counts as the model doing it. I think that is the case here?

If it's an action that generates a marker or that gives the model a condition then it isn't counted as that crew.

[lusciousmccabe]

6 hours ago, drafterman said:

In this case, they are taking hazardous terrain damage, so no crew counts as having made the kill.

I've asked this question before and seen it asked by others. This appears to be the prevailing wisdom.

The rationale is that your action makes the terrain (which is also an aura, confusingly, but don't worry about that) but it's the terrain that causes the damage and that's not part of any crew. 

[Guslado]

7 hours ago, drafterman said:

FAQ:

#2 - Killed by Condition? No one counts as having made the kill.

#3 - Killed by an Action? The Crew controlling the Action counts as having made the kill. Killed by an Ability? The model with the Ability counts as having made the kill.

#4 - Killed by falling damage/hazardous terrain? No Crew counts as having made the kill.

In this case, they are taking hazardous terrain damage, so no crew counts as having made the kill.

I've run into the same question with Jaakuna Ubume. We played it where we credited the model who created the aura as making the kill, but this is a compelling argument to me. Would love to see some clarification within the FAQ.

[Guslado]

2 minutes ago, drafterman said:

This is clarification from the FAQ. They were killed by hazardous terrain. No model/crew claims credit for the kill. Now, I know you say: "but a model created that hazardous terrain" but that doesn't count. After all, almost all burning/poison conditions are caused by a model's abilities or actions, yet dying to those conditions don't give that model credit (most likely to avoid the nightmare of when they receive burning/poisin from different sources, but I digress).

Point being, they died from hazardous terrain. The FAQ says death from hazardous terrain doesn't count as a kill from any crew or model. That's your clarification within the FAQ.

Likewise, if you have an ability that pushes a model and that model is pushed off of a height and suffers fall damage enough to kill it: no crew or model gets the kill.

I completely agree, but in the FAQ it also states that "If a model is killed by an Ability, the model with the Ability counts as having made the kill." This causes some grey area that I would like to see cleared up in the case where an ability of a model creates hazardous terrain; with the Mysterious Emissary's ability to create hazardous terrain markers and Jaakuna becoming more readily available, I see this argument potentially coming up more often and the FAQ doesn't clarify if the damage causes by hazardous terrain being created by a model counts as its ability killing the model.

[drafterman]

2 hours ago, Guslado said:

I completely agree, but in the FAQ it also states that "If a model is killed by an Ability, the model with the Ability counts as having made the kill." This causes some grey area that I would like to see cleared up in the case where an ability of a model creates hazardous terrain; with the Mysterious Emissary's ability to create hazardous terrain markers and Jaakuna becoming more readily available, I see this argument potentially coming up more often and the FAQ doesn't clarify if the damage causes by hazardous terrain being created by a model counts as its ability killing the model.

The ability isn't causing the damage here, the hazardous terrain is. Yes, the hazardous terrain was created by an ability but as I said, burning and poison are created by abilities and those don't allow for kill attribution.

[Guslado]

5 minutes ago, drafterman said:

The ability isn't causing the damage here, the hazardous terrain is. Yes, the hazardous terrain was created by an ability but as I said, burning and poison are created by abilities and those don't allow for kill attribution.

The difference here is that poison and burning are conditions. We already have clarification regarding that and deaths from general hazardous terrain, I would just like to see an FAQ clarification explicitly saying that the damage from hazardous terrain created by an ability is treated the same as hazardous terrain that wasn't created by an ability. I completely agree with what you're saying here, I just want something in the FAQ that enumerates this specific situation so that the argument of "But that hazardous terrain is created by my model's ability, so that model gets credit for it" can be avoided.

[Adran]

4 hours ago, Guslado said:

I completely agree, but in the FAQ it also states that "If a model is killed by an Ability, the model with the Ability counts as having made the kill." This causes some grey area that I would like to see cleared up in the case where an ability of a model creates hazardous terrain; with the Mysterious Emissary's ability to create hazardous terrain markers and Jaakuna becoming more readily available, I see this argument potentially coming up more often and the FAQ doesn't clarify if the damage causes by hazardous terrain being created by a model counts as its ability killing the model.

If the ability made all models around 4 take a 1/2/4 daamge flip, then it would be the ability that killed it. 

It isn't. The ability creates Hazadous terrain. The terrain kills. Thats not being killed by an ability, thats being killed by hazardous terrain

Sebastians ability which changes poison damage does not kill an enemy model, it is still killed by the poison condition. (and that one is in the FAQ).

 

[solkan]

2 hours ago, Guslado said:

The difference here is that poison and burning are conditions. We already have clarification regarding that and deaths from general hazardous terrain, I would just like to see an FAQ clarification explicitly saying that the damage from hazardous terrain created by an ability is treated the same as hazardous terrain that wasn't created by an ability. I completely agree with what you're saying here, I just want something in the FAQ that enumerates this specific situation so that the argument of "But that hazardous terrain is created by my model's ability, so that model gets credit for it" can be avoided.

Do have the same doubt concerning the following scenario:

- An element of hazardous terrain exists on the board.

- Model X performs an action which causes Model B to enter the hazardous terrain.

- Model B is killed by the damage inflicted by the hazardous terrain.

Does X get credit for killing B because it caused the B to move?

 

 

[lusciousmccabe]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

Sebastians ability which changes poison damage does not kill an enemy model, it is still killed by the poison condition. (and that one is in the FAQ).

That one's in the text for the ability.  

I can totally see Guslado's point. It would be nice to see this covered in the FAQ, I have no idea why multiple overlapping hazardous terrain pieces got in before it.

2 hours ago, solkan said:

Do have the same doubt concerning the following scenario:

- An element of hazardous terrain exists on the board.

- Model X performs an action which causes Model B to enter the hazardous terrain.

- Model B is killed by the damage inflicted by the hazardous terrain.

Does X get credit for killing B because it caused the B to move?

You can't really make this kind of generalisation in Malifaux. If I obey you to charge and you attack then the obey made you attack, but if I obey you to attack and you kill a model the obey didn't kill the model. So you need something to confirm that the intervening step breaks the chain of consequence in this particular situation, rather than extrapolating from a different one.   

I imagine the FAQ entry for this (if there ever is one) will say the terrain causes the kill and no-one else can claim it, but I wouldn't be shocked if it said the opposite. There is enough ambiguity there to justify an entry in the FAQ, certainly more than some of the stuff that is already in there. 

[Adran]

And this one is written in the FAQ. 

4) Q: If a model is killed by falling damage or hazardous terrain, which Crew counts as having made the
kill?
A: No model or Crew counts as having made the kill

And if we need the question then don't we need to answer the question that each condition created by an ability doesn't count. Sorry, this one is already completely answered to me, with no alternative.

[MrDeathTrout]

17 hours ago, Adran said:

And this one is written in the FAQ. 

4) Q: If a model is killed by falling damage or hazardous terrain, which Crew counts as having made the
kill?
A: No model or Crew counts as having made the kill

And if we need the question then don't we need to answer the question that each condition created by an ability doesn't count. Sorry, this one is already completely answered to me, with no alternative.

I agree with Adran.  If a model is killed by hazardous terrain or falling it does not count as being killed by any crew or model regardless of the source.  I think that is clear based on that FAQ.

I can see why someone would want clarification that if an ability (which does give a model credit for the kill) generated the falling or hazardous terrain, but I don't see a need for it unless the answer contradicts the existing FAQ entry.

[drafterman]

On 6/8/2016 at 0:50 PM, Guslado said:

The difference here is that poison and burning are conditions. We already have clarification regarding that and deaths from general hazardous terrain, I would just like to see an FAQ clarification explicitly saying that the damage from hazardous terrain created by an ability is treated the same as hazardous terrain that wasn't created by an ability. I completely agree with what you're saying here, I just want something in the FAQ that enumerates this specific situation so that the argument of "But that hazardous terrain is created by my model's ability, so that model gets credit for it" can be avoided.

It doesn't matter that they are conditions. If damage from burning/poison doesn't count, even when that burning/poison is caused by an ability, then damage from hazardous terrain/falling doesn't count, even when that hazardous terrain/fall is caused by an ability.

The damage didn't come from an ability. The ability didn't kill the model.