Chiaki and Innocence

[Mistergone]

I apologize if this has been answered somewhere else in the Forums- I couldn't find it.

Here's the scenario: Chiaki is in base contact with the Grave Spirit.  She Gains Armor +2 thanks to  Strength From Below.  At the start of her activation, she uses Innocence to move the Armor Condition to another model.  What happens?

A. The targeted model gains Armor +2 and Chiaki loses Armor +2.

B. The targeted model gains Armor +2 and Chiaki loses Armor +2,  but then immediately re-gains Armor +2 from being in base contact with the Grave Spirit.

C.  Nothing.  Armor +2 is treated as "printed" on Chiaki, making it an Ability rater than a Condition (i.e. not a legal target for Innocence )

D. None of the Above?

 

Thanks!

[solkan]

D.  None of the above.

The Graveyard Spirit's ability:

Quote

Strength From Below: While in base contact with this model, friendly models gain the following Condition: “Armor +2: Reduce all damage suffered by this model by +2, to a minimum of 1.”

So that's definitely a Condition with the name Armor +2.  But Innocence doesn't change the duration of the moved condition.  What is the duration of that condition?  "While in base contact with this model".  Why is that the duration?  Because when you have model standing near the Graveyard Spirit, you can't go "This model performs a walk.  It moves over to a fraction of an inch from the Graveyard spirit, and then spends the rest of its movement repeatedly bumping into the Graveyard Spirit (entering base contact, then moving a fraction of an inch away).  It now has Armor +100." 

Chiaki's Innocence says:

Quote

Innocence: When this model Activates, it may move all Conditions from itself to a friendly Ancestor within 6" and LoS.

So Chiaki activates, uses Innocence, and the Armor +2 condition with the duration "While in base contact with this model" is moved.  That transferred Armor condition then immediately expires (assuming the other model isn't also in base contact with the Graveyard spirit), and the Graveyard Spirit's ability becomes relevant and restores the Armor +2 condition to Chiaki.

Edit:  Note the clause in stacking:

Quote

1) Sometimes a model will gain a Condition that has the same name as one of its Abilities. Abilities and Conditions stack if they both have a value and they have the same name. For instance, if a model with the Armor +1 Ability gains Armor +2 as a Condition, the two effects stack. However, they do not merge (as two Conditions do), so a model that loses the Condition does not lose its Ability.

As far as I can tell, Chiaki in base contact with the Graveyard Spirit using Innocence to transfer Amor to another model in base contact with the Graveyard Spirit would give the model her condition without it expiring immediately, then she'd get Armor +2 again.

 

Edited April 2, 2016 by solkan
Added note on stacking, and the Graveyard Spirit party.

[Ludvig]

6 minutes ago, AoS said:

In fact every condition is ended at the end of the turn if not specified otherwise.

Exactly, and since the effect that put the condition on the new model is Chiaki's ability they should all end at the end of the turn regardless of what end-timing they had when they were put on her.

[Bengt]

4 hours ago, Skillmatic said:

No....Strength from Below is an ABILITY that bestows a CONDITION...Strength from Below is not a condition there for prerequisite for having to be in b2b is not imposed once the Armor +2 condition is removed from Chiaki and placed on an ancestor. No if Wyrd actually says this is false, then they are going to have to rewrite their whole rule book...now you may ask what's the duration? Rule book says any condition without duration ends at the end of the turn. It's really really simple, we as gamers tend to make things harder than it really is nowadays.

What I meant to say was that the armour bestowed by Strength from Below do have a duration because the duration is always written before the condition.

By your reasoning the Chi Yan Lo gains from "Focus Chi", "Harvest Chi", or "Revitalize" is removed at the end of the turn since the duration is only written in the Abilities/Trigger and once those talents have been resolved we are only left with a condition that doesn't mention any duration ("Chi +1: This model adds +1 to its Ca, to a maximum of 3 additional Ca.").

[solkan]

27 minutes ago, Skillmatic said:

I understand what you are saying, but that's not what I'm getting at. I'm isolating the condition from the ability. When Yan Lo gains chi from his abilities then the duration is set. If Chiaki were to take her chi condition and place it on Yan Lo then it would end at the end of the turn. Since the condition itself does not set the duration the ability does, but when you use innocence you are transferring the condition not the condition and ability. You see what I'm getting at? To my point, take blighted for instance.....anytime blighted given to another model it's says, and I'm parphrasing, "...and gains the following condition until end of turn. But if Chiaki was to use Innocence to transfer the Blighted CONDITION then it would end at the end of the turn. I'm probably wrong, but this is a healthy discussion that has me looking at the game a bit different....

What you're describing isn't "transferring" a condition from the original model to the new model, it's creating a new condition (with a duration set by Chiaki) to apply to the new model.

The condition keeps its old duration because you're applying the existing condition.

 

[AoS]

1 Chiaki gains Armor +2 because of the Grave Spirit.

2 Chiaki loses Armor +2 because she remove it to give it to an Ancester.

3 Chiaki gains Armor +2 still because of the Grave Spirit.

BUT other option is:

1 Chiaki gains Armor +2 because of the Grave Spirit.
2 Chiaki cannot remove Armor +2 from her, so she cannot give it to an Ancester.

Maybe second option is more legit.

[Mistergone]

I can understand inheriting the condition's expiration (in this case, being outside base contact of Grave Spirit). Otherwise, the Chi condition she passes wouldn't last until the end of the game.

But I always assumed that the condition only consisted of the text between the quotation marks

[Ludvig]

8 minutes ago, Mistergone said:

I can understand inheriting the condition's expiration (in this case, being outside base contact of Grave Spirit). Otherwise, the Chi condition she passes wouldn't last until the end of the game.

But I always assumed that the condition only consisted of the text between the quotation marks

Hmm... It might actually mean that all conditions passed by her will end at the end of the turn.

[AoS]

30 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Hmm... It might actually mean that all conditions passed by her will end at the end of the turn.

In fact every condition is ended at the end of the turn if not specified otherwise.

[Mistergone]

So I started this thread asking one question, but now it's kind of morphed into another one: Do conditions transferred by Innocence retain their expiration (i.e. Leaving base contact w/ Grave Spirit, or until end of game with Chi +1), or do they all simply last until end of turn.

If it's the latter, then Chiaki's ability really isn't good for moving Chi in a Yan Lo Crew. You're going to activate  Chiaki late to get the most out of Manipulative- probably after all of your other Ancestors. If The Chi is going to disappear at the end of the turn, why wouldn't you just leave it on Chiaki, where it lasts the whole game?

Which makes me think Solkan has the right idea- the conditions she moves with Innocence last just as long as they would have if they were still on Chiaki herself.

 

[Ludvig]

Yeah, it leads to less of a headache and the use of the word "move" isn't defined anywhere as far as I'm aware so you could be argued that the condition is moved and not "applied" or whatever the official term is (thereby keeping it's timing).

[enderwiggin]

Even ignoring the duration restrictions, for a moment, this means theoretically you could stack the effect to Armor +4 to the target if Chiaki and the target were both in contact with the spirit right?

[Ludvig]

4 minutes ago, enderwiggin said:

Even ignoring the duration restrictions, for a moment, this means theoretically you could stack the effect to Armor +4 to the target if Chiaki and the target were both in contact with the spirit right?

Yeah, that seems legit.

[Adran]

I would say that Chiaki moving conditions does not change their end time. I also think you'll find that most people instinctively played it that way. (Since the most common moved condition was probably Chi, and they will then expect that model to keep the chi till the end of the game). 

And yes, this means that you can double up the armour buff from the grave spirit 

 

[AoS]

I'm still not sure about if chiaki can move that condition to another Ancestor while she is in base contact with the Grave Spirit.

Chiaki cannot remove in any moment the "armor +2" condition because she has that condition while in base contact not when in base contact.

So if she dont removes the condition I think that she won't be able to move it to another Ancestor.

And about the end time of the conditions, if the condition doesn't specified when has to end by itself, the condition should end at the end of the turn. My point is to think that Chiaki gives to the ancestors new conditions, loosing the way that they were gained by Chiaki.

Something like: The summoned Izamu is not the same Izamu which was hired.

 

But maybe I miss something.
 

 

[Myth]

This probably doesn't help clarify the situation, but I was thinking about a similar issue with her condition transferring - what about effects like Fast and Reactivate?

A model with Fast gains one bonus AP at the start of its activation, but the condition itself doesn't go away until the end of their activation. If Chiaki is Fast, can she gain a bonus AP, then transfer the condition to another Ancestor?

[Adran]

You resolve activation effects and then generate AP, so she either moves Fast when she activates, or she leaves it on her, and then generates an extra AP 

Page 33 of the small book.

But it ought to work with reactivation. 

 

[santaclaws01]

20 hours ago, Adran said:

You resolve activation effects and then generate AP, so she either moves Fast when she activates, or she leaves it on her, and then generates an extra AP 

Page 33 of the small book.

But it ought to work with reactivation. 

 

Fast goes away at the end of a models activation though. So if she starts her activation with the Fast condition, she generates 1 extra AP and then keeps the condition until she ends her activation.

[Ludvig]

18 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

Fast goes away at the end of a models activation though. So if she starts her activation with the Fast condition, she generates 1 extra AP and then keeps the condition until she ends her activation.

Yes but if she gives it away to someone else she doesn't keep it and since the giving away is before she generates AP only the other model will get three AP. This means you can't abuse it to duplicate fast.

[santaclaws01]

7 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Yes but if she gives it away to someone else she doesn't keep it and since the giving away is before she generates AP only the other model will get three AP. This means you can't abuse it to duplicate fast.

Oh right, innocence is an activation effect.

[Bengt]

1 hour ago, Skillmatic said:

I would say she can move the the armor +2 to an ancestor, but at the end of the turn it would go away. The condition the graveyard spirit grants is not "Strength from Below" but Armor +2 and the wording for the CONDITION does not give it a prerequisite or duration. Since no duration is present then the condition would end at the end of the turn.

No Condition has the duration in its text, the standard for Malifaux is to put the duration before the rules of the Condition. So Strength from Below do have a duration.

[Skillmatic]

3 hours ago, Bengt said:

What I meant to say was that the armour bestowed by Strength from Below do have a duration because the duration is always written before the condition.

By your reasoning the Chi Yan Lo gains from "Focus Chi", "Harvest Chi", or "Revitalize" is removed at the end of the turn since the duration is only written in the Abilities/Trigger and once those talents have been resolved we are only left with a condition that doesn't mention any duration ("Chi +1: This model adds +1 to its Ca, to a maximum of 3 additional Ca.").

I understand what you are saying, but that's not what I'm getting at. I'm isolating the condition from the ability. When Yan Lo gains chi from his abilities then the duration is set. If Chiaki were to take her chi condition and place it on Yan Lo then it would end at the end of the turn. Since the condition itself does not set the duration the ability does, but when you use innocence you are transferring the condition not the condition and ability. You see what I'm getting at? To my point, take blighted for instance.....anytime blighted given to another model it's says, and I'm parphrasing, "...and gains the following condition until end of turn. But if Chiaki was to use Innocence to transfer the Blighted CONDITION then it would end at the end of the turn. I'm probably wrong, but this is a healthy discussion that has me looking at the game a bit different....

[AoS]

What about if Chiaki gains the armor condition from two diferent sources? For example from the Grave Spirit and from Yan Lo. First one especified "while in base contact" but the second one specified "till the end of the turn". Chiaki gains first the condition from the Grave Spirit and after gains the condition from Yan Lo, so if I remember well the condition would have the duration especified by the last condition gained.

With another point of view, if the Grave Spirit's condition is always the last in be gained, then you can acumulate all the armor you want in Chiaki while she is in base contact with the Grave Spirit. (And doesnt seem legit to me)

As you can see, not always the duracion and conditions go hand in hand. In the case, the model selected by Chiaki's ability would gain both conditions regardless of which was the start duration of the first one.

Anyway, Chiaki's Innocence is worded to transfer the conditions as they were gained by Chiaki. In other case the ability would say something like: "A friendly ancestor within 6" and LoS gains all this model conditions, then remove all this model's conditions." In this case the other model would get new conditions from Chiaki ability, (so till the end of the turn).

In the way that Inocence is worded, the conditions would keep their start duration I think.

[Adran]

The FAQ answers this one. If you gain a condition from 2 different sources, you use the end condition from the later source. 

Although thinking about strength from below and this, it does lead to some very strange outcomes. In fact everything about strength from below leads to some very strange outcomes when you try and do anything other than just gain armour from it. 

[Skillmatic]

I would say she can move the the armor +2 to an ancestor, but at the end of the turn it would go away. The condition the graveyard spirit grants is not "Strength from Below" but Armor +2 and the wording for the CONDITION does not give it a prerequisite or duration. Since no duration is present then the condition would end at the end of the turn.

[Skillmatic]

9 hours ago, Bengt said:

No Condition has the duration in its text, the standard for Malifaux is to put the duration before the rules of the Condition. So Strength from Below do have a duration.

No....Strength from Below is an ABILITY that bestows a CONDITION...Strength from Below is not a condition there for prerequisite for having to be in b2b is not imposed once the Armor +2 condition is removed from Chiaki and placed on an ancestor. No if Wyrd actually says this is false, then they are going to have to rewrite their whole rule book...now you may ask what's the duration? Rule book says any condition without duration ends at the end of the turn. It's really really simple, we as gamers tend to make things harder than it really is nowadays.