Kirai tips?

[Obeisance]

So I randomly purchased the Kirai box because I can paint spirits as ghosts in a heartbeat. 

She seems pretty sweet. 

Gonna order Gaki, Datsubae and find some cheap proxies for Night Terrors until they come out in plastic. 

Any tips or articles I can read or listen to on her? 

How do you personally play her? 

 

 

[MEGAHORSE]

There aren't any major blog posts or podcasts yet due to the fact that her spirits werent out in plastic until recently.

Much like Nicodem or Molly, she can function one of two major ways:

1. Summoner
2. Support

Not to say that support cannot summon, or summoner doesnt support, but that they can be built one of two major ways (that i've seen so far and experimented with)

For example, with Kirai, you can take a Flesh Construct (I tried a Necropunk along with it due to its self healing and it worked well) as summoning batteries if you plan on that route. Alternatively, you can use seishin as your summoning batteries and play support, hiring mostly beatsticks and support, and Swirling them in. In either case, I really like Datsue ba as a way to summon Seishin in either build. She also ignores armor, which is nice vs Arcanists.

I'd search this subfourm for topics on her. People are still experimenting. I've yet to play support but I plan to this coming week. She's definitely incredibly strong and resilient. Just incredibly card hungry. Incredibly, between masks for movement and crows for summoning, and mid-high cards for summoning spirits and seishin.

[Obeisance]

Ah, I see your point. She's a newish plastic re release. Well, the stuff she wants, that is. 

I'll buy some random bits and play some games. 

Regarding summoning and rarity.. 

Ikyro is rare 1. She also can sacrifice herself. 

I assume that rare 1 means only one instance on the table, but can be repeatedly summoned? 

[MEGAHORSE]

29 minutes ago, Obeisance said:

Ah, I see your point. She's a newish plastic re release. Well, the stuff she wants, that is. 

I'll buy some random bits and play some games. 

Regarding summoning and rarity.. 

Ikyro is rare 1. She also can sacrifice herself. 

I assume that rare 1 means only one instance on the table, but can be repeatedly summoned? 

Yes. I was typically keeping her around to tie up certain units, although the best play, if you have the cards to spare, can sometimes be summoning her, she spreads Adversary. You activate her next. Swing with a + flip. Spirits move up, if necessary. Sacrifice herself. Let the opponent hit a model again, resummon her, spreading more adversary. It's really up to the situation. Against shooty crews, it's a really unique defense.

I'll let someone more experienced chime in, however, on the rest of your questions or correct/clarify my own answers.

[BigHammer]

I'm only starting out with Kirai myself, so from a beginner's view:
 

- get some Hanged and, when they release, Shikome. Both are key summons for Kirai.

- models that work well as hires with her include Izamu (Spirit beatstick), Philip and the Nanny (for cards, schemes and corpse markers), and Rogue Necromancies (hard hitting, deal out poison from long range for Shikome to exploit).

- maniacal laugh can be pretty hilarious for her; summoning a big pile of mindless zombies gives her more models to use to summon big stuff, for as close to free as she'll ever get, and there are plenty of other shenanigans to be used with them (such as summoning a Seishin off of each one that dies, getting a scheme marker out of them with Datsue Ba's upgrade, and more!).

- for a laugh, try Killjoy with her. The amount of her models that die in places that are perfect for Killjoy to unbury afterwards is pretty high, and she can achieve activation control to have him unbury at the end of a turn pretty easily.

[MEGAHORSE]

10 hours ago, BigHammer said:

I'm only starting out with Kirai myself, so from a beginner's view:
 

- get some Hanged and, when they release, Shikome. Both are key summons for Kirai.

- models that work well as hires with her include Izamu (Spirit beatstick), Philip and the Nanny (for cards, schemes and corpse markers), and Rogue Necromancies (hard hitting, deal out poison from long range for Shikome to exploit).

- maniacal laugh can be pretty hilarious for her; summoning a big pile of mindless zombies gives her more models to use to summon big stuff, for as close to free as she'll ever get, and there are plenty of other shenanigans to be used with them (such as summoning a Seishin off of each one that dies, getting a scheme marker out of them with Datsue Ba's upgrade, and more!).

- for a laugh, try Killjoy with her. The amount of her models that die in places that are perfect for Killjoy to unbury afterwards is pretty high, and she can achieve activation control to have him unbury at the end of a turn pretty easily.

I didnt realize you could summon seishin off of each one that dies, which is pretty significant

i just want to point out that you cant get scheme markers off of them. Per Spirit Whispers

"(1) Spirit Whispers: Until the end of the turn, when another non-peon Spirit is killed within 6",...." the zombies arent spirits, and they are peons. 

The zombies also can be used as awesome ht1 models for Ikyro to pop out from. The opponent may not expect that they can help spawn Ikyro too. 

I'm not a huge fan of running too many non-spirit beaters, as Kirai cant swirl them in place of a Seishin. Ideally you take Izamu and summon/walk a seishin near a key opposing model, then swap it with Izamu. 

 

[BigHammer]

My bad on the scheme markers, I'm still pretty new to Kirai and must have gotten confused with the wording. Probably with the wording that allows you to summon Seishin from them when they die, which, yeah, is pretty awesome.

They do still drop a corpse marker as well, so they can be brought back again and again (even if it's only one, it costs a card 1 higher than summoning a Seishin, then they can be used to summon something big and get a Seishin at the same time when they die; again, expensive in cards as per Kirai, but you get a lot out of it).

Also, being Undead, if your opponent tries to kill them first in order to stop you summoning off them, you can get Ikiryo out of them.

[MEGAHORSE]

5 hours ago, BigHammer said:

My bad on the scheme markers, I'm still pretty new to Kirai and must have gotten confused with the wording. Probably with the wording that allows you to summon Seishin from them when they die, which, yeah, is pretty awesome.

They do still drop a corpse marker as well, so they can be brought back again and again (even if it's only one, it costs a card 1 higher than summoning a Seishin, then they can be used to summon something big and get a Seishin at the same time when they die; again, expensive in cards as per Kirai, but you get a lot out of it).

Also, being Undead, if your opponent tries to kill them first in order to stop you summoning off them, you can get Ikiryo out of them.

Oh yes, it's definitely a powerful action, especially if you're fighting Gremlins or summoning alot of Shikome and the ilk. It's not something I will take every time, but it will be very beneficial for Interference. Kirai has so many strong upgrades just for her, having to choose a third can be incredibly difficult! It's something I dont have with Molly. I always start with Forgotten X, but sometimes just run that and do just fine. Thank you again for the ideas

One thing to keep in mind OP is how powerful Kirai's gun is. Especially with Unforgiven (I think it is) that raises its minimum damage to 3. With the built in crow you're applying Adversary on hit, and if you kill the target and declare the double crow?(or crow-mask) trigger, you get to summon a Gaki. Unlike Nicodem's Decay which is pretty lackluster outside of nailing your own models to heal them (and possibly 2 damage to an opposing mode), Kirai can put out some hurt and it really synergizes well with the rest of her crew. Even if you dont take (unforgiven i think it is?) and take Bloody shears, you can apply adversary, swirl up Izamu, and charge him in off accomplice hitting with + to attack and damage flips for 3 attacks! 

[BigHammer]

With Unforgiven, bear in mind that you either do the +1 damage or Adversary, not both at once, as they're both triggers. 3 minimum damage at range that doesn't randomise is pretty boss, but Accomplice on a summoning Master is also pretty amazing (I think I've used her shears once in about eight games, but Accomplice after every single activation with her).

[MEGAHORSE]

1 hour ago, BigHammer said:

With Unforgiven, bear in mind that you either do the +1 damage or Adversary, not both at once, as they're both triggers. 3 minimum damage at range that doesn't randomise is pretty boss, but Accomplice on a summoning Master is also pretty amazing (I think I've used her shears once in about eight games, but Accomplice after every single activation with her).

oh shoot! It is a trigger! That makes it much less of an auto include in that case. I can see why Bloody Shears are actually worth using now haha... Yeah. In that case... I think I'll be taking Shears much more often i think. 

[Phototropic]

i usually use her to summon a bunch of big guys (hanged or shikome usually) at the start then move into using her malevolence bubble to play mind games and area denial with opponents, and using her movement tricks to score (swirling izamu in  for kills or another model to deliver a message or get double distracts) or prevent their scoring (swirling in to engage to prevent scheming, or swirling out to help remove distract, into the spirit world to get her into their deployment for the scheme whose name i have forgotten). I will still summon towards the end i just find find you can do a lot with swirl and its fun to come up with clever ways to swirl and earn or deny points. but she does have a lot of options being able to shoot, hand out adversary, summon, move, heal, play malevolence games etc.

[Tris]

One quick question concerning the Seishins ability to place themselves into base contact with my leader when she avtivates - does this keep me safe from Candys "Sweets" Aura (which paralyzes me if I´m the first model to activate in my crew), by blocking line of sight, or do they "teleport" to late in the activation sequence?

 

(I thought asking in a Kirai thread would be the best thing, if I`m wrong here please tell me)

 

Kind regards

[Bengt]

7 hours ago, Tris said:

One quick question concerning the Seishins ability to place themselves into base contact with my leader when she avtivates - does this keep me safe from Candys "Sweets" Aura (which paralyzes me if I´m the first model to activate in my crew), by blocking line of sight, or do they "teleport" to late in the activation sequence?

 

(I thought asking in a Kirai thread would be the best thing, if I`m wrong here please tell me)

 

Kind regards

Kirai's controller gets to decide what order "start of activation" effects affecting Kirai are resolved, so yes, you can place Seishin between Kirai and Candy (assuming there is room) before resolving Sweets/Sours. Page 36.

[jonahmaul]

I would say no because Sweets specifies 'when a model activates' not 'at the start of activation' so would happen before you get to do start of activation effects.  It's the same with Fears Given Form which specifically states 'a model which begins it's activation' so even if you get a push out of the engagement of the model with FGF you would still have to take the test because you did begin your activation within it.

[lusciousmccabe]

I think you're taking the damage from Sours regardless because you've already triggered Sours when the Seishin pops up and blocking line of sight at that stage won't stop it.

It's like if you had two models hit with a pulse and after resolving the first model Killjoy shows up to block LoS to the second. Normally he would stop the pulse, but the model behind him has already been tagged with it so it will suffers the effects when it's turn to resolve comes up, even though there's no LoS at that stage.

That's what I reckon anyway.

[Bengt]

23 hours ago, jonahmaul said:

I would say no because Sweets specifies 'when a model activates' not 'at the start of activation' so would happen before you get to do start of activation effects.  It's the same with Fears Given Form which specifically states 'a model which begins it's activation' so even if you get a push out of the engagement of the model with FGF you would still have to take the test because you did begin your activation within it.

That's just an example of Wyrd's inconsistent language use. If you don't place them all in step 1 on page 36 we get chaos, e.g. why would "when" be before "start"?

21 hours ago, lusciousmccabe said:

I think you're taking the damage from Sours regardless because you've already triggered Sours when the Seishin pops up and blocking line of sight at that stage won't stop it.

It's like if you had two models hit with a pulse and after resolving the first model Killjoy shows up to block LoS to the second. Normally he would stop the pulse, but the model behind him has already been tagged with it so it will suffers the effects when it's turn to resolve comes up, even though there's no LoS at that stage.

That's what I reckon anyway.

There is no indication that the Sweet/Sours effects are two step, either you have LoS when you resolve them or you don't. Compare how some effects explicitly say that they are resolved after "the current Action", e.g. Misery. Sours even throws in an "immediately".

[lusciousmccabe]

There's no step in Sours that checks for line of sight after the model has started activating but you are interrupting it to decide what order to resolve things in.

There's nothing in the Seishin's ability to say it stops other abilities resolving so it doesn't matter whether you drop a Seishin in the way at that stage as far as I can see.  You're choosing to resolve Sours after the other thing but you still have to resolve it and take the damage anyway.

[Tris]

Thank you two for your input

- I don`t think that I´m interrupting something as these are two effects which take place at the same instant in the game, both affecting my model, so the rb says on pg. 36 (big one)/ pg. 33 (small one) "resolve "activation" effects" that I as the affected models controller get to choose in which order they resolve.

I choose the Seishin first and if there is sufficient space and models for me I could place them to block line of sight to Candy, thus preventing her effect to affect me legally now.

 

But the problem is the exact timing, and I find it hard to prove either point....

 

Kind regards

 

PS: Maybe we should continue in my thread in the rules question section as to not further disturb this thread?

 

 

[Obeisance]

So what goes into a generalist Kirai list?

Do you find you do much summoning with her in general?

[LennyB]

1 hour ago, Obeisance said:

So what goes into a generalist Kirai list?

Do you find you do much summoning with her in general?

I played 3 games with her in a tournament yesterday. 1-1-1.  First time playing Collodi, so first loss against Collodi.  -.-  Round 2 tie Guild McM, Round 3 big win vs Guild Lucious.

When make them suffer is not in the pool and reckoning isn't the strat I find that I am summoning quite often with Kirai.  Usually have Datsue Ba in the list for a Seishin, then Kirai gets a Seishin.  I use them to summon from unless my Carrion Emissary was nice enough to leave me a Mindless Zombie to use.  Also, I had a bunch of fun in one game where I summoned Ikiryo, wiped out a Guild Hunter, summoned Drowned and Gaki off Ikiryo to kill her, then immediately summon her next activation on the other side of the board.  :-)

I think my base list has started with Kirai (one upgrade depending on situation), Lost Love, Datsue Ba (Spirit Whispers, Spirit Beacon), Carrion Emissary and go from there.  Sometimes I'll swap CE for Izamu or Sloth.  I've been using Crooligans quite a bit as my scheme runners.

[Obeisance]

I don't think Carrion Emissary is out to the public yet? I can't find it in plastic. 

And non spirits see play with Kirai? 

[Tris]

No Emisarys yet and I think it could still take a liitle while until they get to the stores, unfortunately

 

Kind regards

[Pyrflamme]

If you have the metal Avatar for Kirai, it can be fielded as a legal Emissary proxy.

[Obeisance]

What is Wyrd's stance on proxies in tournaments, anyway? 

[Tayne]

It's in the gaining grounds document on page 3 (which I believe will be replaced by the new version in the next couple of weeks but I doubt this'll change). The old avatar models are proxies for the emissaries, there's rules for alternate models like Dead Justice and what they count as. Other than that, models must be official Wyrd products (so you may see puppet wars miniatures) but can be converted.

TOs' often allow proxies for models that have not been released yet, e.g. the wave 3 stuff, but that's not a Wyrd ruling.

 

The gaining ground document can be downloaded from the Organised Play Formats section of this page - http://www.wyrd-games.net/resources