Can anyone explain the lack of TT players?

[winterblade27]

Hey everyone,

As the title says!

Some context though, I've just started playing TT got Shen Long and Brewie, and I went to a tourney last week with 35 players from all over the UK and no TT, then I went to my FLGS yesterday for a game and again was the only TT player... Are they just unpopular or is there another reason?

Cheers

[-Loki-]

I think a contributing factor is that all but one master is dual faction. So people in your area might simply be playing those masters in their 'native' faction. For example, a lot of people play Jakob Lynch as Neverborn to get access to Depleted, Beckoners, a Doppleganger and Terror Tots.

[winterblade27]

Just now, -Loki- said:

I think a contributing factor is that all but one master is dual faction. So people in your area might simply be playing those masters in their 'native' faction. For example, a lot of people play Jakob Lynch as Neverborn to get access to Depleted, Beckoners, a Doppleganger and Terror Tots.

Ooooh yeah, I had never thought about it that way tbh! I just thought it was abit strange how in a game with a small number of factions 1 would be so badly under used!

[-Loki-]

It's also driven by local preferences. The person running a league in my area was complaining that everyone in the area played Neverborn or Guild. Unfortunately that was after I declared Neverborn for the league, otherwise I'd have declared Gremlins.

[winterblade27]

I'm probably over thinking it, I just thought it was interesting  

Neverborn and Arcanists always seem to be staple factions, usually plenty at any event! Maybe TT will catch on with the coming waves

[Boshea]

Similar to Gremlins, TT had to wait for a lot of their core pieces to get released. Now that the foundation for the faction is finally out they should be getting more representation.

[winterblade27]

Lets hope so! They bring something different to the table top, both looks and game play wise  

[Furio]

I'm running a tournament this weekend, 14 pre-registered players..  and 3 are TT. I think these things depend a lot on your local meta.

[Paradigm]

I've been playing Ten Thunders exclusively since I got started with Malifaux about a year ago. From talking to people at tournaments I've gotten the impression that they're generally regarded as less competetive when compared to other factions. I'm not experienced enough to know for certain, but we seem to have fewer top-tier masters. Maybe Lynch, but many argue he is better in Neverborn. The good thing about Malifaux though is that the game is balanced enough that the differences are not that big. I for one love the feel of Ten Thunders, so I don't really mind.

[eaglebach]

There are plenty of TT players out there, just that they are infiltrating the other factions so well that you don't see them. And they're so deep undercover that they don't even declare TT as their faction in games.

[Icemyn]

Ten Thunders don't really have access to the good cheap minions the other factions do. 
While the other factions are fielding 8-9 models at 50ss TT is generally 7 sometimes 8, which leaves them out activated very consistently. 
Tengu being released relatively recently helps on this front as they have reasonable mobility. 

You also have to consider that TT masters tend to have very little overlap regarding crew builds. 
The other factions have several marquee models, the TT don't which can make it difficult to buy into the faction. 
In fact buying into TT is arguably more expensive as each master requires things from their dual faction. 

So what you have is a faction that is expensive both in game and out of pocket. 

[thebarbalag]

Hunh, we've got three regular 10T players in our meta. When they want to out-activate, they bring McCabe with 4 Hounds and Luna, plus whatever else.

[Tokapondora]

You shouldn't have to resort to one specific master to be able to have 9-10 activations a turn. TT really has a problem with cheap minions. Even the few we do have lack utility above taking 1-2. 

[Icemyn]

2 minutes ago, thebarbalag said:

Hunh, we've got three regular 10T players in our meta. When they want to out-activate, they bring McCabe with 4 Hounds and Luna, plus whatever else.

Sure. TT McCabe has access to another factions best scheme runners who Luna actually improves.
But wouldn't running McCabe as guild just be better?
The point I was making isn't that you can't get activations with TT, it's that everything is so expensive that you generally don't. 
After building the core of a list I generally have 4 models with upgrades and >20ss remaining.
Maybe it's just me, but I find list building with TT the hardest out of the factions. 
Just very hard to fit in the models I need to win the game and have activations. 

That's ignoring the fact that you are highlighting the second issue of cost to play TT. 

[admiralvorkraft]

Dawn Serpent makes a pretty compelling reason to run McCabe in TT...

And 10T Brothers are a phenomenal cheap minion...

[Kirby]

44 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

You shouldn't have to resort to one specific master to be able to have 9-10 activations a turn. TT really has a problem with cheap minions. Even the few we do have lack utility above taking 1-2. 

You just described nearly any master and faction in the game, though.  How many non-summoners are getting 9-10 activations in a turn (outside of rat engine)?  I usually see 7-8, less if chain activating is involved.  10T can do 7-8 just fine on any of their masters.  Shenlong gets to play pseudo-summoner and gaining an activation with the peasant stuff too.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Yeah, past 7-8, you need to be summoning/have something improving your little guys since the drop off in quality needs some sort of support or you'll just be whiffing a lot, in many cases.

[Rurouni Benshin]

I'm arguably the most prominent TT player in my meta, but that's not to say I'm the only TT player.  A lot of my friends in my meta play a couple of factions, and amongst them, they own about 3-4 TT Masters amongst them, but don't play them that regularly (at least not against me, anyway).

That said, I've done fine with 7-8 activations per turn.  Admittedly, I do get out activated very often, but it doesn't affect my game play as adversely as some might think.  A large part of my crew is built to cater to the faction I'm playing against, probably more so than to the mission itself.  So while I may not score all 10 points for mission, if I can keep my opponent from scoring, while maintaining a lead of any kind, then it serves the same purpose.

 

[Skitt_Happens]

I agree that Ten Thunders are a little under represented, but it's not a massive drop off by the tournament statistics I've seen. Gremlins were very low, but then they had their models released...

Dual faction thundering is definitely a factor. In my meta there are quite a few players who I know to dabble with TT, but very few use it as their primary faction.

One important thing is that, as TT didn't exist in 1st edition, long-time players already have a "top 5" faction. Primary TT or Gremlin players are newer players generally (I include myself in that). Gremlins have a clear and attractive hook. In terms of game play, TT is a bit muddier. 

In my opinion, TT are really strong in the high / mid-range of models: our options at 7-8ss are all brilliant. However our options are less spectacular at <5ss and non existent at >10ss. Compare a Katakana Sniper to a Trapper (in Outcasts) - we pay an extra soulstone for a model that is all round better, but if all you are doing is focus, shoot, repeat, then you are paying more for a model that does the same thing.

The popularity of Neverborn and Arcanists, I think, is that each of their models has a specific task to which it applies itself very well. As long as you don't ask them to do anything else, they won't let you down.

Neverborn have dominated the UK rankings for a long time because, in the right hands, the performance is very hard to match. I have a theory: playing well with TT should not necessarily be about creating unstoppable lists and playing for 10vp, but finding your opponents weak spots and poking them in it. With a pointy stick. To win with ninjas you must become the ninja! This is a less obvious, and immediately appealing strategy, but equal to any other faction in its own right.

Having said all that, at my last tournament the tables were separated in banks of three. In my second round game (Squatter's Rights) I looked over and all three players sitting on the same side of the table were all playing TT McCabe. Great moment of: "have I brought the right master?" Look to my left, look to my right: "apparently I have."

I suppose the extrapillated question here is: why did we choose TT over other more "competitive" factions? Aesthetic was the leading point for me, but I also like the character of the Ten Thunders.

[Tokapondora]

9 at least I see a lot and at a push my meta can easily reach 10, while I can be genuinely proud of myself if I manage to make it to 8. At any rate, we just lack options in little guys. I'd say up to 5 points, only the Komainu, 10T brothers and Tengu are worth taking, and it's tough to justify taking more than 2 of any of them combined. 

I know it's perfectly servicable, but I'd like a few more options rather than to have to go semi-elite every single game. 

[valhallan42nd]

I dabbled in Ten Thunders. It seems like I always had just a few tricks shy of my opponent's own bag of tricks. Of course, I was playing against neverborn, and their trick is "Let's murder everything down to hard to kill, and then Black Blood pustule" so.... Yeah.

[Icemyn]

2 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

Dawn Serpent makes a pretty compelling reason to run McCabe in TT...

And 10T Brothers are a phenomenal cheap minion...

I'm honestly curious about the Dawn Serpent with McCabe. I've only ever heard bad things about it. 
What does it add?

[valhallan42nd]

15 minutes ago, Icemyn said:

I'm honestly curious about the Dawn Serpent with McCabe. I've only ever heard bad things about it. 
What does it add?

Reactivate.

[Yvarre]

In looking at the master tier discussions, there are varying opinions that put TT Lynch, TT McCabe, or Shen Long as top tier masters.  The sheer versatility and movement shenanigans of both McCabe and Shen Long make them highly capable of every strategy with few bad matchups, and combining McCabe with Senseii Yu can just get absurd.  I also think that McCabe has better minion options in Ten Thunders than in guild, as he can bring hounds, austringers, and mounted cavalry with him into TT anyways.  TT Bros, Illuminated, Dawn Serpent, Wandering River monk (outright ridiculous with Lucas giving it reactivate and nimble as it can just drop 4 scheme markers in a turn with relative impunity)...

1 hour ago, Skitt_Happens said:

I have a theory: playing well with TT should not necessarily be about creating unstoppable lists and playing for 10vp, but finding your opponents weak spots and poking them in it. With a pointy stick. To win with ninjas you must become the ninja! This is a less obvious, and immediately appealing strategy, but equal to any other faction in its own right.

Having said all that, at my last tournament the tables were separated in banks of three. In my second round game (Squatter's Rights) I looked over and all three players sitting on the same side of the table were all playing TT McCabe. Great moment of: "have I brought the right master?" Look to my left, look to my right: "apparently I have."

We're playing the cerebral positioning game.  While positioning is important through every faction, striking from the shadows is what we Thunders do, and we're going to use our superior mobility to score our points and deny our opponent's.  We are going to bait our opponents in to maximize their weaknesses and very often throw around + flips when we want to take things down, improving our card quality and conserving our control hands.

While we don't have 12 stone killing machines like Langston or very much summoning and activation control engines like Obedient Wretch or Gremlins as a general whole, we do have great, durable mid-range models; tons of healing; lots of 2" and 3" engagement ranges; great pushes; sources of fast, reactivate, and focus; Recalled Training...

I think we Thunders are a tricky faction to be good with, but we are no less competitive than any other faction.  I would say that we have to be more aware of our opponent's capabilities and possible game plan to maximize our crews and play a slightly more interactive game than say a Sonnia blast everything list or any summoning activation control spam, etc. because we lack the raw power of many other factions and focus on defensible placement and target prioritization just a bit more.

This all said, I was the only Thunder player at Nova last year, and I think I went 2-3 with a differential around 0, which isn't so bad considering I had only been playing the game for 6 months.

[ADrake]

I've started solely focusing on TT for a number of reasons:

- I realised that I had masters in all factions, and decided it was time to stop my master ADHD and focus on one faction. Being able to turn up to a gaming night with 2-3 masters from the same faction was the motivating factor. TT were the faction that I had a good mix of masters for and a variety of models.

- I like the play style of TT. As has been mentioned above, it sometimes feels like we have to rely on shenanigans and adapting to the game at hand.

- lastly, I actually like identifying with an underused faction. It's slightly more 'unique' (though of course nothing actually is) and I get to play with toys others don't have.