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Icemyn

An Adepticon Tournament Report - 1st

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I can't say I've encountered this, but I know in 1.5 part of the powerhouse that was Kirai was because of all the Seishin she could hire as low low cost and then burn activations actually doing useful things and then move her crew into place and hit like a truck after anything that could screw the plan up had activated for the turn. Wyrd made Seishin unhireable which I think was the right move. I know Rathnard has been singing the praises of using rats to burn activations for awhile so I'm wondering about what other's perspectives are vis a vis this interaction?

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We've embraced the rat engine for a while now in our local meta. With that said, the ratjoy cruise missile is really where it goes over the top. Killjoy's downside is taking out one model then getting killed. This doesn't happen when the opponent doesn't have any models to activate.

I agree limiting it to Hamelin would help but even then there's some serious play with him. Nick and I have been playing around with the idea of Alyce / Desolation Engine with Hamelin. This coupled with the Ratjoy could provide extremely similar results while doing the rat engine better than both the lists above were.

TLDR the rat engine itself is good, but coupled with being able to throw multiple 13ss monsters (or viks) in your opponents face on turn 1 with no risk of retaliation on that turn is what I think needs to get looked at.

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Thanks for the review and the insight. I was in the Masters at Adepticon, but certainly not in the upper ranks, and reading this makes it clear that I wouldn't be ready for that level of play anyway. :)

I have played against Hamelin a few times (including Saturday), and found the rat activation engine quite frustrating; knowing that it's a problem even at the highest levels of play (and with other Outcast masters) suggests that it's not just my own inexperience that made it that way.

I am curious, though...you suggest limiting the rats and/or Obedient Wretch to Hamelin as a possible fix. Is Hamelin himself sufficiently underpowered with respect to the other Outcast masters that it's balanced for him to use the rat engine while the other Outcast masters can't? If anything, it seems that his synergy would make the rats even more potent under him, without taking anything away from the extraordinary amount of activation control they provide.

Kyle's comment also seems relevant - maybe changing Killjoy so he only unburies when a non-Peon model is killed would be more balanced?

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Hamelin by himself is harmless. Viktorias, Leveticus, Misaki, etc are not. Hamelin needs to be able to out activate as he needs to control the game to have any effectiveness. You kill his one or two beaters and he isn't going to do much. 

Every faction has their own version of the Killjoy bomb. I do think RatJoy is probably the best though. Taking RatJoy away from all the masters except the one master who has one killy model in the whole crew is probably ok. 

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The Hans thing did surprise me, but as I noted in the report you can hide the wretch behind other friendly models as well to deny even the Hans strategy. 

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Is the real issue with activation control or the ability to use it to your advantage to get killjoy across the table on turn 1 after the opponent activated. 

If the the first one then you do need to restrict the rats in some way. 

If the second you can fix it simply by adjusting killjoy in one of two ways:

1. Make it a non-peon model is killed or sacrifice

2. When an enemy model kills or sacrifices a model in this crew. 

According to the above the super activation control only exists for turn 1. After that you only have a rat catcher for your 8 stones of hired rats. 

Although the Wretch can lead to future activation controls but you are trading 4SS (1 Wretch) for 4SS (2 Rats)

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Robk444 Multiple masters can get klilljoy, or other beatsticks across the board turn 1, and I don't think you could restrict them by restricting Killjoy. Molly can do it, Tara can do it. Colette can have Howard there, etc...

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I agree with your conclusions that something or maybe even multiple things need to be done here.  Being an Outcast player, I used the same Wretch and rat tactic in Leveticus lists with Belles to out activate and bring stuff to me to kill.  Making just one of them un-hirable could be a fix and still match faction hiring.

I also support the idea of Killjoy popping out only against non-peon kills as it could only be the next Killjoy bomb is with another faction that gets something just as cheap and fast as rats.

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The problem is not so much that killjoy gets there turn one. It's that he gets there when your opponent is totally activated with no way to reprise during that turn or set up to intercept or anything similar. For many crews their entire crew has activated before anything significant happens for the rat engine player. There are a lot of lists that can deliver heavy hitters on turn one, but typically there is a risk associated with it. killjoy is not quite as scary when you have the ability to react. As it stand the number of crews that can effectively counter this tactic is pretty small.

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Appreciate the write ups.

Sad to see that Hamelin's rats are still causing problems, hope this gets addressed faster than last time.

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Sounds like a pretty degenerate situation. Thanks for bringing it up; we haven't seen it in our local group, but that looks like a landmine waiting to be stepped on. 

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7 hours ago, Icemyn said:

The Hans thing did surprise me, but as I noted in the report you can hide the wretch behind other friendly models as well to deny even the Hans strategy. 

Scout the Field ignores LoS completely.

Hard cover to cancel the focus :+fate could help though as he needs a severe to kill an Obedient Wretch, of course if he has I pay better or Fast for Focus +2 he can mostly likely cheat anyway.

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I think the easiest solution would probably be make rats unhireable and make obedient wretch rat summoning trigger once per turn.

I`ve had so many Wretches throw low crows against Lasarus its not even funny. This model has one of the most reliable summonings and costs 4SS while being a significant minion that is immune to distract/cursed object.

 

NPE all the way.

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hmm having played against hamelin twice in tourneys I hadnt seen this. but this explanation does show the rats to be an issue. especially the cheap minion able to easily summon for activation control.

maybe something will get done, hopefully wyrd will keep an eye on it. having this combo capable with poweful masters such as levi and the viks is the icing on the cake, I like the suggestion of rat kings only forming under hamelin.

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Firstly huge congratulations on winning the event. Winning a large five round event takes a lot of skill any way you slice it.

I agree that the rat engine is very potent. Time will tell if it's potent enough to need cuddling. There does tend to be a knee jerk reaction to whatever the latest trick is, especially after a big tournament.  I'm sure if it proves problematic over time Justin and co will take action.

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I prefer the Rats no being hireable. Because let's face it - you can't use them for anything "legit". It's always a gimmick.

A bit similar to Mindless Zombies - during the first open beta their price fluctuated because they were very breakable if you gave them a "fair" cost and if you made them ridiculously expensive, then there was no point.

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Obedient Wretch alone is also stupid enough that it should have never gotten through testing.

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@Bengt You are correct. I only read it quickly, certainly makes Hans a reasonable counter, so long as you are playing outcasts and win init. 

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