M2e Colette

[Fictor]

For me the FAQ is obious: "non-showgirls miniatures can't be target more than once per turn"

You prevent Howard or Envy prompt, but let x3 Performer, Carlos or Duet that it's good but not OP like in the past.

But for me it's ok let all prompt again ofc  .

[Adran]

There are lots of differences between Prompt and Obey. 

Prompt is easier to cast, and provides more versatility than Obey to the action (because you get that 3" push as well). Obey has the advantage of allowing the attack to target an enemy model. It also lets you target a model you already targeted as long as you didn't make an attack

If you haven't taken the powerful control upgrade both are restricted to 1 attack. With that Upgrade Zoraida can allow something to make 2 attacks against the same target, but she can't make Nekima make 3 attacks like the old prompt could do. 

I'm not sure the typical Zoraida turn has ever been "Obey obey obey", where as I think people played games where Colette possibly did 15+ prompt actions over the course of the game. 

So this hasn't turned Zoraida into a copy of what Colette used to be. 

Colette is Still one of the better Arcanist schemers and support Masters, but she requires much more commitment if you want to build a strong combat list as well. 

[Flint]

Zoraida has other, useful most of the time, actions on her card.

With all new anti-scheme marker models and abilities is it still worth to play on scheme markers?

[Mxbedlam]

The other significant problem with Colette is the increasing amount of "can't be reduced" and "ignores triggers" turns her away from the old Colette can't be killed master that she was in the past. Disappearing Act is good, Prompt is good but Colette just needs....something else to compete anymore. Especially with gg18 headed back to some serious beatdown style play. I love Colette but I doubt she will come out of the box this year. 

[Jinn]

3 hours ago, Adran said:

Prompt is easier to cast, and provides more versatility than Obey to the action (because you get that 3" push as well). Obey has the advantage of allowing the attack to target an enemy model. It also lets you target a model you already targeted as long as you didn't make an attack

Zoraida's obey to charge gives Nekima a 6" move, with flight. That seems far more efficient than prompt ever was. 

 

3 hours ago, Adran said:

I'm not sure the typical Zoraida turn has ever been "Obey obey obey", where as I think people played games where Colette possibly did 15+ prompt actions over the course of the game. 

That's the thing though, with the Will O' the Wisp existing Zoraida can have full Voodoo doll and hemming capability while also, for example, placing within 15" then bewitching Langston with the obey trigger and then obeying with the charge trigger. That is a (1) action that draws you two cards when you use it, probably more when Langston activates as bewitch is not removed until the end of his next activation, and then moves a beater far out of position and then makes him attack twice. This has a 27" threat range ignoring terrain completely.

[Adran]

19 minutes ago, Jinn said:

Zoraida's obey to charge gives Nekima a 6" move, with flight. That seems far more efficient than prompt ever was. 

 

That's the thing though, with the Will O' the Wisp existing Zoraida can have full Voodoo doll and hemming capability while also, for example, placing within 15" then bewitching Langston with the obey trigger and then obeying with the charge trigger. That is a (1) action that draws you two cards when you use it, probably more when Langston activates as bewitch is not removed until the end of his next activation, and then moves a beater far out of position and then makes him attack twice. This has a 27" threat range ignoring terrain completely.

Yes Zoraida's new upgrade makes that Obey by far the most efficient Ap Transfer to any model that doesn't charge for 1. I'm not going to disagree with that unless you want to include the re-activate that Prompt offers. But in General, Obey isn't more efficient that Prompt, just that once per turn trigger from the upgrade that only 1 of the obey users can buy can make it an extra good obey. 

 

[dancater]

I'd like to see Colette get

1. A Showgirl Enforcer that was dangerous - knife thrower, acrobat -martial artist for example
2. More emphasis on illusion and trickery, so abilities to perhaps make enemy models attack each other (similar to an obey) and/or an ability to add a in-game upgrade which copies a minion where one is real and the other false and/or an ability which allows her to create illusionary barriers.  I'd prefer this to simply returning the prompt machine.
3. Perhaps an ability to score multiple schemes (so 3 or even 4) and then elect which ones to score at a point in the game perhaps (a twist in the show concept)

Simply put she and her crew need to first emphasize the show, illusion, trickery aspect more AND more crew flexibility with some sort of solid Showgirl minions/enforcers which can supply missing elements (such as the way Ice Dancers bring speed and schemes to Raspy - but not really to Colette who has that in already).  She needs more powers on her card which reflect this.  So I simply loved the Lucius errata which made him more powerful AND more in character at the same time.

Deeply regret that Book 5 really provided the Star entourage with nothing at all, that was a great opportunity missed.  But perhaps for the better because maybe Colette needs a more foundational rethink.  

[I'm a Teapot!]

When I take a look at gg18 and the direction its facing concerning favouring certain playstyles, there is hope for Colette. Dont mind me and interacting in general is going to be huge. I think we can expect Colette to rise again in power levels, just by a change of playstyle in the meta due to gg18.

Btw, Zoraidas Obey with a charge is once per turn and atking with obey is limited to once per turn for the same model. I've played against the old collette while zoraida was my most played master even before willow whisps. When you get half you crew killed just by the huge skill of prompting a coryphee duet the whole game it gets kinda boring. After being at the bottom for several years, Zoraida deserves some good time and at the same time I'm not a fan of colette being at the bottom, because I think her theme is one of the best in Malifaux, but I think she will rise again with gg18.

[Jinn]

@dancater These are some really awesome ideas!

I don't know if Colette can be fixed by releasing new models for her and I doubt they'd release more upgrades any time soon (I could be wrong though, new upgrades are pretty awesome, just not Colette's) so the only hope is more Errata which I don't feel is too likely. I feel like Wyrd nerfed Prompt so that she could do other things, but those things aren't very good and the new upgrades don't really give her anything useful to do either. 

1 hour ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

When I take a look at gg18 and the direction its facing concerning favouring certain playstyles, there is hope for Colette. Dont mind me and interacting in general is going to be huge. I think we can expect Colette to rise again in power levels, just by a change of playstyle in the meta due to gg18.

The only model in Arcanists with Don't Mind Me are performers (which can go with many masters), none of the other Showgirls have it (not even Colette). As far as interacts go, Sandeep's crews are a lot better at them considering that 1/turn any (non-peon) model within 12" of him can interact as a (0) and either push first or do it while engaged depending on suits. As far as getting scheme markers on the board, the nerf of Practiced Production has hindered Colette more than the other Arcanists in using it for non-LYM purposes (which was obviously busted) as she somewhat relied on placing markers near her doves. With changes to condition schemes/strategies so that they apply to your own models I think that Colette will actually get weaker as one of her strengths was the ability to push a friendly model out of engagements and then (1) action to remove the condition.

1 hour ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

Btw, Zoraidas Obey with a charge is once per turn and atking with obey is limited to once per turn for the same model.

So, you can get Nekima to charge and then attack twice from that and then obey her to attack again (as the original two attacks were due to a Charge Action not the Obey), all for 2AP while a 3SS model does the rest of your voodoo. I've said it before in other places but I wish that the prompt nerf had left it with the same restriction as Obey actions, in that you can't target models who have attacked due to obey that activation. At least it would retain it's versatility for scheming if that was the case and it would resolve the quite common complaint of prompting Langston/Duet into attacking a bunch.

[EnternalVoid]

6 minutes ago, Jinn said:

So, you can get Nekima to charge and then attack twice from that and then obey her to attack again (as the original two attacks were due to a Charge Action not the Obey)

Quick note, if Zoraida Obey's Nekima to charge she cannot Obey her again.  Obey says "A model which performed an Attack due to Obey may not be targeted by Obey again during the same activation."  It does not say if she obeys someone to do an attack action, it says if they performed an Attack due to Obey, which Obeying them to charge will do.  Just wanted to correct that in case one of your opponents was claiming otherwise.

[Jinn]

55 minutes ago, EnternalVoid said:

Quick note, if Zoraida Obey's Nekima to charge she cannot Obey her again.  Obey says "A model which performed an Attack due to Obey may not be targeted by Obey again during the same activation."  It does not say if she obeys someone to do an attack action, it says if they performed an Attack due to Obey, which Obeying them to charge will do.  Just wanted to correct that in case one of your opponents was claiming otherwise.

Are you sure about this? The closest ruling I'm aware of (I don't have an exhaustive knowledge of the FAQ) is the clarification of Sidir's Laugh Off ability in the FAQ which states that he can be obeyed to move, even though it is an enemy action. From that I understood it to be Obey -> Declare walk action -> Move, meaning that Laugh Off doesn't work because it is your own model declaring the action. Would this also mean that if you, for example, obeyed a friendly to leave an enemy's engagement range and they declared a disengaging strike you would no longer be able to declare that enemy as the target of an obey?

I hope there is a consensus against it though.

[WWHSD]

15 minutes ago, Jinn said:

Are you sure about this? The closest ruling I'm aware of (I don't have an exhaustive knowledge of the FAQ) is the clarification of Sidir's Laugh Off ability in the FAQ which states that he can be obeyed to move, even though it is an enemy action. From that I understood it to be Obey -> Declare walk action -> Move, meaning that Laugh Off doesn't work because it is your own model declaring the action. Would this also mean that if you, for example, obeyed a friendly to leave an enemy's engagement range and they declared a disengaging strike you would no longer be able to declare that enemy as the target of an obey?

I hope there is a consensus against it though.

It’s covered in the FAQ:

80) If a model is able to take Charges as a (1) Action and it is Obeyed to Charge, could it be targeted by Obey again during the same Activation if the Charge results in the model making Attacks? No. If any Attacks are made during the course of the model being Obeyed (including Actions generated by other Actions) then it may not be targeted by Obey again during the same Activation.

[EnternalVoid]

LOL, I was typing out a long explanation why and WWHSD found a clearer more official one.  Thank you, I was about half way done *saved me the trouble*

As for disengaging strike, it says may not be targeted by Obey again during the same Activation.  I am not sure if that would prevent it as they were never targeted in the first place by Obey to trigger the whole ruling.

[Jinn]

@EnternalVoid & @WWHSD Thanks for the correction then.

This makes me even more baffled about the ruling on Laugh Off though. I suppose the difference between the two is the phrase 'due to' which must mean that even an action that caused the current action counts.

I really wish Laugh Off worked against Obey though; my last game against Zoraida involved my Bewitched Katanaka Crime Boss charging into and killing my Terracotta Warrior, incidentally these were the only attacks he made that game.

Now, back to Colette talk. People probably don't want Prompt to be buffed (I'd prefer other cool abilities as well) but I had an idea that would be a cool improvement to its current form. If Colette got a 3" push in any direction whenever she prompted something she would gain the mobility to actually keep up with her crew. I love the image of Colette's prompt being a dance of friendly models which Colette takes part in.

[dancater]

5 hours ago, Jinn said:

@dancater These are some really awesome ideas!

I don't know if Colette can be fixed by releasing new models for her and I doubt they'd release more upgrades any time soon (I could be wrong though, new upgrades are pretty awesome, just not Colette's) so the only hope is more Errata which I don't feel is too likely. I feel like Wyrd nerfed Prompt so that she could do other things, but those things aren't very good and the new upgrades don't really give her anything useful to do either. 

 

Thank you Jinn,

I agree that new models is a band aid solution making the Showgirls crew stronger but failing to fix the basic weakness in Colette herself.  

Equally I doubt they will have new upgrades.  Sadly true and not unreasonable.

Having said that I am hoping (a) and unlikely, that they may do a comprehensive errata, and (b) failing that at least the folks at Wyrd can read this thread (and I am certain they do) and take some ideas for Colette going forward, there are a lot of smart players providing some good ideas.

Its a bugger of a trial to balance a game with so very many moving parts this I know, I appreciate Wyrds efforts and I'm just sad that at the moment Colette is on the ebb but she'll be back, sure and certain and I'll wait for the show.

 

[Jinn]

I had an idea for a Colette ability that I like the look of.

My Show: Models within 10 of this model may not take actions outside their activations unless they were caused by this model.

The aura is probably a touch too large and it might be cleaner if it was just enemy models (you could remove the caused by this model clause) but as it would include disengaging strikes as well as obeys it would encourage placing Colette further up field. Perhaps 8 would be more balanced.

[Flint]

1 hour ago, Jinn said:

I had an idea for a Colette ability that I like the look of.

My Show: Models within 10 of this model may not take actions outside their activations unless they were caused by this model.

The aura is probably a touch too large and it might be cleaner if it was just enemy models (you could remove the caused by this model clause) but as it would include disengaging strikes as well as obeys it would encourage placing Colette further up field. Perhaps 8 would be more balanced.

Interesting, but it would cause some negative side effects as well, like block any Prompt made by Cassandra (Understudy).

[retnab]

Just change "unless they were caused by this model" to "caused by this Crew" and that'd sound pretty solid to me!

[KingCrow]

That would actually be amazing! Especially since there has been an increase in giving model's actions or movements outside of their activation's over the past year or two.  It would be especially good vs Neverborn.

What if it had some sort of conditional effect?  Such as if models within the 8 inch aura did take an action outside of their activation, they had to discard two cards or Colette heals 2/draws 2 cards/place a scheme marker etc...?  I feel like the healing and/or scheme marker placement would be good if you wanted to play a tanky version of Colette with her new damaging upgrade.

But the just no actions within so far is really powerful too.

[Primarch]

Well, having read the last few pages, this sucks.  I haven't played since 1E, so after jumping back in tonight, I had no idea how to play Colette anymore.  I played against Ten Thunders crew with 3 Samurai that just gunned me down super easily.  I barely remembered any of the rules from the past which is a good thing I guess, since everything is different now.

Collette
Casandra
3 Mannequins

3 Performers

2 Coryphee

Duet

Some blonde gal with 2 pistols, cant remember her name, and I have the old metal models so the pictures don't entirely matchup.

Anyway, I was fairly ran over though did some damage in the process.  Totally different than I remember the Collette crew playing, and reading here, not many folks consider that list of models mostly worth using anymore.  Guess I will see what's up with my Outcast or Neverborn crews?  Lol...

[dancater]

One of the things I'd love to see is a mannequin model which could be modified so basically a construct (although it could as easily be living, called the stage hand or stage assistant) with base stats which then had an ability called "Change for the Next Act" where you can summon a different 'set' of stats and attacks so in one form perhaps it attacks in melee with knives while being armored (armored for the stage) while in another form it throw daggers and is hard to hit with ranged attacks (swirl of the curtain).  You can summon once/round it cost (1) action and this does not make the model slow (already costing 1).

So this changes the attack vectors and gives the model different triggers.  I think this would be a nice mid-range SS cost attack Showgirl.  Add maybe a wreathed in fire on Df trigger for the melee outfit which adds Burning and a similar the breathe of flame (0) attack to give Burning to ranged outfit.  Make them fast and give them a skill called whisper from the assistant tactical action which lets a Showgirl model within 8 inches to place a Scheme marker.

This would be great for Colette a mid-range genuine damage dealer which fits the theme but lets the Star entourage hit hard when needed.  Thoughts? 

[Jinn]

@dancater I really like the idea of changing actions on a model and Wyrd have been experimenting with it a bit recently. Draugr have a changing Ht stat that also changes what several of their actions do and what abilities they have. Within Arcanists Ferdinand Vogel can change forms for a completely different model with an entirely different role. Also in Arcanists, we have Kandara who changes her upgrade to do different things. Three separate ways of achieving a transforming effect, and Wyrd's new game The Other Side is based around flipping to Glory which changes stats and abilities.

I like the idea of changing a model's stat card throughout the game, although the key issue is whether your opponent can reasonably keep track of what your model is capable of. I think Kandara's upgrade mechanic would probably work best for this kind of thing, although I could see Ferdinand Vogel's summoning mechanic working as well.

[dancater]

Thanks for the support Jinn.

Must admit that perhaps the key would be recognizing what the model is on the board.  I figure make the Rare 2 and sell a box containing 4 mini's on 2x 30mm bases and 2x 40mm bases so basically an expansion on the Vogel idea.  The 30mm bases play as the melee models tight, compact and defensive while the knife throwers are a leaping swirl of blades and cloth; but you could as easily flip that or have them all on 30mm bases, but having different models would open some extra movement tricks and more importantly clearly differentiate which "outfit" option you have active - interesting idea is to have perhaps a male knife thrower matched with a female blade dancer and then a male blade dancer matched with a female knife thrower reflecting on the ambiguous nature of the stage and male/female acting roles (mainly men playing women at the time historically but several prominent examples of disguised women exist as well) in the 19th century and also making the models fit superbly with both the traditional Colette and Nightmare Colette crews.  You could also make the knife throwers either male or female and the blade dancers the opposite to even further separate them, but I like the mix.

Its just an idea but agreed Wyrd has been running this concept a little bit, the Showgirl crew clearly has a mid-range solid damage hole and this switching back and forth idea seems to really fit in with the idea of actors performing multiple roles in a show.

Of course I acknowledge this makes it expensive to purchase 4 models in order to field 2.  That is a negative but thus make them Rare 2, that caps it.  Also include a Showgirl affinity so perhaps the switch needs a trigger card which is automatic if the crew master is a Showgirl (so Colette, called 'The mistress provides direction').  I suggested the Burning affinity because with Carlos there is a little bit there, you could perhaps include a poison trigger instead or in addition, I like the idea of a trigger on Df/Wp an successful defense "Poisonous critique" gives Poison +1 condition to opponent. Make the Blade Dancer benefits from the Df trigger and the Knife Thrower the Wp trigger as well.  Aiming to have the models between 6-8 SS, its a loaded area but make these niche mainly for Showgirls as an option instead of Dec Acolyte (and Gunsmith, but lets be honest we all take the Acolyte).

   

[WWHSD]

3 hours ago, dancater said:

One of the things I'd love to see is a mannequin model which could be modified so basically a construct (although it could as easily be living, called the stage hand or stage assistant) with base stats which then had an ability called "Change for the Next Act" where you can summon a different 'set' of stats and attacks so in one form perhaps it attacks in melee with knives while being armored (armored for the stage) while in another form it throw daggers and is hard to hit with ranged attacks (swirl of the curtain).  You can summon once/round it cost (1) action and this does not make the model slow (already costing 1).

So this changes the attack vectors and gives the model different triggers.  I think this would be a nice mid-range SS cost attack Showgirl.  Add maybe a wreathed in fire on Df trigger for the melee outfit which adds Burning and a similar the breathe of flame (0) attack to give Burning to ranged outfit.  Make them fast and give them a skill called whisper from the assistant tactical action which lets a Showgirl model within 8 inches to place a Scheme marker.

This would be great for Colette a mid-range genuine damage dealer which fits the theme but lets the Star entourage hit hard when needed.  Thoughts? 

I love the idea of getting a new minion showgirl that can take advantage of focus. That would make Audience Particiapation a much better upgrade for Colette. It would be even better if the the model had some sort of alternate use for focus.

The shifting role idea is cool but I think I’d want to stay away from a summoning mechanic, especially with the way the strategy “Ours” in GG18 deals with summoned models.

If the model is living, Seamus can hire and summon it. If it is a construct Leveticus could hire it. Having it’s role changing be a function of switchable upgrades would be a nice way to keep something that the model does only available when taken in Arcanist crews.

[dancater]

All good points WWHSD.

You could make the model Rare 2 Enforcer with 2 unique upgrades each with the name Stage Costume - one Blades and Steel say and the other Knives and Cloak then have the base enforcer card include a (1) tactical action called Change for the Next Act - model can switch Stage Costume upgrades.

Then have some selection of the various special rules and attack actions mentioned.

Also give the model By the Mistresses Direction when this model is in a crew lead by a Showgirl master it gains +(insert useful suit here, probably tomes or  mask or even both) to all duels when it is focused.  This would mean that the models benefit in any Colette crew but gain extra benefit with her new upgrade as well.  It also means that the model can potentially benefit defensively from the extra suit to Df/Wp duels while it is focused, so outside activation, as a small extra defensive trick.  

Finally give the models (in either Blade Dancer melee or Knife Thrower ranged) a trigger of their primary attack (I'd say off mask or tome depending how you want to go) called Mesmerizing Blades that can hand out Slow condition and another trigger called Fatal Distraction (off again mask or tome I think)  +1 Damage/suit in the total if the target is slowed.  This gives them further benefit from Colette and her Saber Trick plus the Book 5 upgrade which links to it.  Trash my suggestions for Burning damage and triggers for these.

Retain the trigger on Df/Wp an successful defense "Poisonous Critique" gives Poison +1 condition to opponent and again off either mask or tome.  

That would seem to work and thinking about it I'd prefer a living model to a construct.  But you could even go a step further and make it switch between living (ranged) and construct (melee) with the upgrades - although I think this is ++ complication for only + cool value.