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Schemes & Stones Master Spotlight Kirai Ankoku


Khyodee

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So happy to see this. I'm also glad the "reading the cards" bit was so short, as that's my least favorite parts of podcasts (besides the talks about how good x or y is). 

I find it interesting Joe likes Sebastian with Kirai, given Those are not Ours! only targets undead. I dont know, I've not tried it. I shouldnt knock it. I'm just not a huge fan. So say like he says, you hire a Canine Remains. You need a 9+ of Crows to get a corpse. So you need to flip it or cheat it. Then, you need a 6 of crows or higher for the Canine Remains. Then the canine needs comes into play with Slow. The new canine cannot dig up a corpse the first turn, but if you're making the original canine remains to do so, that also needs a high crow, at least a 9, and I'd rather get an Onyro for a 9 of crows. Again, havent tried it. I could try the engine, but i cant get around the whole spending 12 soulstones (7 for Sebby, 1 for Those Are Not Ours!, and 4 for the Remains) to reclaim 3-5 soulstones over the course of a game, using mid to high crows, despite the activation advantage and the 3-5 cards it can grant you. It's one of those things I think I need to see in action to see how elegant it may be. I'm not sold on it. 

If I were to run that strategy, I would rather use Muhahaha on Kirai for raising zombies from corpses to be eaten by Sebastian. I practiced this much with a Mortimer in my crew, trying to use him to generate corpses for Gaki/Muahaha so I could summon off of them and use them as activation control. I ran into the issue, like I see above, where if i cant flip well, if I'm pitching a 9+ for a corpse there, then 7+ for muahaha, then 8 for datsue ba, and that's before I even summon anything. It was too card hungry. I even took Mortimer's upgrade to give him an extra cast action. So 13 points tied in that on Morty alone, so I could fresh meat up the field, which ended up not being useful since I rarely had enough undead nearby that wanted to move up since he came to me (Interference). While I dont doubt it can work, it wasnt a safe, consistent play, and had me all over the place scrambling to try to get some use out of him. 

I find it interesting he keeps Spirit Beacon on Datsue ba given her lack of wounds, but Kirai can heal her I guess. Despite it eating a slot, I like it on kirai due to her health pool and keeps people from targeting her too often, given she is constantly surrounded by 1-2 seishin as protection. But I think I may have to change that up! 

I do like the Night Terror trick for summoning. I've been using Necropunks for their built in heal for turn 1 Onyro/Drowned. Then have it leap around and plant markers for Phillip and the schemes. I will have to give that a shot... Flesh Construct too, I like, since he lasts for more summons, plants markers for me, and heals himself slowly. 

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Something you've gotten away from, which I feel should be brought back, and perhaps gone back with those who haven't covered it, is to have your guest go over the weaknesses of the particular master that can be exploited, and general ways in which the master being covered can be beaten. Too many masters come out of your casts sounding unbeatable, that I think those who find the cast who haven't taken the plunge yet, might decide they don't want to play. I think those who have the best understanding of the masters covered should really also help cover the particular weaknesses of a master.

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5 hours ago, MEGAHORSE said:

So happy to see this. I'm also glad the "reading the cards" bit was so short, as that's my least favorite parts of podcasts (besides the talks about how good x or y is). 

I find it interesting Joe likes Sebastian with Kirai, given Those are not Ours! only targets undead. I dont know, I've not tried it. I shouldnt knock it. I'm just not a huge fan. So say like he says, you hire a Canine Remains. You need a 9+ of Crows to get a corpse. So you need to flip it or cheat it. Then, you need a 6 of crows or higher for the Canine Remains. Then the canine needs comes into play with Slow. The new canine cannot dig up a corpse the first turn, but if you're making the original canine remains to do so, that also needs a high crow, at least a 9, and I'd rather get an Onyro for a 9 of crows. Again, havent tried it. I could try the engine, but i cant get around the whole spending 12 soulstones (7 for Sebby, 1 for Those Are Not Ours!, and 4 for the Remains) to reclaim 3-5 soulstones over the course of a game, using mid to high crows, despite the activation advantage and the 3-5 cards it can grant you. It's one of those things I think I need to see in action to see how elegant it may be. I'm not sold on it. ....

Having faced several good players using Kirai in tournaments and having faced Joe in a tournament I have to say he plays Kirai very differently from anyone else I've seen. And as Megahorse says, you really do have to see it in action to see how elegant it is. After Joe thoroughly smashed me with it I decided to try and playout the first turn of his crew's game just to see how all the interactions work and if it was as card intensive as it looked. All I have to say is after testing it a couple times (just the first turn, not an actual game as I'm not a ressur player) I can say that it really is a beautiful machine. You couldn't really take any piece out without needing to change the whole list. And the amount of card draw you get is just crazy... So even though the engine may look expensive, it really is something incredible to see in action.

As I've said I've played other Kirai players using flesh constructs and more common builds and have not had huge problems winning those games. Part of this comes down to Joe being a top player, but part of it just how well this crew enables Kirai to be at her most effective (so many Hanged...). Joe himself will obviously be more helpful at answering your question, but thought I'd just share my thoughts. 

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13 hours ago, Insidiously Mad said:

Having faced several good players using Kirai in tournaments and having faced Joe in a tournament I have to say he plays Kirai very differently from anyone else I've seen. And as Megahorse says, you really do have to see it in action to see how elegant it is. After Joe thoroughly smashed me with it I decided to try and playout the first turn of his crew's game just to see how all the interactions work and if it was as card intensive as it looked. All I have to say is after testing it a couple times (just the first turn, not an actual game as I'm not a ressur player) I can say that it really is a beautiful machine. You couldn't really take any piece out without needing to change the whole list. And the amount of card draw you get is just crazy... So even though the engine may look expensive, it really is something incredible to see in action.

As I've said I've played other Kirai players using flesh constructs and more common builds and have not had huge problems winning those games. Part of this comes down to Joe being a top player, but part of it just how well this crew enables Kirai to be at her most effective (so many Hanged...). Joe himself will obviously be more helpful at answering your question, but thought I'd just share my thoughts. 

Yeah, most of his list seemed like the usual stuff: Izamu, Datsue ba. Lost Love doesnt get alot of love on these forums, but on the Facebook Groups people seem to love him. I'm less than impressed so far. For four points his heal should be a 1/turn, no TN. Guarantee it at least for me. It makes him too swingy. Although in my last game it baited Mei Feng into my claws and I nearly assassinated her turn 1/2!

I can definitely see where it is strong though. Those TN's needing crows is the big worry, although I know Joe doesnt summon too often (except Hanged, and oh man I get why). I'll play it out a few times to see how it works. 

It wasnt mentioned either in the cast, but Sebastian's anti-shooty aura he can put up. It's another TN that needs Crows, but he didnt mention using it. I chalk that up to common sense on our end, he's probably moving Sebby with the crew or planting schemes for Phillip to eat mostly. If it comes up to use it, maybe? 

I'm super happy he uses Phillip like I have been though, as a base to host Take Back the Night on. I typically get to turn 5 with Kirai with 2-4 SS left, and I summon pretty often. Love Phillip. I think it also helps that our playgroup has moved away from "enforcer/henchmen beater spam" and to actually bringing things to help accomplish schemes without just tabling the opponent, so Phillip gains his proper value. 

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hi guys,

I am glad you liked the podcast, sorry it didn't contain all the content you were after. 

i was pushed on here by my friend, as work/family life is a bit crazy at the moment i don't get much time to think. Over the next week i will put some thoughts down and get it on here asap. but will probably be after the weekend as it is the masters and am away for it.

thanks for the compliment Connor, it is much appreciated, especially at the moment.

Thanks again 

Joe

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Great podcast!  

I tried out the build today against a Colette crew in Squatters

Took Show Force, Hunting Party

Maxed schemes, but missed one strat point.  I did manage to deny my opponent >1 strat point though. :) Also, he loves taking Convict Labor.  I don't think he'll ever take that vs me with Kirai again.  He has never scored a single point from it.  Too easy for Kirai to get a model to deny the markers.

My thoughts/questions:

1. Izamu- Decaying Aura...HELL YEAH!  Destroyed Cassandra in one charge!

1a.  Phillip loves eating yummy opponent scheme markers.  Ditching 2 at a time is so much fun!

2.  Digging up corpses with Canine - Only got it to work once, I cheated in a 10Crow for it.  8 Crow is very difficult to get if you have crappy hand.  Maybe it was my order?  I did Canine, Seb, DB, Phillip.  That way I could cycle 4 cards before getting to Kirai.  Is that the order you usually play it?

3.  Overall, fun list to play with.  Had a different slightly different playstyle than I normally use with Kirai but it was definitely fun and effective in the long run.  I did have a problem keeping my auras working for me due to blocking terrain.  That's what I'll work on next game.  Biggest question is just that Canine part mentioned above.  

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16 hours ago, LennyB said:

Great podcast!  

I tried out the build today against a Colette crew in Squatters

Took Show Force, Hunting Party

Maxed schemes, but missed one strat point.  I did manage to deny my opponent >1 strat point though. :) Also, he loves taking Convict Labor.  I don't think he'll ever take that vs me with Kirai again.  He has never scored a single point from it.  Too easy for Kirai to get a model to deny the markers.

My thoughts/questions:

1. Izamu- Decaying Aura...HELL YEAH!  Destroyed Cassandra in one charge!

1a.  Phillip loves eating yummy opponent scheme markers.  Ditching 2 at a time is so much fun!

2.  Digging up corpses with Canine - Only got it to work once, I cheated in a 10Crow for it.  8 Crow is very difficult to get if you have crappy hand.  Maybe it was my order?  I did Canine, Seb, DB, Phillip.  That way I could cycle 4 cards before getting to Kirai.  Is that the order you usually play it?

3.  Overall, fun list to play with.  Had a different slightly different playstyle than I normally use with Kirai but it was definitely fun and effective in the long run.  I did have a problem keeping my auras working for me due to blocking terrain.  That's what I'll work on next game.  Biggest question is just that Canine part mentioned above.  

I think unless Phillip is in danger (like turn 1, when he's safe), you Datsue to plant a scheme, make a seishin, Spirit aura. 

Night terror moves up

Other people activate. Kirai activates and kills the night terror via her summoning like he said, Onyro to do 3 wounds, then Hanged to kill it. It drops a scheme marker.

Phillip goes, eats both markers. And from there you should get the crows you need.

Again, like I stated, I dont doubt joe's ability, but I wonder if because he runs few stones, summons mostly hanged and mostly summons early game, he stones for his crows to hit the Hanged/Summons, and keeps high/mid crows for Sebastian to summon dogs and for the dogs to dig? I'd have to guess.

Whenever I run a Sebastian-free list, Ive been taking seven stones and rarely need them all with phillip. he does amazing card cycling. This includes stones for damage prevention, Kirai's mask trigger, as a free "focus" with kirai's gun, etc. 

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1 minute ago, MEGAHORSE said:

I think unless Phillip is in danger (like turn 1, when he's safe), you Datsue to plant, make a seishin, Spirit aura. 

Night terror moves up

Other people activate. Kirai activates and kills the night terror, giving you your second scheme, summoning off of there. 

Phillip goes, eats both markers. And from there you should get the crows you need.

Again, like I stated, I dont doubt joe's ability, but I wonder if because he runs few stones, summons mostly hanged and mostly summons early game, he stones for his crows to hit the Hanged/Summons, and keeps high/mid crows for Sebastian to summon dogs and for the dogs to dig? I'd have to guess.

Whenever I run a Sebastian-free list, Ive been taking seven stones and rarely need them all with phillip. he does amazing card cycling. This includes stones for damage prevention, Kirai's mask trigger, as a free "focus" with kirai's gun, etc. 

That's how I usually run her as well.  I'll have to try that order out next time.  I did manage to get 2 extra stones so ended up with 5 in the long run.  Not too far off what I normally take with 6 or 7.

 

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25 minutes ago, LennyB said:

That's how I usually run her as well.  I'll have to try that order out next time.  I did manage to get 2 extra stones so ended up with 5 in the long run.  Not too far off what I normally take with 6 or 7.

 

Yeah i think the idea is you're stone cycling your low to highish crows into a card and a stone, while also eating ALOT of AP in the backfield. Once you get two corpses you're friggin set. Otherwise I think you keep Phillip back close enough to eat more scheme markers until he needs to move forward. I'm definitely gonna try it. I think i finally understand it

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Just finished the episode

I've probably faced Joes Kirai list more than most, and we've tried several variations on the list. There was quite a lot of trying to get the first couple of turns activtion order under control. 

Whilst the list seems to have a lot of usual stuff, I would pay attention to how he uses it, as positioning and activation order make a huge difference in the way it plays. 

When you draw 25% of your deck a game, the suited target numbers are much lees of an inconsistancy. Yes, that 9 :crowmight just have got a dog, but the ss gained from it, does allow more high cards to summon hanged. So that the engine seesm to work out cost effective over all for what it gives you. 

I don't think I've ever seen him cast Sebs anti shooting aura, because as a general rule, nothing is going to get more than 1 shot against the group. I've tried, but pretty much everything I've come up with so far hasn't truely cracked his list. Rasputina and Mei Feng Both got close, and had I had initiative is the important turn I might have been able to change the result. 

 

For the Canine trick, part of the order depends on your hand. If you have the hand already to do the corpse digging and the dog re-summoning, then yes, do that first. If you don't have that, then you are better off holding off that part until after you have the cards from Philip. If you have a hand to summon with kirai, then she can be early in the process. If you don't have the hand, then draw as many cards as you can to get her hand. 

I've faced the list 7 or 8 times, and with the first turn typically getting up to 13 cards to look at, (6+2 for a soulstone+ 4 for Philip + 1 for Seb) for her to not get the at least 2 severes is really bad luck. And some turns you get the cards you need for the turn int he opening hand. 

Yes you are right, he is more likely to use stones for Kirai because she can use them, and the Crows for the models that can't use stones. 

 

I was chatting with Joe last night with how to beat the Kirai list. 

Short answer - ( especially relevant if you are going to face him in the masters this weekend). Pick lots of cheap pointless models that you can't score with and he can turn into Gaki. ;)

A longer answer will probably come after the weekend when he has some time, but we've not found any obviously huge flaws. He has only lost 2 games with it over the year, and one of those was against Levi (Ben Crow) when Joe over extended.  ( I think the otere was to neverborn, but I don't know what Joel was playing)

I've managed a draw against it with Lucius, in Guard the stash, and I almost beat with with Mei, but lost the important initiative flip, and then only prevented 2 damage with 2 prevention flips from DAtsuba, when preventing 3 damage would have kept me alive, and allowed my scalding breath to take apart the core of the crew. 

I find it hard to pressure her hand, as she gets the cards easily. Its hard to hurt Kirai, as she easily moves direct damage off her, and ranged damage normally only gets to have 1 shot before its engaged. 

 

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4 hours ago, Adran said:

I was chatting with Joe last night with how to beat the Kirai list. 

Short answer - ( especially relevant if you are going to face him in the masters this weekend). Pick lots of cheap pointless models that you can't score with and he can turn into Gaki. ;)

I will pass on the useful information to my playgroup :D

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Can an extremely aggressive list cause issues for Joe's at all, do you think? A turn 1 fast Vik/Misaki charge cutting the heart out of it by killing one or two key models? It feels to me like losing Phillip, Izamu or, to a lesser extent, Sebastien or Datsue Ba in turn 1 or 2 can put the brakes on the engine pretty hard, at which point it becomes slightly easier for the opponent to play against?

This is, of course, theoryfaux of the worst kind, though. I'm sharing my thoughts so that wiser minds can shoot them down more than anything.

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If I ran into something like this as Outcasts, I'd really prefer to be playing Viks. The game would be over quickly, and it would be very decisive (one way or the other - playing Viktoria is often a bit like flipping a coin, though you can weight it in your favour). In my experience, Hamelin and Von Schill have a hard time against Kirai, and while Levy doesn't really struggle against anyone, the matchup can grind to a bit of a stalemate. Misaki and Tara run into problems trying to stop Kirai's summoning engine, and eventually get overwhelmed. I can't speak to Jack's effectiveness against her.

It would be very interesting to hear Joe's experiences with this list against Viktoria - do she and her sister appear often in the UK competitive scene?

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Well yes, it is going to hurt the list. Its not easy for them to get into the line and do enough damage to make up for the loss of them though, since he probably has a hand that is stronger than yours. In early turns the bubble doesn't really move much, so you need to get to the deployment zone and then get 2-3 attacks to kill one of the key pieces with Misaki or a Vik. 

The more familar the person is with Kirai and the list, the better they are capable of coping without the engine. 

I would say Joe is less reliant on the engine that a typical Nicodem player is on Mortimer generating Corpses. 

 

There are some good Viks players here in the UK. I don't know if Joe has faced any of them this year. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

i have finally got a bit of time to sit and think.

highly aggressive lists are a little bit of a worry, because you can have a rubbish set of flips and loose someone. but seeing as there are a couple of different 'parts' to the list it will hurt but not shut it down, unless you can do it activation 1 turn 1. that being said i have not played against the top 'aggressive' players yet.

i find the 2 biggest issues for this list is timing out, and misplaying. at the masters this weekend i lost 2 key games by running out of time, both against gremlins, which looked like a win had the game gone to turns, and i lost the other by leaving izamu in the wrong place, to get vendetta'd when i took assassinate.

if you can take the fight to this list it struggles as it wants to get a few things up the board to be able to do the damage but also be a jump off point.

the other thing is that if you get a set of bad draws then nothing can help, no summoning and no hitting.

i hope this helps at all, if you have other questions i will try and answer them.

 

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