Rate Masters into tiers

[Math Mathonwy]

Just for a bit of fun - we've had these before but let's do it again since meta tends to change and I don't think we've done this with the Shifting Loyalties out.

Always remember that Malifaux tiers are shallow and tier 3 Master has a good chance against tier 1 Master. Oh, and when tiering, suppose that the Strat + Schemes are something that favours the Master.

I would rate Malifaux Masters as follows:

Tier 1: Perdita, Sonnia, Kirai, Ramos, Colette, Dreamer, Collodi, Jack Daw, Leveticus, Ophelia, Wong
Tier 2: McCabe, Nicodem, Resser McMourning, Tara, Molly, Seamus, Kaeris, Marcus, Rasputina, Mei Feng, Lilith, Zoraida, Lynch, Pandora, Vikkies, Von Schill, Misaki, Hamelin, Ulix, Somer, Mah Tuckett, Shenlong
Tier 3: Guild McMourning, Lady Justice, Hoffmann, Yan Lo, Ironsides, Brewmaster
Tier 4: Lucius

Nicodem, Ulix, Somer, and Marcus could be Tier 1 as well.

Were there any glaring mistakes there? And how would your tier list be?

[TheTrans]

Hoffman down with Yan Lo is a little hurtful...

[Math Mathonwy]

23 minutes ago, TheTrans said:

Hoffman down with Yan Lo is a little hurtful...

Yan Lo got a big boost with his Emissary. Hoffman is good but he has quite a few very unfavourable match-ups. I could easily see someone put Hoffman into Tier 2.

[lusciousmccabe]

I think you could add an extra tier on top for the likes of Leveticus and Kirai.

Also, I think Ramos is kind of hard to rate. I wouldn't put him at the top since he's amazing but focussed in a particular niche.

[Munindk]

You differentiate between Resser and Guild McMourning, would it make sense to do the same for the other dual faction masters?

Perhaps for the masters that change radically when depending on their limited opgrades too, like Dreamer where common consensus seems to be that summoner is better, and Molly where spirit Molly looks better than horror Molly?

[solkan]

But how do you really feel about Lucius? 

I don't think you can say "Assume the schemes and strategies favor the master" when things like Gaining Grounds 2016 in some cases deliberately disfavors some masters.  What are you rating them against, then?

[daniello_s]

39 minutes ago, lusciousmccabe said:

I think you could add an extra tier on top for the likes of Leveticus and Kirai.

What? Nooooooo....

[katadder]

would say somer is the top gremlin master as he is pretty much better at everything than any of the others.

raspy ahead of ramos in arcanists and viks can be top tier (especially if using the rat engine).

sonnia I have never really had trouble with and would rather face her than lady J. same with kirai, but then only played her once and didnt allow ikyro out.

Could almost do a 7 tier thing and order the masters. top master for me from each faction would probably be:

Guild - Perdita

Ressers - Seamus (able to do so many more schemes than kirai easily)

Arcanist - Rasputina

Neverborn - Lilith (having seen her played very nastily by UKs greg)

Outcast - Leveticus

Gremlin - Somer

Ten Thunders - Shen Long

 

would get more difficult after that to put the masters in tiers 2-7 but certainly some obvious bottom tier ones (ironsides, yan lo - both factions, lucius - both factions, brewie)

[Jafar]

I think it also depends on local meta.

For example, if someone lacks good Outcasts player, they will rate Viks, Levi & Jack lower, also I saw on this forum stories about matches where Yan Lo was beast

I would say that :Levi, Kirai, Pandora, Lilith, Somer, Colette can easily cover all schemes and adapt to many situations and matches. So I would say that they are Tier 1 

 

[Kadeton]

If the Strategies and Schemes are assumed to favour the Master, I'd put everyone at top tier. To me, the strength of a Master is more reliably measured by how flexible they are, or to put that another way, how often the Strategy and Schemes will make them one of strongest choices within their declared Faction. In that paradigm, my list would look something like:

Top Tier: Sonnia, Perdita, McMourning, Seamus, Kirai, Rasputina, Lilith, Dreamer, Lynch, Jack Daw, Som'er Teeth, Ophelia, Wong

Middle Tier: McCabe, Hoffman, Nicodem, Tara, Ramos, Mei Feng, Marcus, Colette, Kaeris, Pandora, Collodi, Viktoria, Leveticus, Ulix, Mah Tuckett, Shen Long

Bottom Tier: Lady Justice, Yan Lo, Molly, Ironsides, Zoraida, Lucius, Von Schill, Misaki, Hamelin, Brewmaster

The Masters in the top tier are the ones that you can select before you even see the Strategy and Schemes and still be confident of winning. The ones in the middle are great most of the time, but will often be passed up for a stronger choice if the scenario doesn't favour them. Those in the bottom tier are the ones I'd only pick if the scenario played directly to their strengths.

(A "stronger choice" here doesn't mean a Master of a higher tier, just a Master that's more suited to the scenario. A bottom-tier Master will still be the strongest choice in some circumstances.)

[Math Mathonwy]

1 hour ago, Munindk said:

You differentiate between Resser and Guild McMourning, would it make sense to do the same for the other dual faction masters?

I don't think that any of the others switch tiers based on the faction they are played in. Some are better in one faction or the other but I don't think that the change is all that drastic on anyone else than McMourning.

Quote

Perhaps for the masters that change radically when depending on their limited opgrades too, like Dreamer where common consensus seems to be that summoner is better, and Molly where spirit Molly looks better than horror Molly?

I generally thought of the "best" version. Most of the time the difference isn't big enough to switch tiers (I think that the difference in power between Horror and Spirit Molly isn't all that huge, for example. It is there, but it isn't drastic).

1 hour ago, solkan said:

But how do you really feel about Lucius? 

He's great for teaching noobs!

*the veteran is doing something incomprehensible, flipping cards, cursing, flipping more cards. "OK, that's my Master done, then. I Paralyzed two of my own dudes and killed my Totem. Also dropped a Scheme Marker and walked twice. Your turn."*

Quote

I don't think you can say "Assume the schemes and strategies favor the master" when things like Gaining Grounds 2016 in some cases deliberately disfavors some masters.  What are you rating them against, then?

Huh? Who is disfavored by all the Schemes?

53 minutes ago, katadder said:

would say somer is the top gremlin master as he is pretty much better at everything than any of the others.

I'd say that both Wong and Ophelia shoot better than Somer and Ulix summons way better. I can still see the argument about him being at the top, mind.

21 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

If the Strategies and Schemes are assumed to favour the Master, I'd put everyone at top tier.

So I let you choose Strat and Schemes and then I take Colette/Levi/Perdita and you take Lucius and you think that it's a completely even match? (Supposing that my skill level was about equal to yours, that is)

 

Oh, and good discussion everyone, thank you!  

[Stryder]

Hmm...interesting. I have thought about this before, but in a slightly different way.

Three tiers:

 - Competitive (Often used in Tournaments, high reliability/flexibility, can accomplish various strat/scheme pools, etc)

 - Playable (Can be useful in certain strat/scheme pools, generally good)

 - Uncompetitive (Generally not used much at all)

My thoughts:

Guild:

Competitive - McCabe, McMourning

Playable - Perdita, Sonnia, Hoffman (borderline uncompetitive)

Uncompetitive - Lady J, Lucius

 

 

Arcanists:

Competitive - Marcus, Rasputina, Colette, Ramos

Playable - Kaeris

Uncompetitive - Mei Feng, Ironsides

 

Ressers:

Competitive - Nicodem, Molly, Kirai, Seamus

Playable - McMourning, Yan-Lo (Borderline Competitive), Tara

Uncompetitive - None

 

Neverborn:

Competitive - Dreamer, Pandorra, Collodi, Lynch

Playable - Lillith (Borderline Competitive)

Uncompetitive - Lucius, Zoraida

 

Outcast:

Competitive - Levi, Jack, Hamelin

Playable - Von Schill, Misaki, Viktoria (Borderline Competitive)

Uncompetitive - Tara

 

Thunders:

Competitive - Shenlong, McCabe, Lynch

Playable - Yan-Lo (Borderline Competitive), Misaki

Uncompetitive - Brewmaster, Mei Feng

 

Gremlins:

Competitive - Wong, Ulix, Somer, Ophelia

Playable - Mah, Zoraida, Brewmaster

Uncompetitive - None

 

Let the rage begin!

 

[Red Moon Head]

33 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I'd say that both Wong and Ophelia shoot better than Somer and Ulix summons way better. I can still see the argument about him being at the top, mind.So I let you choose 

I would still put Som'er as a higher tier than all the other masters. Agreed the otehr do their 1 thing better, Ophellia shooting, ulix summoning, but Som'er has them as he really isn't that far behind in either field. 

Having the flexibility to do both, while not as well is a major factor in his tier ranking imo. Add to that his squeel even if attacks miss unlike the others, the ability to make that trigger "built-in" relatively easily for a (0), the ability to deny triggers if needed for a (0), Bayou Two card and finally (and coupled with) "Bigger Hat Than You!" makes him a lot more powerful than just the sh/ca stats on his cards imo. 

I play him regularly and I'd say in the right hands he is borderline OP. Hell making opponents lose their control hands every turn after the first is absolutley devastating when you're running a full bayou two card crew.

[Math Mathonwy]

8 minutes ago, Stryder said:

Hmm...interesting. I have thought about this before, but in a slightly different way.

Three tiers:

 - Competitive (Often used in Tournaments, high reliability/flexibility, can accomplish various strat/scheme pools, etc)

 - Playable (Can be useful in certain strat/scheme pools, generally good)

 - Uncompetitive (Generally not used much at all)

My thoughts:

 

Great stuff! Thank you for weighing in.

Some question if you don't mind, as some of the choices certainly piqued my interest. I mean, Mei Feng being in the bottom I can understand. I disagree but it isn't all that interesting IMO and I can certainly see why you would come to that conclusion. But a couple are more interesting IMO and I would love to hear your reasoning for them.

9 minutes ago, Stryder said:

Guild:

Competitive - McCabe, McMourning

I can easily understand McCabe but why McMourning? To me it seems that he is completely superfluous compared to McCabe?

9 minutes ago, Stryder said:

Uncompetitive - Lucius, Zoraida

Why do you rate Zoraida that badly? Is it just because she's Super squishy to some common things?

9 minutes ago, Stryder said:

Outcast:

Uncompetitive - Tara

Is this simply because Outcasts are so damn hardcore or do you really think that Outcast Tara is really bad?

[PraetorDragoon]

21 minutes ago, Stryder said:

Playable -  Yan-Lo (Borderline Competitive)
 

Teach me your secrets.

[Stryder]

While it's true that the two guild Mc's can be used in a similar fashion, McMourning offers a less card-intensive and more slow & steady approach than McCabe's lightning speed. That's all down to personal preference and playstyle.

And why choose Zoraida or Tara when you can have any of the others? Uncompetitive by default.

[PraetorDragoon]

9 minutes ago, Stryder said:

While it's true that the two guild Mc's can be used in a similar fashion, McMourning offers a less card-intensive and more slow & steady approach than McCabe's lightning speed. That's all down to personal preference and playstyle.

And why choose Zoraida or Tara when you can have any of the others? Uncompetitive by default.

Why did you include a playable tier then? Honestly curious.

[katadder]

think kaeris and mei feng have both done me well at tourneys. 

 

tbh alot of these competitive/playable/uncompetitive are meta dependent and I think alot of people maybe disagreeing with stryder

[Math Mathonwy]

41 minutes ago, katadder said:

tbh alot of these competitive/playable/uncompetitive are meta dependent and I think alot of people maybe disagreeing with stryder

Stryder has a very big meta, though.

That said, I do agree that very few people would rate Guild McMourning above Perdita.

[katadder]

can still be meta specific, alot of differences in what he says to what I and others have seen (mei feng has won me a tourney, kaeris nearly did - both fixed crews in non-fixed crew tourneys)

top player in the UK for example often uses lilith to win yet stryder has her listed as playable (edging competitive) so difference in areas, and even in countries. I think the UKs meta is massively different to the US one for example (and probably bigger as an overall meta compared to many mini metas). dont know where stryder plays

[Math Mathonwy]

1 minute ago, katadder said:

can still be meta specific, alot of differences in what he says to what I and others have seen (mei feng has won me a tourney, kaeris nearly did - both fixed crews in non-fixed crew tourneys)

top player in the UK for example often uses lilith to win yet stryder has her listed as playable (edging competitive) so difference in areas, and even in countries. I think the UKs meta is massively different to the US one for example (and probably bigger as an overall meta compared to many mini metas). dont know where stryder plays

He's the reigning UK Master.

[katadder]

aah blutac  didnt know his forum name. only 12th ranked UK player besides being the master though (and nearly beat his raspy if not for my own stupidity) 

 

still stand by what I say though is its different in different metas and I am even more surprised by some of his choices knowing the people he plays against at tourney level

[Math Mathonwy]

1 minute ago, katadder said:

aah blutac  didnt know his forum name. only 12th ranked UK player besides being the master though (and nearly beat his raspy if not for my own stupidity) 

I'm not saying that his word is the law - it's an opinion among others. But it does have quite a bit of experience and play skill behind it. But I think that it is important to remember that absolute tier lists are impossible to concoct. They are always personal to some degree. Maybe someone has an easy time againt Lilith and doesn't really get her to work when playing and therefore rates her low. I think that's completely justified. These are opinions, not facts.

If you look at Stryder's list, I think that it is internally consistent and he appreciates certain things very highly while he doesn't think that some things are all that. Someone else might think otherwise and be just as "right".

Heck, I still stand behind my list in the first post, after all  

[katadder]

yep, which is why I said alot of people may disagree with him in the 1st post of mine you quoted. 

obviously need to run my mei feng and kaeris crews against him to give him a new appreciation of those masters  

[Math Mathonwy]

Just now, katadder said:

yep, which is why I said alot of people may disagree with him in the 1st post of mine you quoted. 

obviously need to run my mei feng and kaeris crews against him to give him a new appreciation of those masters  

One more thing about his list: he seems to rate Masters into the unplayable category if he considers that someone else in the Faction does the things they do but better. I think that Zoraida is competitive with Neverborn but I can easily see the argument that she doesn't offer enough stuff over Dreamer and Collodi to merit being chosen. So you might win but that wouldn't necessarily prove him "wrong", so to say.

That said, I do like Mei Feng and feel that she has things to offer with her crowd control, movement, and shielding. Not to mention the Foundry models that she can bring.