Fazza92 Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 Hi guys, I bought the Toni's crew box but I find that's very hard build a general list on her... Have you any suggestion to start ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Douglas Scoundrels Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 9 minutes ago, Fazza92 said: Hi guys, I bought the Toni's crew box but I find that's very hard build a general list on her... Have you any suggestion to start ? Anything M&SU of course. Willie, Johan, Ramos box (for Joss and Hank) are great starts. Wind Gamin and Miners (both Union and Soulstone) for more minions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spooky_squirrel Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Fazza92 said: Hi guys, I bought the Toni's crew box but I find that's very hard build a general list on her... Have you any suggestion to start ? In addition to the recommendations made by @Kaiser Senpai, I would suggest getting the Arcane Effigy (token minion for when you need it at the very least, conditional removal for helping keep Toni's support alive), Malifaux Raptors (two reasons: appearing anywhere on the board and scratching some of your M&SU dudes to get an early start on the Hand Picked Men), and if you don't mind going a bit bigger the Arcane Effigy really helps out Toni's game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fazza92 Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 Thank you guys,I've bought an arcane effigy with troubleshooter box hehe The best henchmen for she who is? And in a tournament,for which strategy and schemes you suggest to select she? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spooky_squirrel Posted January 18, 2017 Report Share Posted January 18, 2017 1 hour ago, Fazza92 said: Thank you guys,I've bought an arcane effigy with troubleshooter box hehe The best henchmen for she who is? And in a tournament,for which strategy and schemes you suggest to select she? It depends on the strategy and schemes. In a strat/scheme pool where positioning matters, The Captain does a lot: pushing your models into table quarters or center as needed, pushing your opponent's models out. If you need someone to just be an anvil/counter-charge Henchman, Joss can work wonders. If you need a scheme runner for Undercover Entourage, The Firestarter is also a solid pick. All of these guys are M&SU, so they get passive boosts from Ironsides and support your Oxfordian Mages just by being on the table. Branching out, if you want to be able to drop scheme markers anywhere on the table, Cassandra's a solid pick, and she's mobile enough to do Undercover Entourage or chase down opposing scheme runners without many issues. She won't benefit from or support the internal synergies of Ironsides' crew, but that means she's not gaining or losing anything from ranging ahead . Amina Naidu (no model released yet) has a lot of things that she does, but you'll probably want to practice her in a more casual atmosphere. Ironsides can play well into strategies that rely on positioning. She's a controlling beater, so you can pull people out of table quarters or away from objectives. She's not indestructable, though she can be really really hard to kill if you are playing into a crew that's not dedicated to killing things. I tend to avoid playing her into strat/scheme pools that rely on killing things outright, let alone killing quality things (i.e. Collect the Bounty is probably not something I'd play her into because I typically run her without much peon/minion support, so her crew coughs up a lot of bounty points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fazza92 Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Ok thank you,another question... How play the oxfordian mages with she ? I think that they will remain within the range of the "hand picked men" ability ,but Toni has a good movement and the mages has only 4... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spooky_squirrel Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 19 minutes ago, Fazza92 said: Ok thank you,another question... How play the oxfordian mages with she ? I think that they will remain within the range of the "hand picked men" ability ,but Toni has a good movement and the mages has only 4... Funny you should ask that. Mainly because I just played a match with: Ironsides (Warding Runes, Challenge the Crowd, Iron Determination) The Captain (Patron's Blessing, Warding Runes) Arcane Emissary (Ironclad Conflux, Frame For Murder target) Shastar Vidiya Guard Oxfordian Mage (Blood Ward, Temporary Shielding) Oxfordian Mage (Nemesis Ward, Temporary Shielding) Oxfordian Mage (Doom Ward, Temporary Shielding) The Mages made her and the Captain utterly immune to Accusation!, gave them both Regenerate +1, and helped put Ironsides at against Misaki in close combat. They also accounted for roughly half the deaths in the 10T crew. Strategy was Guard the Stash. Their movement can seem like a problem, except I had The Captain, Ironsides, the Emissary, and all three Mages (with a bonus Academic in the Shastar Vidiya Guard), as well as the Shastar Vidiya Guard's (0) giving me my choice of pushes. The way you can make it work really really well is to have the Nemesis Ward Mage use Elemental Bolt (push trigger, 2" per tome, 8" max with all abilities accounted for and cheating in a low tome, defending Mage relents) on the other two mages. They move 8" up the board. The Captain goes, uses Airburst to push Ironsides and the Shastar Vidiya Guard up 5", then walks 5". Arcane Emissary goes, pitches a card for Flesh and Metal and walks twice, ending within 6" of the Captain. The Captain uses the bonus AP to Airburst the Nemesis Ward Mage 5" up the table. At this point, two Mages have yet to go and they're at or around the 14" line if they deployed at the 6" line. The one Mage that went already is at or around the 11" line (giving the other two a bonus Tome for Resonance). The Emissary is at the 14" line, and The Captain, Ironsides, and Shastar Vidiya Guard are at or around the 11" line. Ironsides, the Shastar Vidiya Guard, and the two furthest up the field Mages have yet to go (both have HPM bonuses from the Elemental Bolt damage). Less than half of my crew has gone, yet all of my crew is within 7ish inches of the centerline of the table going into the bottom of the first turn. This is just one way to use the built in control of the crew to get up the table. I've also had Ironsides get pushed up about 6-8 inches and then use You Lookin' at Me? to pull her crew up behind her. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spooky_squirrel Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 One caveat that a number of Ironsides players in my meta are talking about is Ironsides relies on terrain being more open to pushes. As soon as there are things like walls and fences that prevent pushes, her abilities start to lose their shine. Dedicated beaters can take her down without much fuss, and anything that attacks with Sh or Ca actions won't care about her Df trigger. Hard to Kill and 14 wounds seems tough, right up until it isn't because you're facing something that has a high min damage getting three swings on you, leaving you at 1 wound (HtK) if it doesn't ignore Hard to Kill. If she's already activated, you cannot even use the Iron Determination (0) to heal her back up before your opponent can try to finish her off. Canny opponents will wait for your stones to be spent to go for that, or they'll hit you with something that has less damage per attack and stick 1-2 points of damage each swing to draw stones out or put you so low on wounds that it doesn't matter if you stone to prevent damage, the kill is essentially guaranteed. This is the risk with early activating Toni, and I think makes a solid argument for not using her to Accuse opposing models when playing against a crew that can put out consistent damage (i.e. Mei Feng and Rail Workers can put out a steady stream of 2 damage with spikes, Collodi with Effigies and Lazarus can put out a steady stream of 2 damage). Other potential risks are against controlling crews that can separate Ironsides from her crew or otherwise keep her from activating in the middle of a group of opposing models. When she's caught out by herself, she's going to have a harder time getting work done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
retnab Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 Ironsides getting stuck in with an enemy beater is exactly why I think Lust is just so good with her. If something's a legitimate threat to Ironsides, Lust can "Now, Kiss!" it away from her. Amina should be amazing for that too by making the (non-master) threat Liable. The problem is they're both 9ss models and you're relying on a duel to succeed for the effect to go off. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spooky_squirrel Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 1 hour ago, retnab said: Ironsides getting stuck in with an enemy beater is exactly why I think Lust is just so good with her. If something's a legitimate threat to Ironsides, Lust can "Now, Kiss!" it away from her. Amina should be amazing for that too by making the (non-master) threat Liable. The problem is they're both 9ss models and you're relying on a duel to succeed for the effect to go off. There is good news on using Amina Naidu's duel, however. She's M&SU, so benefits from Hand Picked Men if you scuff her up a bit getting to the fight, and also a Henchman, so she can stone suits for the trigger. With most of the problem beaters I've run into trouble with that Amina can stop, their Wp is low enough where her positives and base Ca 6 are in a good place. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sordid Strumpet Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 13 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said: There is good news on using Amina Naidu's duel, however. She's M&SU, so benefits from Hand Picked Men if you scuff her up a bit getting to the fight, and also a Henchman, so she can stone suits for the trigger. With most of the problem beaters I've run into trouble with that Amina can stop, their Wp is low enough where her positives and base Ca 6 are in a good place. I wish Wyrd would release Amina already... How do you find Ironsides with the new Shastyar Vidiya Guards? Are the triple mages a worthwhile choise? they are a massive investment still, even with the upgrade. Given that mouse isn't the greatest totem in the world, I'm wondering how the Arcanist generic totem would go with the mages (whatever it's called - I bought it two years ago and it's still in a box somewhere ). I might take Angelica at that point as well, though, because she can push the totem into position (and maybe get a mage out of trouble) so it can do its 2-action thing. I'm very keen to try out the list you posted above with the Emissary instead of the Captain. Might be able to give that a shot next week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spooky_squirrel Posted January 19, 2017 Report Share Posted January 19, 2017 5 minutes ago, Sordid Strumpet said: I wish Wyrd would release Amina already... How do you find Ironsides with the new Shastyar Vidiya Guards? Are the triple mages a worthwhile choise? they are a massive investment still, even with the upgrade. Given that mouse isn't the greatest totem in the world, I'm wondering how the Arcanist generic totem would go with the mages (whatever it's called - I bought it two years ago and it's still in a box somewhere ). I might take Angelica at that point as well, though, because she can push the totem into position (and maybe get a mage out of trouble) so it can do its 2-action thing. I'm very keen to try out the list you posted above with the Emissary instead of the Captain. Might be able to give that a shot next week. I built an Amina with the TTB female kit, but I make sure I clear the conversion with the TO before fielding her. Shastar Vidiya Guards have so far been interesting. With the ability to pitch a card for focus at the start of their activation and Hand Picked Men, it's a lot easier to get moderate or severe damage and choice of triggers off of their primary melee attack on the first swing. At 8 wounds and Hard to Kill, they take a little more effort to kill than other objective holders I've used. This biases me towards using them primarily for objective holding, with the secondary task of being counter-charge models (they charge in at things that have moved to engage my front line models). I'm thinking next time I run a variant of this list I might drop the Emissary and bring in another Shastar Vidiya Guard and a Malifaux Raptor to make more use of HPM. The Raptor would scratch each of the Guards to turn on HPM; if my starting hand needs work, the Guards cheat low instead of relenting allowing me to peek at my deck, stack it, and draw the next card while knowing that the next duel is already stacked. The Captain did a lot of work, including pushing an Accused mage out of engagement with his casting expert AP, then charging the model that had accused the mage. The Emissary's main role was to be a big distraction, since I figured my opponent would do his best to keep impassible terrain between his stuff and Ironsides (he did), limiting my ability to draw them into her. It worked, but it's not the best use for Ironclad Conflux in an Ironsides list. The triple mages worked well enough there, but I've run into problems before where the mages could not get work done. One of the things I always end up needing to work around is what to do if Ironsides successfully tarpits everything that the mages could shoot at? Only one of them has the ability to fight in close combat. With the starting sequence I mentioned above, the two mages that are about 14" up the field (4" off the centerline) are in position to furious cast with bonuses from HPM anything that deployed From the Shadows or scooted forward early. If nothing scooted that forward early, you can use Ironsides to try and 'lure' them into optimal range for the mages. It runs really tight on stones and is not the greatest at running interact schemes early (everything is busy until you either get an activation edge or get Toni's ball of denial going), so I tend to avoid selecting incremental schemes that involve markers with them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sordid Strumpet Posted January 20, 2017 Report Share Posted January 20, 2017 Taking three of anything really does limit the flexibility of your list, especially if it doesn't have any capability to switch roles or, as you said, is actually somewhat countered by the play style of your master. So I'm not entirely sold on the three mages thing - maybe in killy scheme pools they'll work well. I used to run the captain a lot (admittedly years ago when I first started), but these days the poor chap is never even considered, particularly given that the Emissary occupies the same slot (I only take one big model if I can help it). I tend to use Willie's haphazard approach to work health and safety to "turn on" HPM for free (I hate flipping cards attacking my own crew for some reason, it always feels kind of weird, even though there's nothing wrong with that approach). Still stuck on scheme runners for that list though. I might have to get some soul stone miners or something as Angelica doesn't fit terribly well schematically. Of course in a scheme heavy pool there's always the consideration that Kaeris (or Colette...) just work better if that's what you want to focus on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spooky_squirrel Posted January 20, 2017 Report Share Posted January 20, 2017 That's what I've noticed with them. I think I would be better off with a single Mage and sinking those other points into things that will get other work done, like clearing scheme markers (Large Arachnids) or setting them up (Union Miners). For scheme running and keeping the Union theme, The Firestarter can assist with schemes. All the friendly push control in the world doesn't matter if Anna drops in on you--better figure out other ways to get work done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sordid Strumpet Posted January 20, 2017 Report Share Posted January 20, 2017 Definitely need to get hold of those union miners one of these days, they look like great thematic scheme runners. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fazza92 Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 I've tried Toni vs Pandora last Saturday. With the strategy collect the bounty. Like schemes I've choose Frame for Murder and Recover Evidence. In a play that have 2hrs like time max,the emissary sucker is hard to kill,and the same is for recover evidence. I've see that all the crew need to stay near Ironsides...the mages,the captain,the emissary... Ironsides has take 10 damage in a turn in close combat against Pandora,but Iron Determination is very cool I've found,after a fist in face a Pandora (with 2 ore enemy within 2"),she's heal 5 wound(regenation +4 adrenaline),and uppercut at MI8 is great.... But in a tournament,against neverborn...is better use Ironsides or other master ? I think that's only Pandora can break she in a turn at the end.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spooky_squirrel Posted January 23, 2017 Report Share Posted January 23, 2017 Ironsides and the Troubleshooter box can do well into Neverborn. Your Mages will have positives to their Wp duels (if any are made) and Ironsides and The Captain can both be made immune to conditions. If your opponent is relying on incorporeal to keep their models alive, the Mages will make short work of them. With a strategy like Collect the Bounty, however, I would lean towards a different crew build (and possibly master) in a tournament. The way Collect the Bounty is scored is really punitive towards elite crews. If your opponent fields nothing but minions and kills one of your Oxfordian Mages, you end up needing to kill two of their minions just to cancel their strategy point. We've got some minions that can spike damage pretty high, and some of them benefit from Ironsides' aura (Large Steam Arachnids, for instance). Your observation is spot on, Ironsides and the M&SU models that she brings all like to be near each other to make use of Hand Picked Men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fazza92 Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 Yeah,for the purpose of collect the bounty I've think the same,but it was my first hiring of Ironside and I want to try she... But Toni or Captain with the warding runes (and in 10" from the blood Wars of oxfordian mages)are immune to the paralyzed condition caused by failing a WP duel of a enemy terrifying ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bengt Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 1 hour ago, Fazza92 said: But Toni or Captain with the warding runes are immune to the paralyzed condition caused by failing a WP duel of a enemy terrifying ? Yes. You will still take Wp duel (and suffer side effects like Pandora stuff if you fail), but you don't get Paralysed so your Activation doesn't end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fazza92 Posted January 24, 2017 Report Share Posted January 24, 2017 Ok so the blood Ward work with all abilities that are on a enemy model's card (that cause a condition),like the TN on a stat(es Flare of Kaeris ,Orror Duel ecc ecc)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hydranixx Posted January 26, 2017 Report Share Posted January 26, 2017 On 1/25/2017 at 1:14 AM, Fazza92 said: Ok so the blood Ward work with all abilities that are on a enemy model's card (that cause a condition),like the TN on a stat(es Flare of Kaeris ,Orror Duel ecc ecc)? It doesn't stop abilities or actions, it just means that Conditions from enemy models can't be applied. If an enemy action or ability does 1 damage and applies 1 Burning to a model with the upgrade and near the Blood Ward Mage, you take 1 damage but would NOT get Burning Condition. It's really good with schemes like Accusation and Marked for Death as your model can't get tagged with these Conditions unless the Blood mage dies or pushed away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fazza92 Posted January 30, 2017 Report Share Posted January 30, 2017 Another question...I've see that Toni is Emissary dipendent.. Usually I put the emissary that grant her a adrenaline+1 that I use for Rush... Yesterday ,against Reva,after a lure on emissary,and the guard the stash strategy,I separate Toni from the emissary...And I've see that is very difficult take Adrenaline against few model (that not die )... Is mandatory for you hire the emissary with her? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frollo the Wordbearer Posted January 30, 2017 Report Share Posted January 30, 2017 Ciao fazza. I've never played nor needed the arcane emissary with her. It is useful only in an "adrenaline centric" crew. Usually i play her as a support, abusing HPM and You looking.. Toni isn't that good at punching thing, in my opinion. She could be devastating given optimal situations (killed a full health Barbaros in one activation once), but.. well too situational to count on her brass punches. Arcane emissary is good and toolboxy, but has the drawback to not have the M&SU characteristic. 10 ss in one model are really a lot for a model who doesn't receive Toni's best ability. Imho, of course. On the other hand, the errata is tempting me to create a more adrenaline based crew for her and in this kind of list the emissary surely has its place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spooky_squirrel Posted January 30, 2017 Report Share Posted January 30, 2017 Fortunately there's nothing really autotake/mandatory with Ironsides. I ran a very interesting crew without the Emissary that featured Shastar Vidiya Guards, and aside from a couple mistakes on my part they did really well. Ironsides never got her Adrenaline very high, but as @Frollo the Wordbearer mentioned, there's the support way to play her. Basically to play her as a more supporting piece, you bring beaters/shooters who have the M&SU characteristic and you use Ironsides to draw prey into their threat range. To get them motivated, find some way to scratch them up a bit. This turns on the Hand Picked Men bonus. Some examples of ways to do this include: Willie (Miss Fire) and Oxfordian Mages: Willie walks, drops blast marker on unactivated Mages. The damage is reduced to 1 due to Arcane Shielding. This requires minimal card flipping and potentially cheating down. As @Bengt mentions, it can also be used on armored targets to get that single point of damage through. Oxfordian Mages alone: Oxfordian Mage with Nemesis Ward activates first, uses Elemental Bolt on the other two Oxfordian Mages. They relent, Nemesis Ward declares the push trigger. Min damage 2 is reduced to 1 by Arcane Shielding, and the first Mage can get pushed up to 8", the second up to 6" (assuming no other nearby Academics). The other two Mages are now ready to start gunning for things. Malifaux Raptor and other beaters: For this you can use Joss, Howard Langston, the Rail Golem, Large Steam Arachnids, and Shastar Vidiya Guards. I also use this approach to put Amina Naidu on positives with all of her dirty tricks as well. Malifaux Raptor is deployed in melee with two of the beaters, activates early and attacks them. For the most part, they relent. You have the opportunity to pitch a low mask to peek at your own deck so that you can stack/scrap things like the Black Joker. I like doing this with Shastar Vidiya Guards and cheating their defensive flip down in order to draw the card I stack to the top. You can come up with your own ways to accomplish this, but the result you are looking for is a handful of M&SU models that have damage spike potential or other features built into their attacks getting at least one positive. Special mentions go out to models that can get three attack actions against a single target (Oxfordian Mages, for instance) as well as models that can add their own bonuses (Large Steam Arachnids can eat scheme/scrap markers for positives on all flips that turn, Shastar Vidiya Guard can pitch a card at the start of their activation for Focused +1) to make the most of their damage tracks and/or triggers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fazza92 Posted January 30, 2017 Report Share Posted January 30, 2017 Ok thank you very much Guys... Next step is purchase Willie,and like MsU beater I've Miss Step that can I use. I need to train me to use the mages...at the end I use ever they as scheme runner or take the stash ecc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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