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Issue about "Secret Flips"


Druso

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Hi!

I writte this because I love TTB ambientation and mechanics (and my players too) but there might be a problem due to the mechanic cards, cheating and flat TN of the enemies that it isn´t in other RPG games: secret flips/rolls.

In other games as a master you can launch a secret roll in order to know if your players can hear that creepy sound of a neverborn lurking behind their backs... but in TTB the players will flip a card and will have the chance to cheat fate, so Im thinking in several ways to solve this.

- Having :-fate to the flip. If you do that, Fated can´t cheat. The only problem is that once you order to flip cards the players will be in tension/alerted, so you but you can fix this doing several flips like that, so the players will not know when is a "true or false" thing.

- Not telling the players the TN, so if you as a fatemaster see that they don´t reach the TN you can always say "hei guy...you just can spend a card of your hand, yes...maybe will be a waste but maybe not and you have the chance to do it".

I have been talking with others Fatemaster and they think like my, that the "secret flip/rolls" issue is a little bad thing that have TTB, but that can be fixed.

 

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I don't know.  This sounds like one of those "I want to touch the deck, bu I'm not willing to pay the penalty" situations.  You want to make a secret flip.  So touch the deck, flip your card, and let the players draw their twist cards.  Done and settled.

If you want to avoid that, you need to reconsider what you're doing.  Why do you want this flip to be a secret?  If there's a Nerborn lurking behind the players' backs, eventually they're going to do something which makes the test directly relevant and thus not a secret, the neverborn is going to do something to make it not a secret, or you're going to say something like "You hear noises in the other room" and the players say "Can we tell what it is?" and it's not a secret.  Likewise, if the player start searching the room, there's no more secrecy required.  If there's no reason for the players to notice the neverborn, then there's no reason for the flip.

 

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Maybe you´re right guys....I´ll think more about this idea. It´s just that I see weird that characters always known the TN for ther flips, this is of course due to the cheating thing since if you can´t cheat you barelly cares about what number you should reach. The problem is that the characters/players know that they fail a flip when they do so, so if they fail a Notice flip (as example of the lurking nephilim) and I told them "you see the street back on you, and see nothing but some dirty trash...maybe the wind pushed it" they know that this is false, but If they don´t know what TN have a certain flip, they will truly believe in that there is nothing on the street.

Solkan, maybe the "I touch the deck for a secret flip... so the player can draw a twist card" is a balanced thing for not knowing the TN.

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36 minutes ago, Druso said:

Maybe you´re right guys....I´ll think more about this idea. It´s just that I see weird that characters always known the TN for ther flips, this is of course due to the cheating thing since if you can´t cheat you barelly cares about what number you should reach. The problem is that the characters/players know that they fail a flip when they do so, so if they fail a Notice flip (as example of the lurking nephilim) and I told them "you see the street back on you, and see nothing but some dirty trash...maybe the wind pushed it" they know that this is false, but If they don´t know what TN have a certain flip, they will truly believe in that there is nothing on the street.

They're fated characters.  They fail a Notice flip, you tell them "You see the street back on you, and you don't see anything."  Because they know what the TN was, they know they missed something, but they also know they missed their opportunity to cheat fate.

Again, they're all fated characters.  Fate (and cheating fate) is one of the central concepts of the game.  "That was your chance, you didn't take it.  Now you'll have to wonder about what you missed" is one of the necessary consequences of that.

Quote

Solkan, maybe the "I touch the deck for a secret flip... so the player can draw a twist card" is a balanced thing for not knowing the TN.

No, balance doesn't really have much to do with it.  As far as the game is concerned, what you want to call a "secret flip" is "Draw a card from the deck and decide what happens."  And the result, as far as the game mechanics are concerned is "The Fatemaster touched the deck, all of the players get free cards." 

That game mechanic is there to push the Fatemaster into doing things according to the game concepts.  Like I wrote, every time you make one of those secret flips all of the players get to draw twist cards.  Your players are probably going to thank you for this, every time.

What it comes down to is that, if this were any other game, you'd be rolling a die rather than making a decision on what happens.  In Through the Breach, you're not supposed to do that.  Either decide what happens, or use the duel mechanics to let chance (the deck) and the players (with their cards) decide what happens.  But if you involve the players, you have to tell them what the target numbers are, otherwise you may as well just get out a die and roll it yourself.

 

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If you really want to do secret notice check, you could just have everyone in the group try a simple duel and count the degrees of success. If there aren't enough, they probably won't notice anything too useful. They will have some sort general idea of how well they did, but if they don't know how degrees of success is enough to notice something really interesting then...

Just like with secret rolls, this will feel forced and weird if you don't do it often enough. If you want to implement stuff like this, you probably want to have the players do some checks even when there is only something of minor importance to notice. That way you can keep them on their toes and guessing what's lurking in the dark. If you aren't doing it to build suspense, you probably shouldn't be doing it at all, or should allow the players to succeed in the duel if they are willing to cheat.

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I've actually taken on Myyra's policy for things like Notice and knowledge checks.  I'll give a super low TN for the bare minimum information the party "needs" to see (something like TN6) and then use margins of success to give them extra bits of knowledge that will be helpful.

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  • 1 month later...

The paradigm in this game is quite a bit different; the FM tells players what IS happening and it's up to them to do something about that. As a FM you don't really need to wonder what MIGHT happen so you can avoid asking for flips to see if something occurs. Even in the case of an ambush you don't need to ask for Notice rolls to see who might be aware. The heroes get ambushed! If you want you could then ask for Notice rolls, with successful flips giving some additional information or maybe granting a bonus to the impending Initiative flip. 

On a personal note, I virtually never call for "passive" Notice checks; I just tell players what their characters can reasonably detect based on their actions and Aspects. I use Notice for when the players initiate "actively" spotting/searching or when they're looking for more information and detail on something they are already aware of.

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  • 7 months later...
2 hours ago, Budoman said:

What is funny is that the Fatemaster's kit is set up with a Fatemaster Screen, but if you never make a secret flip, why do you need a screen?

clearly it exists to stop me reaching across the table and tidying up the fate deck that my players deliberately leave in a mess because my OCD will want to tidy it and then they'll all get to draw a card... 

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29 minutes ago, zeeblee said:

It's also good for hiding campaign notes and secret snacks.

This guy gets it. I really don't want people reading across the table to my neatly printed upside-down notes and seeing what I am about to throw at them. I like my impending doom to be mysterious and sudden. 

Also, hidden candy stash FTW. 

 

But overall, I do not tell the players the TN. Usually they flip, I tell them yes or no. If they ask if a cheat card would help, they tell me the value, then I tell them yes or no - I don't want them wasting good cheat cards if it's not going to work anyway, ruins the fun. 

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  • 2 months later...

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