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Theorycrafting changes in current models


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14 hours ago, Surrealistik said:

So are you of the opinion then that all of the current competitive options need to be pulled down to the level of the Guild Guard and other noncompetitive models? If so, I'm personally not convinced that this would create less upheaval than improving the noncompetitive options to be competitive.

Improving the models that are considered sub par to the point where they would compete with the already competitive choices would cause a lot of major problems. First, there are a lot of them that would fall into this category. Second, you would end up with a game full of broken combos and interactions. In the end, it would still likely result in OP'ed interactions due to the hiring availability of models both in and out of faction. Helping Guild Guard for Lucius means helping them for every other Master that can hire them. To see an example of this look at any of the Masters that can hire out of faction models as long as they have the requisite characteristic. Lets say for example you wanted to improve Death Marshals for use with Lady Justice, unless you include a proviso that it only works with Lady Justice then you are also potentially benefiting a crew that includes Karina. Finally, I don't subscribe to the idea that a game can be balanced by making everything over powered, it doesn't it just leads to a lot of NPE's and a shrinking community.

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Speaking of summoning, I did recognize that deficiency and attempt to rectify it in the form of the We Are Legion upgrade. TBH though I really hate the idea of 'mandatory' and 'must take' upgrades as a matter of principle, and I would vastly prefer that these be core rather than pretend at being optional peripherals. This is part of the reason I have distaste for upgrade based fixes, though if it's something that proves integral, and core to underperforming Guardsmen models as a unique mechanic specific to them, I'm sure I could get over that aversion rather quickly.

I am in complete agreement. I dislike the upgrade system as a whole (since as you state it only provides the illusion of choice) and absolutely detest the 0 upgrades (which are really only a method of getting around the negative connotation of calling them "erratas").

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I think that is why it makes more sense to try to fix lucius than to try to fix the guardsmen.  The fact is, I like a lot of the other minions in guild.  i enjoy using the death marshalls, witchling stalkers, hunters, wardens, watchers and even sometimes orderlies.  Adding in the changelings is even better.

Someone earlier was comparing the damage of a rifleman to the damage of a stalker.  The rifleman does that damage from up to 14 inches away.

Now, I think with the new schemes shooting has gotten worse because you want to get across the board faster.  So they got worse in general.

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1 hour ago, Omenbringer said:

Improving the models that are considered sub par to the point where they would compete with the already competitive choices would cause a lot of major problems. First, there are a lot of them that would fall into this category. Second, you would end up with a game full of broken combos and interactions.

To be honest, I'm not sure there's even enough design space to make all the options at the same pricepoint in a faction equally (or at least similarly) viable options. A lot of models existed in 1st ed only to facilitate combos or be 'this crew's version of x' for keyword interactions and/or hiring restrictions.

I'm a big fan of the less specialised design philosophy and gameplay of 2nd Ed; it's great being able to try different crews and models for the various objectives with a reasonable (as long as you're sensible) chance of succeeding. The downside is that I often look at the 4-6 SS range of models and wonder why on earth you would want all of those options to do basically the same thing. Plus, when you do get a particular model that's a bit ahead of the curve in a given points bracket you have no reason not to hire it and everything else tends to winds up on the 'summon or shelf' pile. 

37 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

I think that is why it makes more sense to try to fix lucius than to try to fix the guardsmen.  The fact is, I like a lot of the other minions in guild.  i enjoy using the death marshalls, witchling stalkers, hunters, wardens, watchers and even sometimes orderlies.  Adding in the changelings is even better.

Someone earlier was comparing the damage of a rifleman to the damage of a stalker.  The rifleman does that damage from up to 14 inches away.

Now, I think with the new schemes shooting has gotten worse because you want to get across the board faster.  So they got worse in general.

Considering that Lucius originally functioned as a way of making the relatively subpar guardsmen playable I think that's a great idea. :) 

Also, that was me about the Riflemen and I still think they suck. :P

Witchling Stalkers can do their damage from 1" away, and even less! Riflemen are useless once they close on the enemy (or vice versa) which you quite often want to deny markers they've dropped, or are going to drop. So compared to a Stalker their only counter scheming option is to kill the enemy scheme runners before they have a chance to drop a marker, and even with 14" range you need a pretty obliging opponent to let you do that most of the time. 

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18 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

 This is why I have the somewhat unpopular opinion that Malifaux should take a break from further development for a while (at least a Gencon) and let things shake out. As long as you continue to introduce more and more models to the mix the problem just gets worse.

Wave 3 pretty well accomplished this, as far as I'm concerned.  It had a very modest model count and a set of things that have pretty targeted applications.  It's essentially been two years since the glut of Wave 2 and we're really starting to see the community get a handle on what models best fit in their given point slot.

In terms of fixing models, I think its important to have a goal in mind.  Does it suck that say, the Guardian isn't great?  Sure.  Is it that important.... meh.  I consider the top priority that every faction can be fielded competitively, period.  If you're not seeing every faction in the Top 16 of a major event, there's probably an issue to be looked into.  Next up, I think the balance of masters is important.  Here's the first place you get into issues of inter-faction balance.  If one Master is head and shoulders above her peers, they may not be the problem unless they are similarly problematic at the cross faction level.  This is where attempts to one size fits all balance fixes (buff the bottom cuddle the top) might not play out.  One faction might need 6, even 7 masters buffed while another could use a buff of 4 and a cuddle of 1.

Lastly, you have... other models.  Honestly, I don't really care that Guard don't see the table. I think its unfortunate and were it to change I'd appreciate it, but I don't consider as much of a priority as ensuring Lucius works regardless of what he takes (and here I don't really care as long as Guild as a whole can compete).  If you're lucky enough to worry about this level, its worth remembering not to sacrifice your constants for the sake of your unknowns lest you undo the work above.  Even if Francisco is the only valid Henchmen, its not worth changing him if doing so removes a master's place in the competitive brackets.  There are times when a model might need adjusting, but generally it requires an effect powerful enough to rival a master's effect on the board.  In general though, when it comes to generic models you're often better off buffing stuff simply because you can look at what works and design to it.

In general though I just find balance to be a relative state and nothing absolute.  Balancing the game takes priority over anything else, including balancing masters within a faction, and both are far more important than making Wastrels work.  In my experience, buffs and cuddles each have their value.  cuddles work best when confronted with an outlier that homogenizes the game as a whole.  Buffs work best when looking to revive a model that's been discarded by the community of a faction.  In either case its best to look at what currently defines the competitive meta and build towards it.  Anything else just leaves you unable to really judge just how much a model needs to be tweaked to balance it.

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Ah...well my own predilections for Malifaux has always been the "character" of the game. It is what drew me to it in the first place, though it no longer seems to be a major design consideration. I enjoy the "story" of the game much more than whether I won or lost.

I prefer to field crews that would be thematically together and not ones that would really have 0 reason to ever be found together other than it is the most competitive option. That is I think the biggest failure with the new edition, the loss of character.

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I wouldn't argue that the loss of keyword synergies is problematic and really limits the design space potential.  The keyword restricted upgrades costing 2 SS is a big part of this, though personally I'd appreciate it if they were passive abilities on the masters instead.  That's more a design space argument though than a balance consideration.

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1 hour ago, LunarSol said:

Does it suck that say, the Guardian isn't great?  Sure.  Is it that important.... meh.  I consider the top priority that every faction can be fielded competitively, period...Lastly, you have... other models.  Honestly, I don't really care that Guard don't see the table. I think its unfortunate and were it to change I'd appreciate it, but I don't consider as much of a priority as ensuring Lucius works regardless of what he takes (and here I don't really care as long as Guild as a whole can compete). 

Just wanted to add, first and foremost Wyrd is a model production company, having models that aren't viable is a money losing endeavor for them. Using the Lucius crew box for example, if both he and his included models are considered sub par then sales will suffer in favor of the handful of models that are. It is in the company's best interest to insure that everything is viable.

If the Lucius box is considered Sub-par then players wont purchase it outside of visual appeal. Additionally, if a player does purchase the box based solely on visual appeal, what happens when they actually play the game with it? If they consistently get trounced they are unlikely to want to continue playing (yes I have seen this happen). At best this means no additional sales of product for Wyrd, at worst it means the creation of a vocal critic of the game.

Balance is important in a game, there are a lot of examples of n ow defunct games (and companies) that ignored this.

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Am I the only person who thinks this whole 'You have to look at large data sets from competitions' thing is a bit over-touted? (not to criticise, LunarSol, you just brought it to mind)

Obviously that kind of information is important, but there seems to be this recent trend (possibly because of the existence of these kinds of threads) in saying that it's the only meaningful way of assessing the balance of particular models, which I don't agree with. Yes, there are certain subtle or important things which are best supported by competition data, but there are other things (for example, the action Menace being a waste of ink) which are pretty obvious just from looking at cards and playtesting.

I also find it kind of interesting interesting that there is apparently some demand for this kind of data, but no-one seems that interested in mining all the anecdotal information available on the forums, which would probably be about as easy to analyze if you were actually bothered. 

 

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54 minutes ago, LunarSol said:

I wouldn't argue that the loss of keyword synergies is problematic and really limits the design space potential.  The keyword restricted upgrades costing 2 SS is a big part of this, though personally I'd appreciate it if they were passive abilities on the masters instead.  That's more a design space argument though than a balance consideration.

To be honest I think with the shift towards more general crew building this edition they could have easily gotten rid of a tonne of models without affecting the game. At least in Guild you can see there was an attempt made to differentiate the original 4SS baseline minions into different roles and costs. Anytime I look at arcanists I wonder why they need so many cheap constructs along with union miners, hoarcats and various other junk.

Presumably they didn't want to axe models since they are (as Omenbringer says) in the business of making models, but I think it might have been an interesting step if they'd kept the models but cut down on stat-blocks. So for example making the various gamin identical but for a special rule each, same for Oiran/Beckoners/Performers and various random gremlins no-one seems to want to use. They could have even used the upgrade system to make Exorcists upgraded Death Marshalls, Guild Sergeants upgraded Guild Guards, and the like. 

And, now I'm really off topic. :)

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Slightly off topic but my biggest issue with the guild guard is that their shooting is worse than the shooting of their reanimated corpses.
The fluff stated that the guild autopsies were clumsy and tried to shoot with their swords and strike with their pistols......to the point where I don't really want to use autopsies in ressers (or at least not their shooting attack)...these things bug me....

Apart from that I'm waiting for a pistolero to see how solid a triangle of two guard and a pistolero are with Lucius.

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6 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

Improving the models that are considered sub par to the point where they would compete with the already competitive choices would cause a lot of major problems. First, there are a lot of them that would fall into this category. Second, you would end up with a game full of broken combos and interactions. In the end, it would still likely result in OP'ed interactions due to the hiring availability of models both in and out of faction. Helping Guild Guard for Lucius means helping them for every other Master that can hire them. To see an example of this look at any of the Masters that can hire out of faction models as long as they have the requisite characteristic. Lets say for example you wanted to improve Death Marshals for use with Lady Justice, unless you include a proviso that it only works with Lady Justice then you are also potentially benefiting a crew that includes Karina. Finally, I don't subscribe to the idea that a game can be balanced by making everything over powered, it doesn't it just leads to a lot of NPE's and a shrinking community.

 

I'm not sure this is necessarily true.

For example, improving the underpowered Guardsman models in ways that make them significantly better with Lucius as a master, while these gains in value are much more limited when in the employ of other masters; in this way already strong masters don't get further boosted in light of the opportunity cost of switching out existing core components of their crew for the improved Guardsmen.

With the Guild Guard as an example, I intended them to derive especial benefit from AP transfers that Lucius excels at vs other crews, as well as the other problem Guardsman, and in general, for Lucius to have especial synergy with Guardsman/Mimic subtypes and vice versa. That said, I don't pretend that I'm going to detect every possible synergy, including degenerate ones, which is why I'm tapping into the hivemind and soliciting the advice and feedback of the forum.

 

Also yeah, always thought that zombified Guild Guard being better at something as coordination and perception intensive as shooting than their living counterparts was funny as hell, and really typified in a comedic nutshell how underpowered they are.

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I think both halves there are worth considering as hypotheticals:

If guardsmen are underpowered in the context of the faction (i.e. factoring in the benefits and costs of support, assuming they need it, vs. the raw cost of models without access to said support, I think there's nothing wrong with boosting them to be on par with the rest of the faction, and while it increases the variety of what other masters can work with, I don't think it should horribly affect their power.

If Lucius is underpowered, he could be approached after the guardsmen are fixed if he still needs the help, or in that absence, run well enough that they're just mostly useful with him, though I think this is a less elegant solution, since it still makes them poor choices under other masters. 

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2 hours ago, lusciousmccabe said:

Am I the only person who thinks this whole 'You have to look at large data sets from competitions' thing is a bit over-touted? (not to criticise, LunarSol, you just brought it to mind)...

I also find it kind of interesting interesting that there is apparently some demand for this kind of data, but no-one seems that interested in mining all the anecdotal information available on the forums, which would probably be about as easy to analyze if you were actually bothered. 

 

You are not alone in this, however it has been stated by Justin as the only way something is likely to change. I don't necessarily disagree with the policy as there have been (and likely will continue to be) many threads that come in vehemently stating that model x is absolutely broken only to find that the broken interaction was due to playing a rule incorrectly or not playing with enough terrain or simply not being familiar with the crew. Where I disagree most with the policy is in regards to treating everyone exactly the same in terms of raising the alarm. A long time and successful tournament player that posts an interaction that needs to be dialed back after using it and seeing it used by several others to great effect in a widely attended (read as more than one small meta) competitive event should have a bit of credibility extended to them.

2 hours ago, Vorschlag said:

Slightly off topic but my biggest issue with the guild guard is that their shooting is worse than the shooting of their reanimated corpses.

Yes, this is more than a bit annoying, I attribute it to the removal of the "Character" from the game and the open play test methods that were employed during the edition change (glad to see that went away!).

46 minutes ago, Surrealistik said:

For example, improving the underpowered Guardsman models in ways that make them significantly better with Lucius as a master, while these gains in value are much more limited when in the employ of other masters; in this way already strong masters don't get further boosted in light of the opportunity cost of switching out existing core components of their crew for the improved Guardsmen.

See I don't have an issue with this. I would love for the character to be reintroduced to the game. And just to curtail the old thread where character apparently = OP'ed interactions, I am not talking about leaving or creating broken interactions (everything should be relatively balanced in my opinion with ridiculous interactions removed from the game completely) but having themed crews perform better than non-themed ones. A Master sold with a specific group of models should do more for them than any other Master able to hire them otherwise whats the point of selling them together?

I see these changes as coming in the form of upgrades in order to keep from cluttering the model stat cards (one of the expressed design goals of M2e). My wish would be that it would be facilitated via a "crew" upgrade card (think themed forces in Warmahordes) which wouldn't occupy a valuable upgrade slot on one of the models (some of whom really need their upgrades to function at all) and would persist even if the "boosting leader" model were to die.

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themed crews perform better than non-themed ones. A Master sold with a specific group of models should do more for them than any other Master able to hire them otherwise whats the point of selling them together?

Cannot like this enough times.....

Themed/fluff crews are what got me in to the game and what keep me coming back.
I will always have a higher opinion of a competitive player that runs fluffy/thematic than one who does not.

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On 5/8/2016 at 10:21 PM, Surrealistik said:

My ideas on how to fix Guardsmen/Lucius; let me know what you think: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cFgFzm7BqEUbZgTKv-BvbxxHikBSwPMrYjvcGaTfBhE/edit?usp=sharing

Each modified stat block has its own separate page; Guild Guardsman, Guild Hound, Guild Rifleman, Guild Sergeant, Captain Dashel and Lucius have all been adjusted.

EDIT: Also changed Surprisingly Loyal due to revision of Highest Authority.

Guild Guard: Very much like the change of the push value to Wk. As you said, it synergizes. Additional trigger to Detain is too much for a 4ss model (would be OK at 5ss, see Performer), and since the basic guard has to remain 4ss, that must be removed again. There's space to argue for a stacking condition when trying to apply Arrest to an already arrested model (see Steam Arachnid), but not paralyze.

Guild Hound: Perfect.

Guild Rifleman: I wanted a shorter push for guardsmen so that a 3" melee model could still lock them down. I think 2" push is what is necessary for getting them out of short-range melee while leaving them locked into longer reach melee--not 4" and a guarantee of leaving in 1 AP. Adding in one survivability trait is good, may as well be armor.

Guild Sergeant: Bark Orders is nice BUT it WILL lose its power to generate an extra 0ap action. Provoking extra 0 actions in a turn is rare and special (at least in Guild, Queeg is the only model for a general source of extra 0s--not familiar enough with other factions to expand on that--citations please) and probably not going to be allowed. But yes, dear god did he need something to do with his AP other than stroll up to the enemy. Cg5? What was the design rationale for that?

Captain Dashel: While I agree with the comment above that Order to Volunteer is the same as Bark Orders and should be the same (unless you intended only Dashel's version to have the power to generate an extra 0 action, which may be balanced enough to keep), this one has the more truthful name to it. Only I would make it "Ordered" instead of "Order". If the developers are worried about Dashel/sergeant giving multiple orders to one target, there is always the option of it applying the condition "Voluntold" on the target, preventing further use of Bark Orders for the turn. Scheme marker moving seems useless here also but what other 0 has he got anyway? Come to think of it, being able to move enemy scheme markers, while also a very rare ability, could be hilarious.

Lucius:

[card] Excellent idea to give him the ability to order mimics around as well; Neverborn Lucius players will be happy. Also like that the casting boost to issue command is on his base card, and limited to his keyword models, which keeps him from stepping on several other masters' toes.

[upgrades] I would need to see the modified Elite Training playtested; it's intriguing as heck but I can't tell whether it's balanced just by looking at the cost brackets. I don't like the summoning upgrade. Field Officer is an interesting potential errata-upgrade as a new source to stack orders onto the guardsman of choice. I'm not sure about the other errata-upgrades.

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11 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

Just wanted to add, first and foremost Wyrd is a model production company, having models that aren't viable is a money losing endeavor for them. Using the Lucius crew box for example, if both he and his included models are considered sub par then sales will suffer in favor of the handful of models that are. It is in the company's best interest to insure that everything is viable.

If the Lucius box is considered Sub-par then players wont purchase it outside of visual appeal. Additionally, if a player does purchase the box based solely on visual appeal, what happens when they actually play the game with it? If they consistently get trounced they are unlikely to want to continue playing (yes I have seen this happen). At best this means no additional sales of product for Wyrd, at worst it means the creation of a vocal critic of the game.

Balance is important in a game, there are a lot of examples of n ow defunct games (and companies) that ignored this.

I think its more complex than this. Wyrds income is not solely contingent on selling individual models or boxes, I think the overall balance/play experience will effect sales too, as few people will pay to play a poorly designed game.

Maybe the extra income from selling Hoffman (Watcher) and Perdita (Francisco) boxes evens up the lost revenue from the Lucius boxes? Is the current balance, with a sub par Lucius, more likely to attract new or keep current players than the new balance that a Lucius buff will bring about? Did the Metal Gamin cuddle cause a decrease Mei Feng, Mechanical Rider and Metal Gamin box sales? Did it raise the sales of other boxes?

I agree that money is something Wyrd have to consider, but I dont think it can be boiled down to something as simple "Wyrd is first and foremost a model production company" :)

 

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I'm not sure he sells poorly. Tons of people in my local group have bought his box cause they loved the model, then more boxes to find minions that might make him work and after that given up on him. Heck, half of my purchases are made trying to make him click so he might actually make tons of money compared to some stronger masters with tight hiring pools like Rasputina.

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15 hours ago, lusciousmccabe said:

Am I the only person who thinks this whole 'You have to look at large data sets from competitions' thing is a bit over-touted? (not to criticise, LunarSol, you just brought it to mind)

Obviously that kind of information is important, but there seems to be this recent trend (possibly because of the existence of these kinds of threads) in saying that it's the only meaningful way of assessing the balance of particular models, which I don't agree with. Yes, there are certain subtle or important things which are best supported by competition data, but there are other things (for example, the action Menace being a waste of ink) which are pretty obvious just from looking at cards and playtesting.

I also find it kind of interesting interesting that there is apparently some demand for this kind of data, but no-one seems that interested in mining all the anecdotal information available on the forums, which would probably be about as easy to analyze if you were actually bothered. 

 

I think this is largely from experience. I've been following these forums for years now, and can give you plenty of examples of stuff that was thought to be rubbish, that actually when used correctly were amongst some of the more powerful things. Sommer and Marcus were 2 biggies in the first edition, widely seen as rubbish, but when a few top players went to play them, the power levels they showed demonstrated that they were actually very good masters. And that took 3-4 years to really be noticed. (And I've heard recent stories of a few top players starting to look seriously at Lucius and what he can do, and being impressed with the potential)

I've also been involved in plenty of discussions about some things that some players have found overpowered, that in other metas aren't viewed as a problem. Things like the power a model like Perdita  shows when used by new players, and on Terain-low tables, but as players get used to the game, she is much less of an issue. 

Its also easy to theory out an over powered combination, but to be able to play it consistently is quiet different. And it can be hard to judge the effect they have on a game without playing them. 

It is much harder to show something is under powered, rather than just difficult to use.  Mind you its also hard to prove that the absence of Lucius from People winning events means that he is a weak master. 

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3 hours ago, Munindk said:

I think its more complex than this. Wyrds income is not solely contingent on selling individual models or boxes, I think the overall balance/play experience will effect sales too, as few people will pay to play a poorly designed game.

Maybe the extra income from selling Hoffman (Watcher) and Perdita (Francisco) boxes evens up the lost revenue from the Lucius boxes? Is the current balance, with a sub par Lucius, more likely to attract new or keep current players than the new balance that a Lucius buff will bring about? Did the Metal Gamin cuddle cause a decrease Mei Feng, Mechanical Rider and Metal Gamin box sales? Did it raise the sales of other boxes?

I agree that money is something Wyrd have to consider, but I dont think it can be boiled down to something as simple "Wyrd is first and foremost a model production company" :)

 

Fair enough opinion (especially agree with the balance portion) however, Wyrd has abandoned or at least stopped really supporting virtually every one of their previous product lines (Terraclips, Puppet Wars, Showdown Icons, King of Artifice, Evil Baby Orphanage, and Jet Pack Unicorn). Darkness Comes Rattling, though interesting, doesn't appear to be moving well and has received some tough reviews.

Any way you look at it M2e is their cash cow, with out it they don't exist. Producing models that are desirable for play (and not just aesthetically appealing) that players want to buy (preferably in large numbers) is what keeps the lights on and the doors open.

23 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I'm not sure he sells poorly. Tons of people in my local group have bought his box cause they loved the model, then more boxes to find minions that might make him work and after that given up on him. Heck, half of my purchases are made trying to make him click so he might actually make tons of money compared to some stronger masters with tight hiring pools like Rasputina.

This is a short term gain long term loss scenario. Instead of creating a group of players that could assist in moving more product for the company by singing its praises, the Lucius box has now created a population of players that will actively dissuade new players from purchasing it (it may not even be a conscious action) in favor of more viable options (such as Rasputina). Some players may then choose to shift to a stronger more competitive crew (likely avoiding other models that aren't considered competitive as well), others will simply leave the game without purchasing additional product.

Granted perfect balance likely doesn't exist in miniatures games but games that have a noticeable skew toward imbalance (few competitive options amid lots of sub-optimal ones) don't tend to exist for the duration (especially with small model count skirmish games with a "low" cost of entry where the investment isn't so great that walking away equates to hundreds and hundreds of dollars, i.e. Army games like Warhammer, Warhammer 40k, Warmachine, and Hordes).

_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Just to be clear I want the game to succeed. I want it to improve (otherwise I wouldn't dedicate so much time to promoting the game, spend so much time on here, or so much time on modeling and painting). I want all the models to be viable options (hell I own damn near everything so it greatly benefits me). I want the rules to be tight, clear, intuitive, and streamlined (these are not mutually exclusive goals). I want a larger and large community to play against with a huge pool of models to play against (instead of the few variations on a theme that you see at the competitive events).

I would love to see the Guild Guardsman improved (to at least be on par with their undead version). There are a lot of good recommendations in this thread, however, I don't think any of them would lift Lucius and the Guardsman high enough to be competitive options against the extremely potent outliers that exist. I think (my opinion as always) is that the game is better served by bringing the many outliers down rather than trying to push all the sub-optimal ones up.

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9 minutes ago, Adran said:

I've been following these forums for years now, and can give you plenty of examples of stuff that was thought to be rubbish, that actually when used correctly were amongst some of the more powerful things. Sommer and Marcus were 2 biggies in the first edition, widely seen as rubbish, but when a few top players went to play them, the power levels they showed demonstrated that they were actually very good masters.

Ah the old days of "Marcus sucks at everything...but winning" good times.

As some one who sung Som'er's praises from very near the start of the game I can't agree more.

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16 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

Just wanted to add, first and foremost Wyrd is a model production company, having models that aren't viable is a money losing endeavor for them. Using the Lucius crew box for example, if both he and his included models are considered sub par then sales will suffer in favor of the handful of models that are. It is in the company's best interest to insure that everything is viable.

If the Lucius box is considered Sub-par then players wont purchase it outside of visual appeal. Additionally, if a player does purchase the box based solely on visual appeal, what happens when they actually play the game with it? If they consistently get trounced they are unlikely to want to continue playing (yes I have seen this happen). At best this means no additional sales of product for Wyrd, at worst it means the creation of a vocal critic of the game.

Balance is important in a game, there are a lot of examples of n ow defunct games (and companies) that ignored this.

Eh... kinda.  There's definitely truth to the idea that more playable rules sell models, but purchases are never that simple.  That said, I was talking about priorities, and while in my mind priority 1 is that each faction is competitive, that's such a low bar that Lucius becomes a top priority rather quickly.  Lucius's failings are not something to dismiss and his box set is collectively, probably the single worst in the game.  It would definitely by on my short list; probably right after reviewing the rat nonsense.

In terms of proving power level; its definitely a difficult topic.  You get into concepts such as first order strategies that dominate until a counter is learned (Perdita is the queen of this), things that are legitimately over powered, and things that are only on the top of the heap because their predators are hated out of the environment.  Malifaux of course, grossly complicates all of this by having almost zero consistency game to game to draw conclusions from.  Not a bad thing, but it provides a lot of space for problems to hide.

I do think the community is finally getting over the "everything is good" mindset and having a healthy look at opportunity costs.  I've been meaning to really sit down and rank the things in each SS category, but mostly its a question of where the divides are (2-5:5-8:8+? yes, the overlap is intentional).  I think Guild is a pretty good place for such a discussion, as we are unfortunately, rather bloated with models of a similar design.

 

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Definitely agree that the "new car smell" or as you put it "everything is good mindset" has finally worn off. Now the work of addressing the issues with the game needs to begin. My priority in this regard is the elevation rules (which are pretty horrible honestly).

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3 hours ago, Gnomezilla said:

Guild Guard: Very much like the change of the push value to Wk. As you said, it synergizes. Additional trigger to Detain is too much for a 4ss model (would be OK at 5ss, see Performer), and since the basic guard has to remain 4ss, that must be removed again. There's space to argue for a stacking condition when trying to apply Arrest to an already arrested model (see Steam Arachnid), but not paralyze.

Guild Hound: Perfect.

Guild Rifleman: I wanted a shorter push for guardsmen so that a 3" melee model could still lock them down. I think 2" push is what is necessary for getting them out of short-range melee while leaving them locked into longer reach melee--not 4" and a guarantee of leaving in 1 AP. Adding in one survivability trait is good, may as well be armor.

Guild Sergeant: Bark Orders is nice BUT it WILL lose its power to generate an extra 0ap action. Provoking extra 0 actions in a turn is rare and special (at least in Guild, Queeg is the only model for a general source of extra 0s--not familiar enough with other factions to expand on that--citations please) and probably not going to be allowed. But yes, dear god did he need something to do with his AP other than stroll up to the enemy. Cg5? What was the design rationale for that?

Captain Dashel: While I agree with the comment above that Order to Volunteer is the same as Bark Orders and should be the same (unless you intended only Dashel's version to have the power to generate an extra 0 action, which may be balanced enough to keep), this one has the more truthful name to it. Only I would make it "Ordered" instead of "Order". If the developers are worried about Dashel/sergeant giving multiple orders to one target, there is always the option of it applying the condition "Voluntold" on the target, preventing further use of Bark Orders for the turn. Scheme marker moving seems useless here also but what other 0 has he got anyway? Come to think of it, being able to move enemy scheme markers, while also a very rare ability, could be hilarious.

Lucius:

[card] Excellent idea to give him the ability to order mimics around as well; Neverborn Lucius players will be happy. Also like that the casting boost to issue command is on his base card, and limited to his keyword models, which keeps him from stepping on several other masters' toes.

[upgrades] I would need to see the modified Elite Training playtested; it's intriguing as heck but I can't tell whether it's balanced just by looking at the cost brackets. I don't like the summoning upgrade. Field Officer is an interesting potential errata-upgrade as a new source to stack orders onto the guardsman of choice. I'm not sure about the other errata-upgrades.

@ Guild Guard: Fair. Revised the effect such that the Paralyzed condition instead of being straight is terminated if the Guild Guard is no longer engaged with the target; this allows movement effects applied either to the Guild Guard or target to negate the paralysis, while also requiring either a Ram or lucky flip to trigger Detain in the first place, and permitting the target the opportunity to cheat to avoid the paralysis in the first place in the event he has no answers lined up. Did anyone else find this trigger problematic?

@ Guild Rifleman: I thought to keep it consistent with the Freikorps Trapper. Do you not find that the discard cost helps counterbalance the ability to guarantee a disengage?

@ Guild Sergeant: Though I agree AP xfers that permit 0 actions are rare, I didn't figure permitting 0 actions was an issue in light of the sparsity of powerful 0 actions amongst Minion Guardsman and Mimics vs the cost of 1 AP.

@ Captain Dashel: Order to Volunteer is indeed largely the same as Bark Orders. However it features the very notable exception that it can be used on non-Minions. I agree the 0 action is pretty unsatisfactory and was a lazy copy pasta (though it does have minor synergy with Guild Hounds); I have since replaced it with Abrupt Redeployment which features more synergies, inspired by the idea of interference with enemy markers. I've also improved Dashel's melee damage track to be on par with his SS cost, and standard conventions, and given Order to Volunteer a trigger.

@ We Are Legion: What do you dislike about this as a summoning ability? As for the unlisted upgrades, yeah, I'm just kicking some ideas around; not sure about them at all, and they would replace the stat block revisions above as a fix.

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Your We Are Legion upgrade is interesting though I would change a few things. First, pull it away from an action and just make it a granted ability for models with the Guardsman characteristic. Make it a suit dependent card discard (would suggest :ram ) that triggers on model death (characteristic Guardsman) and add in that the models come in at half wounds in addition to the already activated and deployment zone bits. Also dont like that it would sit on Lucius (who has a number of good upgrades that would compete), instead have Captain Dashel carry it and add a restriction that Lucius or Dashel must lead the crew (to keep it from benefiting other crews). I think the cost is about right at 2 SS with these changes.

Thematically it would symbolize a massive Guild raid, with normal Guardsmen flooding the cordoned area. The wounded part would represent the degradation of quality in the newly arriving Guardsmen (new recruits or "desk jockeys" replacing the more experienced or elite members of the Guard that have perished in the raid). Mechanically it is somewhere between Bete Noir's Death Rattles ability and One With the Night action, Bad Juju's Eternal Fiend upgrade, and Som'er Teeth Jones' Get Your Bro action.

I think this alone could make Guardsmen much more useful without requiring alterations to a bunch of models.

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