M2e Colette

[spooky_squirrel]

9 minutes ago, Boomstick said:

As to what I'd recommend you add to you your hiring pool next: something for the Mech Rider to summon. Lately I've been preferring steam arachnids or fire gamin (I know, I'm against the Internet wisdom on the latter, but a well placedesigned magma-spit has helped me more often than it hasn't). In either case, I'd suggest getting the crew box they come in. Ramos' box for the spiders will also have Joss and Howard, which pretty much any Arcanist crew loves. Kaeris' will have the Firestarter, whom I don't think I've ever taken with Colette,  but he's nice to have in the bag when you need someone cheap, fast, and schemey.

I'm also a fan of summoning in Steam Arachnids and Fire Gamin from the Mech Rider. The ranged attack isn't necessarily very powerful (though it's nice when it works), but having a scheme runner that explodes on death can be very amusing, especially if there are other things going on that capitalize on burning. Steam Arachnids are a -fixer for Arcanists, as they reduce the Df of things they're in base to base contact with. This comes in really handy when you're using models that have a good damage spike potential.

[Boomstick]

13 hours ago, aquenaton said:

Just played my firt game with Colette, and it was against Shenlong with Katanaka team and emissary without much terrain... the poor ladies really suffered. Even though, it seems like an awesome crew! I personally was paralized by the options! so many things to do with my AP! The mobility! Also, a reactivating Colette can be a very nasty hitter if surrounded by markers (managed to kill shenlong and disappear after that.

Glad to hear you enjoyed,  despite hardship!

The lack of terrain I find especially noticeable with the showgirls, even moreso against Shenlong's snipers, I'd imagine. Definitely have buildings or forests to block LoS next time.

My first five or so games with Colette, looking back, were developing "macros" for the different things she can do, instead of thinking of 1AP 2AP 3AP, etc. Especially since with Prompt it can lead to some crazy interactions between your other models that would normally take multiple activations. Especially with her and Cassandra, there's some nonsense there (first turn: have someone 0 a scheme next to Colette, have Cassandra hit Colette and push her 4", then Colette's Df gets rid of the damage and she places within 6". If you really want to add to this,  Cassandra can 0 a scheme, hit Colette again and take her Understudy trigger to Prompt or teleport before Colette's Df comes into play again).

My old roommate would consistently glaze over and go get a drink while I decided what to do. Not so much anymore. 

Practice(d Production) makes perfect. 

I haven't had much chance to try out Colette as a beater, but I have a mental image of her teleporting in and finishing off a few models to help out her crew. Particularly with A Lady's Secret to keep that marker to help out. Any more details to add to your account of Colette getting up close and personal?

[Flint]

Now You see me Requires suffering damage = loose duel. You cannot use df triggers when choosing to loose duel (small manual p.27).

[Boomstick]

7 hours ago, Flint said:

Now You see me Requires suffering damage = loose duel. You cannot use df triggers when choosing to loose duel (small manual p.27).

That's what I thought when first playing her too. But the box on pg 27 only stops Df triggers if you relent. So don't relent, flip cards as normal. It can be card intensive, but generally this trick is only useful first turn as an easy way to get up the board quicker, and most deployments will have you far enough anyway rim your opponent that cheating in a low mask for Colette won't hurt your hand in a noticeable way.

[Flint]

On 13/01/2017 at 1:42 AM, Sordid Strumpet said:

1) if you didn't need to set things up, it'd be too powerful. Every ability needs to have some sort of disadvantage - generally speaking its range or its cost (suit/card/AP etc.). The cost of an ability (i.e. needing to "set it up" or, in other words, having to plan for it) is a very common way of balancing auras and the like that hand out buffs. Your argument is therefore invalid as the weakness you point out is in fact one inherently built into virtually every ability.

2) How is the free suit in any way not a very valuable ability to have? You seem to always demand that an ability be more powerful for some reason, but there is no clear reason why it should be more powerful other than that it would be nice if it were more powerful.

3) Again - having a limitation on it does not make it useless. Your argument is once again invalid - what would make the ability balanced or useful in your opinion? Getting a free dove every turn? Yes, like all abilities it has a cost associated with it. And thanks to the ability you lambasted in 2), you get at least one dove for free every turn if you want it - more if you draw a high-ish mask. The dove only needs one AP after being summoned - its buff is a 0 action. 

The reason that prompt was overused is that it is a blindingly obvious way of making something powerful even more powerful, it's as simple as that. If you have a choice between one ability that almost always pays off and requires little to no set up, the temptation is to use that ability over and over rather than other abilities that require a bit more thinking. Unlike other obey-type abilities, prompt has a lower cost (obeys require 8 most of the time, and sometimes an extra suit) and it hands out what's practically 1.5 AP (half a walk action that's arguably better in most situations) and another action.

 Allowing it to target show girls without limit still lets you prompt the Coryphee duet three times, and that could almost be considered worse than prompting Howard three times. 

Perhaps you need to play Colette a bit more to understand how powerful her other abilities are, because people who have a significant amount of experience playing her (including highly ranked UK players) agree that the change was warranted and does not diminish her power. So unless you know better than them how to play her, you might consider the possibility that the reason few people agree with the opinion that Colette was weakened too much is quite simply that this opinion is incorrect. 

 

Ad 1 Will You compare amount of preparations required for using for example Wicked Wines with All Together Now? And even markers spamming, which I believe I already said, but seems that nobody of You read so here it goes again: 0 actions for dropping marker but requires distance 4" from another, so You need to move or use mannequin - hire mannequin, activate mannequin, activate mannequin's ability, survive with mannequin until another activation and so on. Slightly different than just go in range and use ability.Besides how many markers can You really throw in Colette's 8' bubble? Remember about 4" distance of each other and keep in mind that throwing markers behind is mostly useless.

Ad 2 At least it is not a free SS any more... Ok, free suit BUT it is still under condition: You need to have at least 1 SS left. If there happen that You will need to use all SS early in the game this ability is gone. 

AD 3 Never said that Prompt is useless now so this argument cannot be invalid since there never was one. I already wrote what could make it more balanced: reduce multiple prompt to showgirls only (single prompt per turn for any other models). Since when Colette has free dove every turn? Is that ability printed on card and then it's cost is 0? Does it not require spending AP? Does it not require quite high card and suit? Do Colette has free suits anytime without any conditions to summon doves?

Prompt was overused because it was easiest and most versatile ability Colette had. Other Abilities are too situational and/or resource draining. It is as simple as that. 

Comparing Prompt and Obey is pretty much pointless since these abilities are different: Obey may be cast on enemy models as well. Prompt is limited to friendlies only.

Why prompting Coryphee is worse than Langston? Everybody were complaining about Langston prompt, not Coryphee prompt. There must be reason why. Maybe because Coryphee is a disruptor and not a killer (no abilites that could ignore Hard To Wound, Hard to Kill etc). Maybe because it's quite fragile - conditions kills Coryphee quite easily, 7 wd for 14SS model...

Your last phrases are quite sad, it states: who am I to discuss. Sounds like I should shut up and agree with elder and smarter. That's the reason of forum existence, isn't it? Why instead You give me some ideas how to utilize effectively other abilities considering it's high cost in SS, AP, high cards and suits? That would work so much better than calling on experienced players authority.

Also telling that some argument is invalid does not make it invalid. Proving it does. 

[Squirrelich]

Semi random question, how often do people have all the doves out on the board at the same time?

[Mxbedlam]

9 minutes ago, 7thSquirrel said:

Semi random question, how often do people have all the doves out on the board at the same time?

Very rarely, honestly. They usually get blown up the turn they come out. 

[Mxbedlam]

So what's everyone's thoughts in playing Carlos, 2 union miners and Rail Golems into Colette since the errata has made the miners better?

[Boomstick]

40 minutes ago, 7thSquirrel said:

Semi random question, how often do people have all the doves out on the board at the same time?

I might have all three turn one. Usually hire one,  summon two if the cards are right,  use her other AP to facilitate some movement shenanigans. Other than that I find myself with two cycling most of the game.

[Boomstick]

8 minutes ago, Mrbedlam said:

So what's everyone's thoughts in playing Carlos, 2 union miners and Rail Golems into Colette since the errata has made the miners better?

I've tried this minus the rail Golem and it works wonderfully. Charges up Carlos, helps scheme, and makes using All Together Now require much less effort to be a big return on Colette's 2 AP.

[Flint]

For activation control I am trying to have all three doves in 2nd turn.

[spooky_squirrel]

5 hours ago, Flint said:

Ad 1 Will You compare amount of preparations required for using for example Wicked Wines with All Together Now? And even markers spamming, which I believe I already said, but seems that nobody of You read so here it goes again: 0 actions for dropping marker but requires distance 4" from another, so You need to move or use mannequin - hire mannequin, activate mannequin, activate mannequin's ability, survive with mannequin until another activation and so on. Slightly different than just go in range and use ability.Besides how many markers can You really throw in Colette's 8' bubble? Remember about 4" distance of each other and keep in mind that throwing markers behind is mostly useless.

Before you accuse others of not reading, ensure that you've read what has been said as well. I've stated, in this thread, that you can use a Union Miner to set up All Together Now in one activation. Here's how you do it, which almost completely ignores the 4" limitation you're looking at here:
Union Miner is a Minion, so if it is with 8" and LOS of Colette, it can interact as a (0) to drop its first Scheme Marker. Then it uses False Claim twice, putting four more scheme markers on the table anywhere within 3" of the Miner. There are now five scheme markers on the table from one activation. If you're worried that your opponent will interfere, Colette goes next, calls All Together Now. Miner discards the scheme marker it dropped as a (0) and throws two more markers out anywhere within 3", leaving 6 markers available for the rest of the crew to use for an AP.
Two activations into Turn 1 and Colette's pulled 3AP out of a Union Miner, and 1AP each out of up to 6 more models, and still has an AP left to do something like summon a dove, and can (0) to drop a scheme marker.

Wicked Vines does different work than All Together Now. It targets a single model and takes away their ability to walk/charge while it's in play. It's a condition, and can be ignored by things that ignore conditions and removed similarly. Comparing it to an AP multiplier is apples and oranges.

 

2 hours ago, Mrbedlam said:

So what's everyone's thoughts in playing Carlos, 2 union miners and Rail Golems into Colette since the errata has made the miners better?

Carlos and a Union Miner, certainly. I'm not sure I want to drop a Rail Golem in, since the space it occupies has other options that work better with Colette in general or otherwise don't need support. Carlos is amusingly hard to kill, especially if you get his burning up nice and high and can keep a card in hand for his Stunt Double ability.

[Mxbedlam]

@spooky_squirrel don't feed the trolls and they go away. 

I was thinking Rail Golem because of all the burning the union miners and carlos will throw around. Leaves Colette to prompt other options

 

[Flint]

43 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

Wicked Vines does different work than All Together Now. It targets a single model and takes away their ability to walk/charge while it's in play. It's a condition, and can be ignored by things that ignore conditions and removed similarly. Comparing it to an AP multiplier is apples and oranges.

Statement was that every ability requires setting things up. This was to compare not effects but amount of preparations. 

About All together now, indeed I missed Your ideas using it with Miners, sorry for that.

[spooky_squirrel]

11 minutes ago, Mrbedlam said:

@spooky_squirrel don't feed the trolls and they go away. 

I was thinking Rail Golem because of all the burning the union miners and carlos will throw around. Leaves Colette to prompt other options

I'm thinking that the Rail Golem would work wonders with some support from a couple Steam Arachnids reducing the Df of targets, which takes my crew concept in a different direction than Colette normally goes for me*. Carlos burning can be really rewarding, but also really risky. If I burn my hand too fast (or my opponent burns it for me), Burning +6 is going to be a real problem. Conservative hand use can help a lot and I love having uses for every card in my hand, even if it's "discard to X".

I'm a fan of starving trolls out, but I'm concerned about prospective Colette players running into the combined effect of people whinging about the cuddle on one side and people saying "git gud" on the other. I'm in the camp that likes the change because I believe that it is good for the health of the game (does not necessarily mean good for Colette), and that it will help people that want to play Colette learn more nuanced ways to play her (and Malifaux in general). I realize that it may make me sound like I'm saying "git gud", but I'm offering up things that I've used in game that have scored me VP and given me the ability to shift momentum in my favor.

* Of course, Colette's crew concept has shifted to a Show on Ice variant for me, so maybe it's not too much of a stretch to have the Animatronics Incorporated concept congeal.

On the Doves question: Envy with positives on damage. I will never have all three doves on the table for any length of time because of things like that.

[MetaphoricDragn]

20 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

I'm thinking that the Rail Golem would work wonders with some support from a couple Steam Arachnids reducing the Df of targets, which takes my crew concept in a different direction than Colette normally goes for me*. Carlos burning can be really rewarding, but also really risky. If I burn my hand too fast (or my opponent burns it for me), Burning +6 is going to be a real problem. Conservative hand use can help a lot and I love having uses for every card in my hand, even if it's "discard to X".

I'm a fan of starving trolls out, but I'm concerned about prospective Colette players running into the combined effect of people whinging about the cuddle on one side and people saying "git gud" on the other. I'm in the camp that likes the change because I believe that it is good for the health of the game (does not necessarily mean good for Colette), and that it will help people that want to play Colette learn more nuanced ways to play her (and Malifaux in general). I realize that it may make me sound like I'm saying "git gud", but I'm offering up things that I've used in game that have scored me VP and given me the ability to shift momentum in my favor.

* Of course, Colette's crew concept has shifted to a Show on Ice variant for me, so maybe it's not too much of a stretch to have the Animatronics Incorporated concept congeal.

On the Doves question: Envy with positives on damage. I will never have all three doves on the table for any length of time because of things like that.

Could you elaborate more about your Show on Ice lists?

[spooky_squirrel]

15 minutes ago, MetaphoricDragn said:

Could you elaborate more about your Show on Ice lists?

Silent Ones, Ice Dancers, and Ice Gamin are all Minions. Luther (Blessed of December) is the Enforcer. Luther brings Subzero.

Typically I'll have Ice Dancer, Ice Gamin, and Luther maneuver for a flank, with Bite of Winter and Subzero making them nasty in close combat on attack and defense. With the Work the Crowd (0), the dancers don't need to be inside Colette's bubble to drop a scheme marker as a (0), and with their momentum, I can push them to jam deeper, or break away to support Ice Mirror shenanigans from the Silent One(s). The Silent One(s) will play the part of mini-Raspies that can (0) to drop a scheme marker, eat doves for positives on damage, and benefit from both Prompt and All Together Now and the forward maneuvering Ice Dancers, Luther, and midfield Ice Gamin to put some serious pain out out of activation.

I've flat-footed some opponents with it, especially since the Ice Dancer, Luther, and Silent Ones all spike damage hard. It was something I started playing with under the Collect the Bounty constraint of limiting bounty value while maintaining lethality.

 

[edit] If you squeeze in Arcane Conflux with the Emissary, the added positives on the attack increase the effectiveness of the minions. It would likely involve swapping out with Luther/Blessed.

[MetaphoricDragn]

1 minute ago, spooky_squirrel said:

Silent Ones, Ice Dancers, and Ice Gamin are all Minions. Luther (Blessed of December) is the Enforcer. Luther brings Subzero.

Typically I'll have Ice Dancer, Ice Gamin, and Luther maneuver for a flank, with Bite of Winter and Subzero making them nasty in close combat on attack and defense. With the Work the Crowd (0), the dancers don't need to be inside Colette's bubble to drop a scheme marker as a (0), and with their momentum, I can push them to jam deeper, or break away to support Ice Mirror shenanigans from the Silent One(s). The Silent One(s) will play the part of mini-Raspies that can (0) to drop a scheme marker, eat doves for positives on damage, and benefit from both Prompt and All Together Now and the forward maneuvering Ice Dancers, Luther, and midfield Ice Gamin to put some serious pain out out of activation.

I've flat-footed some opponents with it, especially since the Ice Dancer, Luther, and Silent Ones all spike damage hard. It was something I started playing with under the Collect the Bounty constraint of limiting bounty value while maintaining lethality.

Thank you.  I've played 'Tina a lot so i'm fully loaded on frozen heart.  I wound up with a cheap Collette box so Showgirls on Ice has been in my head for a little while.

[Frozen Feet]

December says:

I do love shows on ice. 

[Mxbedlam]

@spooky_squirrel this is very similar to my normal Colette list but I have a hard time letting go of Envy as my Enforcer. He's so damn good. 

[Squirrelich]

Asking a follow up as I try to plan my paint queue. How often are two Performers on the field? Two Mannequins? Mech Rider can summon them right? I ask because usually when I get 3 models to a box I only ever need 2 regardless of Master or situation with the only exception sometimes being summonable models, but these things came two to a box... so I don't know how to respond to them.

Thank you all who are taking the time to help me.

[Bengt]

Mech can summon mannequins but it will be at 1 Wd so its +3 armour does nothing.

[Mxbedlam]

I almost have 1 performer and will take Mannequins if I really need the markers to be tossed at range (Set up comes to mind). It would take a pretty interesting scheme pool to run 2 performers and 2 mannequins. Not to say it can't be done but very unusual.  Maybe in Squatters where I will need to interact often and probably while engaged I could see taking 2 performers. 

[Mxbedlam]

I almost have 1 performer and will take Mannequins if I really need the markers to be tossed at range (Set up comes to mind). It would take a pretty interesting scheme pool to run 2 performers and 2 mannequins. Not to say it can't be done but very unusual.  Maybe in Squatters where I will need to interact often and probably while engaged I could see taking 2 performers. 

[Boomstick]

I generally run one performer and a union minerror as my schemes unless I'm leaning more ice heavy, then the performer becomes an ice dancer. 1 mannequin is usually all I need when I take one,  they can get pretty much anywhere by following showgirls around.