Can anyone explain the lack of TT players?

[winterblade27]

Wow, thanks for the answers, I never expected so many! 

They all make for some interesting reading for sure, it's interesting to hear the debate between low cost models, activations and the general competitiveness of the faction vs other factions!

 

[SinJ]

In general I think that Ten Thunders is also very aesthetically hit or miss. Most of the other factions have sectors of very different looking models with an overall unifying theme. As previously mentioned Ten Thunders is more of an "answers" faction as we have a lot of models that greatly assist with entire factions as a whole. I think this is pretty valuable as another faction can't really do that vs you should you announce Thunders.

[Rathnard]

I think alot of players, especially early on in M2E, have assumed that our Dual-faction Masters are better in the non-Ten Thunders faction. Brewie (for Trixibelle) and Mei Feng (for all the constructs) in particular, but also Misaki and Lynch to lesser extents and for their own reasons. The possible exceptions are McCabe for the better minions 10-T has, and Yan Lo, whom many assume is only slightly less unplayable in 10-T.  I don't think that's true anymore with the current state of M2E, but it hasn't entirely killed the perception so when people have picked these Masters up, they've generally played them as a non-10-T Faction.

 

The other thing that drives people away from 10-T is the buy-in. Sure, you technically only need the crew box to play a given Master, but alot of the "must haves" for the faction are found in other crew boxes. Illuminated, Kang, Rail Workers, Chiaki and Sensei Yu are all great staples for many crews, but all come in a crew box with their respective Masters. So if you want to play the 10-Thunders "seriously" (and I use that in the loosest sense...because this is a game after all!  ), you invariably end up having to buy crews for every Master anyway. 

 

Finally, there's the "theme" problem. With every Master essentially coming from a different Factions you've got a very diverse set of aesthetics between crews. From genuine Asian-influenced warriors to undead, drug addicted monsters, mechanized construction workers and western-influenced cowboys. Consider that a good 10-T crew often draws form several of these themes and you tend to end up with a very eclectic set of models for your average crew. For some people, I think that's a turn off. Some people would prefer their crews to look like they actually follow a common theme. And so for them, Factions with a more consistent aesthetic (ie. every other faction besides 10-T!) would be more appealing. 

 

I suppose there's also a game-play element in there. We don't usually have the outright killing power of other factions and we tend to rely more on toolbox models and synergies, which is harder to appreciate than (eg.) summoning or just direct damage. But when it comes down to it, I think it's mostly because of the reasons I gave above.  

[Yvarre]

1 hour ago, Rathnard said:

Finally, there's the "theme" problem. With every Master essentially coming from a different Factions you've got a very diverse set of aesthetics between crews. From genuine Asian-influenced warriors to undead, drug addicted monsters, mechanized construction workers and western-influenced cowboys. Consider that a good 10-T crew often draws form several of these themes and you tend to end up with a very eclectic set of models for your average crew. For some people, I think that's a turn off. Some people would prefer their crews to look like they actually follow a common theme. And so for them, Factions with a more consistent aesthetic (ie. every other faction besides 10-T!) would be more appealing.

This is definitely one of the things that drew me to the faction most.  We pull together such disparate elements to do the jobs we need doing, calling in favors, squeezing contacts, etc...  Then the story that you can start to make in your head gets more interesting-  Why is this heavily armored man with a Gatling gun fighting side by side with this glowy-eyed humanoid with alternating insect parts and tentacles pulsing from its body?  Why is this skin-changing bruiser of a Nephilim showing this dainty, little flute player going super Sayan the door?

While Outcasts are flavored as the unique riffraff outside of the conventions of society, we Thunders really take the cake in being the true weirdos of Malifaux, and, as a player looking for the oddball and the rogue in the games I play, the mix and match buffet that the Thunders offer provides that unique twist my opponent might not be expecting.  Sure it can get rough when all of my base themes clash when the painting judges come around and look at my crew, but them's the breaks when I want 1/4", 1/2", and 3/4" ratchets in my toolbox for the option of taking on different tasks with the right tools.

[Victoria]

For me, I just don't care for the aesthetic of the models much.  I own plenty of TT crews, but I've rarely ever played them as TT, and don't own a lot of TT support models.

[InvokeChaos]

I'm the only ten thunders player in my meta, small though it be, and I find that thematics are a huge reason.

This game seems to, more than others I've played, really hit people on an aesthetics level. Both in the artistry of the models and in the artistry of their capabilities. There is a lack of cohesion in both the mechanics and the design of ten thunders. Which personally is why I love them.

That and flippin' ninjas, samurai and oni... oh my!

[Rurouni Benshin]

 

23 hours ago, Rathnard said:

Finally, there's the "theme" problem. With every Master essentially coming from a different Factions you've got a very diverse set of aesthetics between crews. From genuine Asian-influenced warriors to undead, drug addicted monsters, mechanized construction workers and western-influenced cowboys. Consider that a good 10-T crew often draws form several of these themes and you tend to end up with a very eclectic set of models for your average crew. For some people, I think that's a turn off. Some people would prefer their crews to look like they actually follow a common theme. And so for them, Factions with a more consistent aesthetic (ie. every other faction besides 10-T!) would be more appealing.

That's an interesting take on that, because I actually felt that there wasn't any real "theme" problem with the faction.  I suppose the themes vary from Master to Master, but with each Master, comes their own unique "theme", in that sense.  Misaki has her "Last Blossom", Mei Feng her "Foundry", Yan Lo his "Ancestors", etc.  And while each Master has a collective interest in the Ten Thunders on a whole, they each have their own unique agendas, with the exception of Shenlong.  And how fitting is it that the ONLY sole faction Master within Ten Thunders is himself a Tyrant? 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that popularity amongst each faction is going to vary from meta to meta.  As I said earlier, I'm the only TT player in my local meta, with a few other people who happen to have a few, but play them in their cross factions respectively (2 Lynch players and 1 McCabe player).  I think given time, the popularity amongst them will grow though.

[Rathnard]

1 hour ago, Rurouni Benshin said:

 

That's an interesting take on that, because I actually felt that there wasn't any real "theme" problem with the faction.  I suppose the themes vary from Master to Master, but with each Master, comes their own unique "theme", in that sense.  Misaki has her "Last Blossom", Mei Feng her "Foundry", Yan Lo his "Ancestors", etc. 

That's just my point though. Misaki might have her "Last Blossom" theme, but when I build a crew for her I'm usually drawing models from the other Masters themes too - Yin from Yan Lo, a Wastrel from McCabe, etc etc. The end result is a crew with multiple themes that kind of clash with each other. For me I'm not bothered by it (I started playing Malifaux with Zoraida - a Master who regularly hired models from multiple factions anyway ). But based on my observations and interactions with other players over the years, it's certainly a negative for some. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

That's the deal breaker for me and the reason I personally very much dislike the TT as a faction.

[MR TORGUE]

On 24/05/2016 at 3:11 AM, winterblade27 said:

As the title says!

Rule 1 of Ten Thunders Club; You Do Not Talk about Ten Thunders Club. 

Like the fluff usually states Ten Thunders agents wear masks so noone knows they work for the ten thunders triad - Prob about 50% of the people you played against there were undercover; bet if you checked outside in the smoking area there were tons of dead pigeons hit with Kunai - Or, dead give-away, some of them disappeared when the tournament was over in a puff of smoke... 

[Paradigm]

I've been playing mostly Lynch and Shenlong lately, and it's easy to get a good number of activations on both of them given their basically free totems. I typically get two big models, usually Shadow Emissary and Kang/Graves/Izamu. Then I get a couple of the good but expensive minions, like Snipers and Illuminated. To get model count up while still picking up more good models, I almost always get Shadow Effigy for a competent and surprisingly good scheme runner at 4ss and a Brother for an absolutely amazing scheme runner/tar pit at 5ss. I've had Brothers reliably tanking two whole activations from half the enemy crew without getting hit. People tend to really underestimate Df7 with one or two positive flips. It took me while to see it, but I actually think Ten Thunders has great model choices across the entire cost range, while also having extraordinarliy good minions. That last part also makes a strong case for TT McCabe. I get the feeling Jorogumo will be really scary with him.

[Tawg]

On 5/24/2016 at 10:49 AM, Icemyn said:

You also have to consider that TT masters tend to have very little overlap regarding crew builds. 

Isn't that almost entirely true of Arcanist?

Between 10T and Arcanist, I consider the Arcanist to be so hyper focused on their "in theme" (Frozen Hearts, Showgirls, Beast, ect.) that they often feel like you would never want to take overlap between their masters.

Meanwhile, the 10T have a handful of models which are sometimes considered gross enough to toss in any list.  Need more staying power, toss in an Illuminated.  Want (arguably) the grosses Henchman in the game?  Throw a Sensei Yu at it!  Plus, Thunder Bros are amazing.

Granted, I am no competitive player, so far be it for me to question you.  If you told me any of those models I listed aren't good to take in general?  Then maybe I have no idea what's going on.

But at the very least, not being the most try-hard competitive player I can, 10T feel solid.  I seldom end up feeling like I've taking a poor list to any match I play.  Granted, I don't play as frequently as I might like, so it may be my chosen opponents (The few friends I have that I play, quite infrequently).

[Skitt_Happens]

3 hours ago, Paradigm said:

...TT McCabe. I get the feeling Jorogumo will be really scary with him.

Tried it. It is. Opponent focused her turn one, reducing her to 1 wound. "Come here, Piggy! Om-nom-nom." Opponent focused her again turn 2 and killed her. Totally worth it to make the majority of my opponents crew spend 2 turns to get rid of a 9 stone minion. 

[Icemyn]

7 hours ago, Tawg said:

Isn't that almost entirely true of Arcanist?

Rather than argue the point, as you are not wrong if you wanted to rate the factions I would say Arcanists were next worse, I'll just say that pointing out a similarly sized fire does nothing to put out the current one.

[D_Arquebus]

On 26/05/2016 at 1:09 AM, Rathnard said:

That's just my point though. Misaki might have her "Last Blossom" theme, but when I build a crew for her I'm usually drawing models from the other Masters themes too - Yin from Yan Lo, a Wastrel from McCabe, etc etc. The end result is a crew with multiple themes that kind of clash with each other. For me I'm not bothered by it (I started playing Malifaux with Zoraida - a Master who regularly hired models from multiple factions anyway ). But based on my observations and interactions with other players over the years, it's certainly a negative for some. 

This.

I really like the theme of the individual TT masters but not the overall "Faction Theme" that ties them and their minions together in the same crews.

The opposite to the Arcanists really, where i love the theme of the rebellious Witches and Underground fighting the Guild oppression but with the exception of 1/2 crew/s (Collette and Mei Feng) dont enjoy the individual Master themes as much.

Probably end up with all the TT masters except possibly Shenlong, but use them within their Dual Faction instead. Not for 'power', but to maintain the aesthetic appeal for myself.

Cheers

[Tawg]

5 hours ago, Icemyn said:

Rather than argue the point, as you are not wrong if you wanted to rate the factions I would say Arcanists were next worse, I'll just say that pointing out a similarly sized fire does nothing to put out the current one.

Oh, really?  I honestly would place Arcanist above 10T.

But really that's odd.  I mean, besides a focused Ancestors list for Yan Lo, I feel like there are certainly staple models the 10T like to bring.

I mean really, a lot of the factions have fairly diverse list needs.  What would you declare as the most homogeneous faction as far as over-lapping lists goes?  I only ask because you point out "similar sized fires", but honestly, I hope there is not such a tournament scene where someone declaring a faction means you know at least half their list because it's the "go to" for that faction.  But again, I don't play competitive, so I wouldn't know if that is a thing, it would just break my heart to hear there are such "cookie cutter" style options that trump the rest.

I can see how it may be unappealing to have to "buy in" to multiple diverse crews, but consider factions like Ressers or Arcanist who summon.  I don't feel like the fact that you want to "buy available summons" being too big of a draw back for them, is that really so different?

[InvokeChaos]

I would say it's not necessarily lack of diversity in relation to the concept of specific models that always show up. It's more that in arcanists you have like 3-4 themes... spellcasters, beasts, showgirls and the foundry.  that's a lot of themes.  In rezzers you have like 2... undead or spirits. Neverborn its nightmare creatures or swamp/earth creatures. Etc.  There's a lot more cohesion thematically to the themes of appearance and concept.

Then you get to 10T: ninjas, dragons, oni, foundry, drunk goblins, monks, nightmare creatures, undead, spirits, showgirls, beasts, foundry...

I'm not being particularly nitpicky or consistent here, but I think it illustrates the point.  While there is an underlying asian them across several of the models and a couple of the boxes, it's not huge. Because the asian themes are almost subtyped to the other concepts. Railworkers look asian, but their foundry railworkers first. And that's where they lie thematically.

So when you sit down with a McCabe or Lynch crew... both of which are their own thing once again, you could have everything from an undead spirit samurai warrior to a junkie possessed by a demon to an ascetic monk, to mechanical dogs. 

I personally LOVE that aspect. All these conflicting appearances and thematics that collide into this collection of underlings dancing to the same fife. But as others above me have noted, it creates a disconnect aesthetically that a bunch of people don't like either.

[Skitt_Happens]

10 hours ago, Tawg said:

... I hope there is not such a tournament scene where someone declaring a faction means you know at least half their list because it's the "go to" for that faction. ...

Guild: Francisco w/ Wade In and 2 Austringers. 21ss spent by declaring faction.

[Eclipse]

23 hours ago, InvokeChaos said:

So when you sit down with a McCabe or Lynch crew... both of which are their own thing once again, you could have everything from an undead spirit samurai warrior to a junkie possessed by a demon to an ascetic monk, to mechanical dogs. 

I personally LOVE that aspect. All these conflicting appearances and thematics that collide into this collection of underlings dancing to the same fife. But as others above me have noted, it creates a disconnect aesthetically that a bunch of people don't like either.

I feel the same way, I like most of 10T's models despite them often having conflicting looks.This is part of the appeal of the faction for me personally, much like how playing Zoraida gives me access to some crazy unit combinations (Nurses, Samurai and Pigs? WTF?). That being said, the only models I dislike are the Rail Crew, McGabe crew and the Tengu... This is purely based on my instinctual understanding of aesthetics.
This problem can easily be solved (as far as looks are concerned) with some little conversions and an overlapping color scheme for the faction. This is exactly why I plan to restart some of my Ten Thunders and make them look coherent, with a bad-arse color scheme.

Concerning unit overlap in Ten Thunders: If anything, we are the faction where it is possible to overlap the models and still get good (or great) results, this is another aspect of the faction I love. I recently challenged myself to play all my five Masters with two Oiran, Fuhatsu and two Thunder Archers (+Blot Out the Sky). While the different Masters had different playstyles, they were all able to support this (rather subpar) crew composition. I like taking say, a Samurai, and knowing that he's gonna work regardless of which Master I have taken. This is the true underlying theme of Ten Thunders: We are THE toolbox faction that allows us to tailor the crew to our needs (or preferences). The Asian theme is only secondary and comes as phylosophical flavor to transmit the above (in my opinion).

[InvokeChaos]

6 hours ago, Eclipse said:

This problem can easily be solved (as far as looks are concerned) with some little conversions and an overlapping color scheme for the faction.

I haven't done the conversion thing (I'm terrible at it), but I HAVE done the overlapping color scheme. I went to my wife for colors and she suggested teal. When prompted for a second color she wanted a more neutral tan or brown (or "something like that").  So my base 10T scheme has become teal and brown. It looks really good. Each of my other factions have a different scheme, but any "traitors" I maintain that teal and brown scheme to SOME degree. Like my lynch's vest will be teal, but I'll maintain whatever color scheme I do for my neverborn overall (haven't settled yet). My rezzers will be red based, but Yan Lo will have some teal accents. 

Think "Curse of the Golden Flower" where it just brought a bunch of people together under a common accent, rather than a unifying color scheme per se.

Stuff just to show allegiance, but not overtly display, "Yes! I am a Ten Thunder!" The hard part is figuring out color schemes for factions I am not playing, so that if (read: when) I dip my toe into those pools, I have 10T masters that already mesh in. 

 

[Pyrflamme]

On a more competitive note, I think 10T has the activation problem but it's magnified when you get into competing versus summoning masters. We have *some* counter options (Taelor, Toshiro, Shadowy Emissary giving blasts on Focused) but if the other crew gets to run away, it becomes a lot harder.

[Eclipse]

7 hours ago, Pyrflamme said:

On a more competitive note, I think 10T has the activation problem but it's magnified when you get into competing versus summoning masters. We have *some* counter options (Taelor, Toshiro, Shadowy Emissary giving blasts on Focused) but if the other crew gets to run away, it becomes a lot harder.

Yeah, as far as I understand the only crews in TT that can potentially cushion being out-activated from the get-go are Mei Feng with a horde of Komainu, Rail Workers and Ten Thunders Brothers, or a Lynch crew with a few Depleted. Though having Toshiro to summon stuff truly helps

[OneLittleThunder]

On 5/29/2016 at 6:41 PM, Eclipse said:

Yeah, as far as I understand the only crews in TT that can potentially cushion being out-activated from the get-go are Mei Feng with a horde of Komainu, Rail Workers and Ten Thunders Brothers, or a Lynch crew with a few Depleted. 

Don't forget McCabe with a pack of Guild Hounds...

[Eclipse]

22 minutes ago, OneLittleThunder said:

Don't forget McCabe with a pack of Guild Hounds...

Oh yeah, McGabe and his nasty cheap missile squad. On another note, given the preview of our new TT Master, Asami, I believe that she might be a summoning Master - yet another way to counter getting out-activated.

[Da Git]

Is being down one or two activations really that big a deal?  I've found that with a 7 (maybe 8) model crew is fine and has enough killing power to really even the odds.  Can you give me an example of a list that has more than 7-8 models (without summoning) that has decent holding & killing power?

Yes, I know killing power isn't everything but it certainly helps (besides, they can't run schemes if they're dead...!)