My Competitive Zoraida Build

[Wifstrand]

I really enjoy reading this thread. I want to try my hand at Zoraida (I'm pretty new), but I'm having a hard time putting together a rough list.

 

Zoraida

+Crystal Ball

+ Tarot Reading

Bad Juju

+ Eternal Fiend

Bayou Gator

Bayou Gator

Doppelganger

McTavish

+ Hexed Among You

Silurid

 

How's that look? The plan is to just take the hit and summon a voodoo doll instead of paying for it, and I want to really make Bad Juju last by maximizing the use of Eternal Fiend. I really wanted a Waldgeist in there, and I'd love some more Soulstones... But I can't really fit in. Thoughts? Tips?

[goth]

This is most likely what I'm running next game:

 

Zoraida

   + hexed among you

   + tarot reading

Bayou gator

Bayou gator

Bayou gator

Bad Juju

  + Eternal Fiend

Rooster Rider

Tuco

Convict Gunslinger

 

I might skip the Convict Gunslinger for Johanna or Widow Weaver.

 

I think the trick might be to activate the gators last in the first turn and activate them first in the second turn.

I'd honestly throw a fourth one in there if it could forward deploy - so good.

[TeddyBear]

Could ask you which lists is better  between those (more competitve)??

 

Zoraida -- 5 ss Cache

+ Hex Bag - 1ss

+ Tarot Reading - 2ss

Bad Juju - 8ss

+ Eternal Fiend - 2ss

+Fears given Form - 1ss

Gupps - 4ss

Gupps - 4ss

Gupps - 4ss

Wild Boar - 6ss

Iggy - 5ss

McTavish - 10ss

 

 

Zoraida -- 4 ss Cache

+ Hex Bag - 1ss

+ Tarot Reading - 2ss

+ Crystal Ball - 2 ss

Bad Juju - 8ss

+ Eternal Fiend - 2ss

+Fears given Form - 1ss

Gupps - 4ss

Spawn Mother - 9ss

Wild Boar - 6ss

Iggy - 5ss

McTavish - 10 ss

[goth]

I've been thinking, forward deployed Bad Juju makes excellent scheme scoring for the opponent... Not like they won't see it coming, and just decide on A Quick Murder, Set Up, Public Demonstration...

Edit: not forward deployed, but you know, Eternal Fiend/Bad Jujoy style placement turn 2 or 3 (or 1).

[Ludvig]

@TeddyBear

That depends so much on the strategy and schemes. List no 2 might be capable of doing turf war + hunting party as well as denying hunting party decently (the boar is a liabilty).

List no 1 would probably do a lot better in a interact-heavy pool with less killing needed (like distract, cursed object, detonate the charges etc)

I find it hard to do generally competitive lists unless you are a summoner.

[Ludvig]

6 minutes ago, GOTH said:

I've been thinking, forward deployed Bad Juju makes excellent scheme scoring for the opponent... Not like they won't see it coming, and just decide on A Quick Murder, Set Up, Public Demonstration...

Edit: not forward deployed, but you know, Eternal Fiend/Bad Jujoy style placement turn 2 or 3 (or 1).

Juju MAY deploy, just saying  

As for a quick murder Juju isn't killed or sacrificed but buried instead so still wouldn't be a very easy target.

[Mikeymajq]

Wait, is zoraida bad? (I'm new to the game) ;__;

[HegemonyKrcket]

On 6/30/2016 at 4:29 PM, HegemonyKrcket said:

Zoraida (Neverborn)
-Hex Bag
-On Wings of Darkness
-Tarot Reading

Bad Juju
-Eternal Fiend
-Fears Given Form

Doppelganger

Gupps

McTavish

Wildboar
Wildboar

My basic plan is to start with Juju buried and the Wildboars up field (dueto From the Shadows) and then charge them into the opponent and cause as much havoc as possible.  That forces the opponent to either let the boars run wild or kill one and unbury Juju near them.  Meanwhile, Gupps and Doppelganger are running schemes while Zoraida and McTavish support whoever they need to however they can.

I just finished a Tournament were I ran this list for the first match and didn't do very well.  I was playing against Perdita and it was Flank Deployment (which infamously sucks), so I ended up getting killed off pretty quickly.  It was a game where both sides played pretty haphazardly so we ended up being 3 to 5.

Game 2 I swapped out the Boars for Waldgiest, Tarot Reading for Crystal Ball, and Deployed Juju on the table.  I did considerably better this time as all I really had to do was annoy my opponent with Juju and the Waldgeist while McTavish picked models off as the Gupps and Doppelganger got me Convict Labor.  It ended up being 9 v 3.

Game 3 I rant the same list and played the same.  After locking down Convict Labor I the through the Gupps in the middle of my opponents markers to deny them Convict Labor and then draw the attention of a Henchmen, get killed, and score Frame for Murder (at 2 VP because it was Turn 4).  But ended up 8 v 0.

With Z I found that I didn't really use Hex Bag that much in the two games I won.  If something was in range I gave it a shot, but didn't work too hard at it.  Because of that, I could see ditching it.  I also didn't summon the Voodoo Doll once during game 2 or 3, but I did in game 1 and it didn't do anything useful.  It failed to Hem in and got one shotted by Perdita immediately after.  

Because of this I'm considering dropping Hex Bag and taking Primordial Magic.  It helps me cycle cards, can insignificant scheme runners, and can sure up convict labor in an emergency.

But the list I was happy with was as follows:

Zoraida (Neverborn) Cache 6
-Hex Bag
-Crystal Ball
-Wings of Darkness

Bad Juju
-Eternal Fiend
-Fears Given Form

McTavish (Merc)

Doppelganger

Waldgeist
Waldgeist
Gupps

[Durza]

13 hours ago, Mikeymajq said:

Wait, is zoraida bad? (I'm new to the game) ;__;

No, she's maybe a bit lower on the power scale than some of the other neverborn masters but she is still perfectly viable. 

[Joel]

On 01/07/2016 at 0:07 AM, Vorschlag said:

I would drop the doppleganger, while she's a lovely model with some nice abilities personally I find she doesnt make back her stones in either vp or kills.
This could be because she tends to paint a bullseye on her own head in my local meta or it could be that I'm just using her incorrectly.

I personally find Waldgiest very hard to exclude when using McTavish with Zoraida and if I wasn't including a nurse I'd be inclined to include a gator to paralyze atleast one model per turn from doll abuse.

of course sacrificial gupps for juju and boars to rage over could also be particularly useful.

 

I couldnt disagree more.  Doppleganger is one of the top neverborn models for a reason.  initiative flip tricks, don't mind me and mimic are all amazing to play with and make for a nasty package.

[Vorschlag]

I'm not disputing the potential usefulness of a doppleganger, I simply don't find regular use for one with Zoraida.

[feagaur]

On ‎10‎/‎07‎/‎2016 at 3:24 AM, HegemonyKrcket said:

I just finished a Tournament were I ran this list for the first match and didn't do very well.  I was playing against Perdita and it was Flank Deployment (which infamously sucks), so I ended up getting killed off pretty quickly.  It was a game where both sides played pretty haphazardly so we ended up being 3 to 5.

Game 2 I swapped out the Boars for Waldgiest, Tarot Reading for Crystal Ball, and Deployed Juju on the table.  I did considerably better this time as all I really had to do was annoy my opponent with Juju and the Waldgeist while McTavish picked models off as the Gupps and Doppelganger got me Convict Labor.  It ended up being 9 v 3.

Game 3 I rant the same list and played the same.  After locking down Convict Labor I the through the Gupps in the middle of my opponents markers to deny them Convict Labor and then draw the attention of a Henchmen, get killed, and score Frame for Murder (at 2 VP because it was Turn 4).  But ended up 8 v 0.

With Z I found that I didn't really use Hex Bag that much in the two games I won.  If something was in range I gave it a shot, but didn't work too hard at it.  Because of that, I could see ditching it.  I also didn't summon the Voodoo Doll once during game 2 or 3, but I did in game 1 and it didn't do anything useful.  It failed to Hem in and got one shotted by Perdita immediately after.  

Because of this I'm considering dropping Hex Bag and taking Primordial Magic.  It helps me cycle cards, can insignificant scheme runners, and can sure up convict labor in an emergency.

But the list I was happy with was as follows:

Zoraida (Neverborn) Cache 6
-Hex Bag
-Crystal Ball
-Wings of Darkness

Bad Juju
-Eternal Fiend
-Fears Given Form

McTavish (Merc)

Doppelganger

Waldgeist
Waldgeist
Gupps

If you're not doing so well with Hex bag have you thought of replacing it with Tarot Reading. It would mean you save a SS on McTavish and would give you the option to move scheme markers.

To be honest its usually the only upgrade I take on Zoraida. I usually put upgrades on my other models.

[HegemonyKrcket]

So I've been testing my above list against more aggressive lists and I'm finding that it doesn't have the killing power that I need.  With that in mind I have two thoughts.

Iggy to combo with Voodoo Doll to stack Burning and "Can't use stones" to drop whatever I need to.

--and/or--

Nurse to give Waldgeists and/or Bad Juju a +2 Dmg on ML, as I found their 2 min to be garbage.  LOL.

[HegemonyKrcket]

On 7/12/2016 at 6:26 AM, feagaur said:

If you're not doing so well with Hex bag have you thought of replacing it with Tarot Reading. It would mean you save a SS on McTavish and would give you the option to move scheme markers.

To be honest its usually the only upgrade I take on Zoraida. I usually put upgrades on my other models.

Because Tarot Reading is garbage.  2 AP, extra suit, and all I can do is MOVE scheme markers w/in 4"?  1 AP to heal my voodoo doll is okay, but chances are he's going to die in one hit.  And if I'm not taking 2+ swampfiends then I'd rather take the Merc hit and use that slot for Crystal Ball or Wings of Darkness.

Soon enough I'm going to start proxying 1 or 2 Will-o-wisps, but that means I have to squeeze out some points from somewhere.  I really like McTavish but 11 SS is a lot of investment.

[orkdork]

Wisps change Mama Z dramatically.

1. Voodoo becomes an every turn thing

2. Bewitch/Obey become every turn things

3. Spawn Mother becomes an amazing piece

 

I think Iggy + McTavish + Doppel + Lilitu + Spawn Mother + 2 Wisps is going to be very hard to beat. I have only one turn with the list so far, but it was immediately obvious how powerful it is. My two lists for the foreseeable future:

Competition build:

Zoraida

McTavish

Doppelganger

Iggy

Lilitu (can paralyze doll)

Spawn Mother

2 Wisps

5 SS of 'flex'

 

Casual Build:

Zoraida

Bad Juju, Eternal Fiend, Hexed Among You

Spawn Mother

3 Waldgeists

Bayou Gator (can paralyze doll)

2 Wisps

 

Note: the competition build is still meant to be my "kill stuff on boards with long sight lanes" build. I have other masters for boards with blocking terrain.

[feagaur]

On ‎15‎/‎08‎/‎2016 at 11:09 PM, HegemonyKrcket said:

Because Tarot Reading is garbage.  2 AP, extra suit, and all I can do is MOVE scheme markers w/in 4"?  1 AP to heal my voodoo doll is okay, but chances are he's going to die in one hit.  And if I'm not taking 2+ swampfiends then I'd rather take the Merc hit and use that slot for Crystal Ball or Wings of Darkness.

Soon enough I'm going to start proxying 1 or 2 Will-o-wisps, but that means I have to squeeze out some points from somewhere.  I really like McTavish but 11 SS is a lot of investment.

I wouldn't say Tarot Reading is garbage, I would say its situational. I wouldn't take it with all my Zoraida builds, but almost all of my swampfiend ones I do.  Being able to save a SS on McTavish is half of the cost of the upgrade but also allows you to bring in other swampfiends such as wild boars or gators in Neverborn. Until the Wisps come out the 1AP heal of the voodoo doll is saving an AP from having to re-summon the doll. And the scheme marker move can be devastating to an opponent. It will stop Convict Labour straight off. It can move the scheme markers out of 4" for setup. It could cripple detonate the charges. Again situational but all of Zoraidas upgrades are situational.

If you think about it, Hex gab gives you attacks to use on the doll. But that means you're using Zoraida's AP to damage something through the doll when there are enough models out there that will do it better.

Animal shape gives Zoraida lots of movement and means of escape, but I very rarely move her more than once or twice in an entire game. And anything that wants to get close will be having to go through the rest of my crew. Admittedly there are crews that will do that quite easily, but that just makes this upgrade useful against those crews.

I would say Crystal ball is the only upgrade that's worth taking every time. In my opinion Crystal Ball also makes 'On Wings of Darkness' defunct. As I said, for me ( and other may be different) Zoraida rarely moves so has no real use for flight. And she has so much card draw potential that getting an extra card when using a SS is a little Meh.

But like I said, this is my opinion. Others might prefer something different. I mean, I usually take a nurse rather than Iggy just so she can aid the rest of the crew too.

[orkdork]

On 8/17/2016 at 8:30 AM, feagaur said:

I would say Crystal ball is the only upgrade that's worth taking every time. In my opinion Crystal Ball also makes 'On Wings of Darkness' defunct. As I said, for me ( and other may be different) Zoraida rarely moves so has no real use for flight. And she has so much card draw potential that getting an extra card when using a SS is a little Meh.

But like I said, this is my opinion. Others might prefer something different. I mean, I usually take a nurse rather than Iggy just so she can aid the rest of the crew too.

Just a comment: I don't think card draw has diminishing returns in Malifaux until you're drawing far more than is reasonable, and I think there even may be a mathematical case to be made for card draw having increasing returns at the scale we're talking about. I think there are competing phenomena here, one being how additional "guaranteed" duels can compound in efficacy (arguing for increasing returns), another that there are a limited number of duels in a turn (arguing for diminishing returns). I feel pretty confident that you're a long way from diminishing returns with Wings + Crystal Ball + Bewitch. (I haven't done the math, and it's very complex math, as it varies on number of opposed duels, simple duels, suit requirements, and opposing hand strength).

As far as Nurse vs. Iggy, both are great. Obviously, Iggy puts more kill-pressure on the enemy team, while a nurse has a ton more team utility. My above list is intended to be a ranged kill-pressure team, thus Iggy is the clear choice. I'm working on a less combat-oriented Zoraida crew which may prefer a nurse. Not sure yet.

[MetaphoricDragn]

1 hour ago, orkdork said:

 

As far as Nurse vs. Iggy, both are great. Obviously, Iggy puts more kill-pressure on the enemy team, while a nurse has a ton more team utility. My above list is intended to be a ranged kill-pressure team, thus Iggy is the clear choice. I'm working on a less combat-oriented Zoraida crew which may prefer a nurse. Not sure yet.

After these threads, the debate i'm having is Nurse vs Lilitu

[orkdork]

Lilitu + Doppel is really, really good. 5 Ca7 lures can completely change the dynamic of a game, and it really only costs you 7 SS to have that option, since Doppel is such an auto-take in competitive play.

Lilitu edges out nurses in my Zoraida lists, but I don't think anyone should see a nurse as sub-optimal. A nurse is nearly always what I'd add if I just had 6 more SS

One other consideration: I suspect that Spawn Mother + 1-2 wisps is an auto-include for Zoraida, which adds contention for medium (lay egg), conflicting with the nurse. Meanwhile, Lilitu can paralyze the doll with a . But if you need the heal for Zoraida, a nurse is super efficient.

I guess I should also add that Doppel and Iggy compete for , so it's not like the nurse is worse than him in terms of suit overlap.

[feagaur]

I tried something of a 'lure-tastic' build once.

took Zoraida, Lelu, lilitu, Doppleganger, Hannah the nurse a couple of tots and some upgrades.

ran it twice. It tabled a Neverborn Lynch crew but lost to a Seamus crew. Was definitely fun to play though. Min damage 3 or 4 on pounces with all the lures going on (using the nurse) was great.

[lusciousmccabe]

9 hours ago, orkdork said:

Doppel is such an auto-take in competitive play.

I would say that depends on your list. Doppelganger is versatile and cheap enough to bequite good in most lists, but it only becomes a must have when you're leaning pretty heavily on certain models and need to guarantee initiative and/or get more use out of their actions.

[orkdork]

On August 19, 2016 at 0:41 AM, lusciousmccabe said:

I would say that depends on your list. Doppelganger is versatile and cheap enough to bequite good in most lists, but it only becomes a must have when you're leaning pretty heavily on certain models and need to guarantee initiative and/or get more use out of their actions.

I don't know of any tier 1 NBorn list that fits your description (not saying they don't exist). I do have a tier 2 list I use in tournaments for its ease of play (goes well with beer and the last round of the day :p) that doesn't need the Doppelgänger, because the key actions come from juju and Lilith, but she still makes the cut as a great scheme runner and initiative cheater. If I really need the extra Silurid, I drop her. Rare, tho.

[HegemonyKrcket]

On 8/17/2016 at 10:30 AM, feagaur said:

I wouldn't say Tarot Reading is garbage, I would say its situational. I wouldn't take it with all my Zoraida builds, but almost all of my swampfiend ones I do.  Being able to save a SS on McTavish is half of the cost of the upgrade but also allows you to bring in other swampfiends such as wild boars or gators in Neverborn. Until the Wisps come out the 1AP heal of the voodoo doll is saving an AP from having to re-summon the doll. And the scheme marker move can be devastating to an opponent. It will stop Convict Labour straight off. It can move the scheme markers out of 4" for setup. It could cripple detonate the charges. Again situational but all of Zoraidas upgrades are situational.

If you think about it, Hex gab gives you attacks to use on the doll. But that means you're using Zoraida's AP to damage something through the doll when there are enough models out there that will do it better.

Animal shape gives Zoraida lots of movement and means of escape, but I very rarely move her more than once or twice in an entire game. And anything that wants to get close will be having to go through the rest of my crew. Admittedly there are crews that will do that quite easily, but that just makes this upgrade useful against those crews.

I would say Crystal ball is the only upgrade that's worth taking every time. In my opinion Crystal Ball also makes 'On Wings of Darkness' defunct. As I said, for me ( and other may be different) Zoraida rarely moves so has no real use for flight. And she has so much card draw potential that getting an extra card when using a SS is a little Meh.

But like I said, this is my opinion. Others might prefer something different. I mean, I usually take a nurse rather than Iggy just so she can aid the rest of the crew too.

Winds of Fate is too expensive for me to worry about.  2 AP and a .  And it means Zoraida is in a dangerous position.  Willowisps might make it worth while because if they die I'm not worried.  And they can move and do it in the same Turn.  I can just have models near their Markers, or have Mctavish/Boars eat them.  I don't know how to use the Boars too well, but I always regret taking them.  And as much as I like the look of the Gators I don't know what I'm supposed to do with them.  I'm paying the 1 SS for McTavish so I can have all 3 the upgrade slots.  It sucks, but it's been worth it so far.

Hex is a (0) which she has literally no other (0), so it's not losing any AP.  Additionally, it's best use is the built in "No Soulstones" which can effect masters and set up for a kill.  It's also good on VD to setup a Henchmen.  I'm going to do the actual damage with another model.  Hex Bag is an auto take for me.

Animal Shape is also too expensive at 2 Stones and 2 AP.  Wings of Darkness makes it obsolete.

Crystal Ball and Wings of Darkness are really, really good together.  Starting the turn with better cards allows me to either look at my opponents hand or discard a card for free.  Takes no AP.  It's also a must have for me, but I also choose the wrong option all the time.

I'm experimenting with working in a Nurse and/or Iggy again.  Once She comes in I'm going to start trying Spawn Mother and proxying Wisps.  We'll see what happens.
 

[brdparker]

I'm looking at the new toys she's gotten. My Zoraida background is almost entirely played in neverborn with a swampfiend list, coming from the Marcus side of things (though I have an as-yet unused Weaver). Might start playing her as a grem soon with the new toys.

There's been a lot of talk about the Wisp (and I'm excited to get it to the table), but I'm really digging the versatility of the First Mate. First glance has him leaping around and just picking off anyone that's dying, but I feel like he's most effective as a scheme runner eater. He can push them away/swallow them whole (many schemers are Ht 1), and then eat the SM giving you even more card control (and armor if played in Grem's with the upgrade). Because I enjoy running Sue in my Z lists (Finish the Job goes rather well with Gupps, and Hurt gives me extra card control), the trigger on FtJ can have the Mate discard 2 or 3 SM's in a shot for a few cards drawn and discarded in a shot (depending on scheme pool). Not to mention, an extra Slow/Paralyze Henchman in the crew is a serious boon. Anyone else see anything good with the guy?

[Twg]

is the First Mate dual faction?