Jump to content

Coge

Recommended Posts

Well I think it's mostly dependant on crew selection but she does have a few things she tends to gravitate towards and a few things she falls short in. I mainly play GG2016 with her so I can only really comment on those schemes/strats. I almost find her better at denying schemes rather than score them herself. I don't really think she's particularly good or bad with any of these schemes but she can be a big hinderance in the opponents plans - which is probably her biggest strength. 

Strengths: 

Schemes/Strats that require holding points or applying conditions to enemy models.

Her decent durability means she can hold up to a bit of harassment and if you place her correctly, it can make opponents hesitant to attack her in fear of her Df trigger. This makes her great to tar pit models pulling them into her inescapable fists. Also given that she can dish out some  damage through her Df trigger, it means that she's not afraid to spend some of her own AP tagging models with distract or exhaust. 

Strats: Guard the stash, Interference, Extraction, headhunter (she's actually a decent drop for most of the main strategies) 

Schemes: Catch and release, Frame for murder (being the selected model), Mark for death, Take Prisoner, Exhaust their forces, Inspection (denial), Occupy their turf (denial)

Weaknesses:

Schemes/Strats that require a high degree of movement, killing high cost (typically tough) enemy models and placing scheme markers. She's also bad with schemes that involve masters as she's typically in the thick of things putting her in danger of being killed or setup. 

She's either supporting her crew from midfield or frontline or getting into the thick of it herself. She's deceptively fast if enemy models are where you need to be as her charge range is pretty high and her rush em ability can give her a nice boost but again it requires enemy models otherwise she's pretty slow. She has no real scheme marker abilities to help her out with those schemes and sort of goes against the grain of the rest of her strengths. Lastly she's not very deadly despite her brawler persona. She certainly can do some damage but it typically requires a lot of adrenaline to do anything worth talking about. 

Strats: Collect the bounty

Schemes: Convict Labour, Take Prisoner (as a target), Leave your mark, Covert breakthrough, Neutralize the leader (she's quite suspect able to death), frame for murder (she tends to kill weaker models to trigger this), Public demonstration (she loves diving into swarms or minion models), Inspection, a quick murder (she has problems with tough models) 

 

Now obviously this is completely dependant on your own competence and familiarity. Maybe if you encounter some of her "bad" schemes you simply change up how you play her and take her in more of a support role or more aggressive. The cool thing about Ironsides is that you can change quite easily on the fly how you play her. I often start off playing her in more of a support role, building adrenaline buffing models and deciphering what my opponents plans are. Once I have a good idea, I'll switch gears and play her more aggressive and try actively to deny my opponent of VP's. 

Now if I draw a very scheme heavy pool, then we certainly have better options than Ironsides. Also neutralize the leader always gets me worried when playing Ironsides and kind of limits how I play her (at least until I figure out my opponents schemes). Otherwise I'm not really concerned dropping her in whatever. I feel most masters sort of fall into that territory with each of them having a few standout schemes they excel at. Toni doesn't really excel at any herself but she's very good at denying a lot of them. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hi there.

 

First I have to tell that english is not my first language, so please forgive me for grammar errors ^_^'

 

I have played Ironsides since a month more or less and i'm finding her quite good at buffing her crew standing there and pushing my own models abusing of Ya lookin' at me and its trigger.

 

I found that in games where I tried to use her as a tank to engage enemies, she tend to non doing much other than consuming ss and being killed. When I try to use her more conservative she win my games.

 

At the moment I'm using quite the same crew, basically:

 

Toni: Challeng the crowds, warding runes, message from the union/arcane res. Cache 6/5 ss

 

Firestarter: warding runes, imbued energies

 

Johan: imbued energies

 

3 oxfordian mages with temporary shields and wards

 

2 gunsmiths

 

 

I find this kind of list has a great killing power, but tends to being in a "bubble" (obvously). The list itself has a terrifying ability to deal with armoured crews and constructs (1 relic hammer + FIVE model s able to ignore armor).

 

Toni usually doesn't much other than repositioning herself and gunsmiths (to make them fast)/mages. 

 

The real star of the list is The firestarter; in the first turn he burns a little the gunsmiths and/or johan, then becomes a real fast scheme runner (the only dedicated one of the list) even thanks to regeneration + recless (+ w.a.). The only one who can go outside the bubble without much complains. 

 

Johan is just too good with a full M&SU crew to not list him. A lot of positive flips and a situationally good heal (never happened to prefer this over his hammer, btw).

 

Gunsmiths are the muscle of the list. They do A LOT of damages and are quite survivable.

 

Mages are really good with the new upgrade. The third is realy a bit redundant, but hey, for 3 poits he's gold.

 

Usually it's very difficult to lose Toni, because she's not likely to be in combat from the start, but she doesn't fear to pile in late game.

 

Of course that's a list good for killy schemes/strat and not very much for strats that require a "open game" like Stake at claims.

 

 

Well, that's it: my 2 (€) cents. Hope to being usefull (or at least not completely useless

 

Bye :)

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think you're absolutely right.  Using Ironsides in the mid-range as a support Master is not a bad play.  Hand-picked Men is a great buff, and You Lookin' at Me? is some of the best movement tech available to Arcanists, especially if you have a good :mask in hand (medium value for friendly targets, high value for enemies).

I think this is an important perspective to present, as usually Toni is played at close-or-frontline, or at least people perceive that to be her optimal position.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, Xavian and Deathgrip said:

I am thinking of choosing Ironsides as my first master (or maybe Daw or Mei, still not sure) but I was interested in how well she would work with a mercenary Lust, which is another model that caught my eye. 

I think she does really great with Lust.  Lust's (0) Proper Positions can give Ironsides more pre-activation movement, and her (1) Now, Kiss! is really great at either getting strong models away from Ironsides or getting weaker ones closer to her.  I pair these two models pretty regularly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...
4 hours ago, Kaiser Senpai said:

Wooooo!!! Toni gets her auto "Nice Shot..." now! You think people will start taking her more now? How does this change your strategies?

It means that I'm no longer relying on cards in hand, stones, or positives on defense to force the trigger. I'll still be using stones for damage reduction and flip modifications, as well as guaranteeing triggers on her attack actions on the turns in which she has more adrenaline (much easier to build up with Ironclad Conflux Emissary).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I feel like this change will make her more dangerous defensively than offensively. Similar to a brewmaster mechanic in which you'll get stuck in her bubble of bad options. You can try to walk away prompting a Ml7 positive flip, or attack her and get a smack back for your trouble.

In the meantime Toni will be luring people into her punch bubble (which also got a slight boost since it also auto triggers her Good shot but with a double negative on damage), mostly spending her AP trapping models as opposed to throwing punches, waiting for that adrenaline meter to spike before you start swinging those uppercuts. 

I also feel like the boost to union miners will also be an indirect boost to Ironsides as well. So all in all its a good day to be a Toni player :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think it changes how i'll play her (I already aggressively played towards Good Shot anyways) but it makes her so much stronger as a black hole (can't leave, get killed if you attack her) that, calling it now, I suspect in the next errata or two Good Shot goes down a Severe damage or she goes down 1ss in her cache. Since I won't have to stone for Good Shot she should have more stones to keep herself (and her Henchmen) alive and threatening the enemy longer.   Very exciting stuff!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The one thing about Toni though is that she really likes a very specific set of models to be engaged with. In order to get the most out of her trigger you'll want to be engaged with middle to low threat models that attack with Ml and don't target WP. If the model is too powerful, she'll crumble unbelievably fast, if they use Sh or Ca actions, she cant trigger. So in reality it's a powerful ability but its one you need to use wisely. Just as she was before, you'll really need to know your opponents list before committing Ironsides.

Another way to help circumvent her trigger is by focusing. That way you reduce the risk of taking damage and focus more on quality of attacks rather than quantity. Without armour or H2W, she can be quite susceptible to those damage spikes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, Jordon said:

The one thing about Toni though is that she really likes a very specific set of models to be engaged with. In order to get the most out of her trigger you'll want to be engaged with middle to low threat models that attack with Ml and don't target WP. If the model is too powerful, she'll crumble unbelievably fast, if they use Sh or Ca actions, she cant trigger. So in reality it's a powerful ability but its one you need to use wisely. Just as she was before, you'll really need to know your opponents list before committing Ironsides.

Another way to help circumvent her trigger is by focusing. That way you reduce the risk of taking damage and focus more on quality of attacks rather than quantity. Without armour or H2W, she can be quite susceptible to those damage spikes.

Definitely need to pay attention to what can trigger the GSMT trigger. I've had several mirror matches (Toni v. Toni) where we've pointed out little details to each other about her abilities. I've found that Ironsides is great for tying up scheme runners and getting objective campers off of objectives (10T Brother who has gone double defensive, for example), which guides me to try to keep her engaged with those models as much as possible, while using her Rush 'em to place away from more serious beaters where possible, and charging in with the Emissary to knock them away otherwise. There are also a number of models that outright ignore defensive triggers, like our own Union Miners and Joss that Ironsides will need to either avoid, or neutralize in some other fashion (Amina Naidu turning Joss into a peon that cannot target a model that is wounded in a HPM list, for an example that not only takes his attacks away, but affects his role in the strat/schemes).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, the tome in defence is great. Now I'm tempted to try her in a more meele focused crew.. maybe with joss and arcane emisdary.. 

Amina seems very sweet. The guards.. not so much. Yeah, they have a 2/4/6 damage track that's juicy with HPM.. but.. don't know, I struggle to find them a place in my lists.. maybe because I don't like enought the models..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So the guards can push around mages to get them out of combat or into range for Furious Casting. Their damage track is the same as an acolyte and they have a non randomizing ranged attack that can finish off targets and bounce around. For 8 points it seems like they offer a lot, especially with HPM

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, Mrbedlam said:

So the guards can push around mages to get them out of combat or into range for Furious Casting. Their damage track is the same as an acolyte and they have a non randomizing ranged attack that can finish off targets and bounce around. For 8 points it seems like they offer a lot, especially with HPM

Non-randomizing is the key thing to note here. Ironsides and Emissary create a big ball in the center, a spider or two gets in to latch on to anything with a fair to good defense, and the Guards go towards the bottom of the turn, unleashing a lot of little pains that get people closer to death by burning, finishes off anyone who's barely holding on, or softens up targets for the next turn.

3 minutes ago, retnab said:

I'm planning on trying a Shastar Guard with Well Rehearsed for the potential of giving pseudo-hard to kill to a nearby Ox Mage or Ironsides. They seem like they should make for a strong front line defender model.

I found that they are tough enough to eat up a fair bit of AP to remove, and even if nothing else nearby is getting targeted, the Well Rehearsed gives them a third shot at life.

So far I've only used them with Ironsides, and the turn 1 trick of using a Malifaux Raptor to scratch one, cheating defense, and peek at my deck allows me to stack or cycle cards, then draw one. It's interesting and gets them started early on the HPM buff.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Raptor works for that yeah, my plan was to use Lust's Heartbreaker to trigger HPM, rearrange the top 3 cards of the deck, and cheat Df to draw what you put on top all together.

They make an expensive team but they're both models I'd want in the list anyways so it should work out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So out of curiosity, how does the errata change people's opinions of Ironsides' upgrades? Challenge the Crowd and Warding Runes are as awesome as ever, but personally I'm really tempted by Iron Determination now as well, since once she's in combat she should be getting much more Adrenaline reliably with Good Shot being built in against melee. The "discard a damage flipped Red Joker vs Ironsides" always sounded really niche to me but doesn't hurt to have that in there too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 hours ago, retnab said:

So out of curiosity, how does the errata change people's opinions of Ironsides' upgrades? Challenge the Crowd and Warding Runes are as awesome as ever, but personally I'm really tempted by Iron Determination now as well, since once she's in combat she should be getting much more Adrenaline reliably with Good Shot being built in against melee. The "discard a damage flipped Red Joker vs Ironsides" always sounded really niche to me but doesn't hurt to have that in there too.

I've been using Iron Determination all along, with Challenge the Crowd and Frontline Leadership being the two that I waffle on. Being able to use the Emissary and various other control pieces in her crew to get Ironsides surrounded by weaker threats allows getting a good Adrenaline spike, and if all I need her to do is stay alive and keep those models engaged I'm better off dumping that Adrenaline into a solid heal. It provides a (0) for when I don't need to draw people in as an ongoing aura (they're already here) and when I don't need to bounce around the tangled knot because nothing that's able to target me is a serious threat.

Good Shot being built in means I don't need to worry about being on positives to fish for Tomes, so that aspect of Challenge the Crowd no longer matters, and her Df 5 isn't helped out as much by being put on positives against things that are attacking with a stat of 7+. Where being on positives can help is having the choice to underbid to get hit by something that doesn't hit hard in order to get the Good Shot retaliation.

The thing I like about Frontline Leadership is the forced Wp checks to walk away or charge someone else just for being near Ironsides, not even engaged. If they're pitching a good card to keep a scheme runner from being tied up by Ironsides, that's one less good card in their hand for actions later in the turn. It's especially helpful if they have a modest striker looking to charge something that's not as obnoxious to fight as Ironsides, good cards out of the deck or hand to have a choice on targets means lower chances of them doing serious damage to the target they want. Being able to build up adrenaline for a crew member at the cost of a card seems good, except there are a lot of things in her crew that like to pitch cards, so I don't get as much use out of this ability.

Warding Runes is just amazing for her. One stone gets her a Counterspell on the card. Hiring Oxfordian Mages gets you additional benefits from their various wards. Positives against enemy leaders, immunity to enemy conditions and pulse damage, regeneration... these are all pieces of her puzzle that allow for some serious shenanigans (8" push up the table from the Nemesis Mage, take two damage, one regens at start of activation, last regens at end of turn). Immunity to enemy conditions straight out blocks certain schemes that might target her, and when you combine it with her ability to draw people into combat, they have no choice but to target her. I've been using it to deny Exhaust, but as I recently learned in a mirror-match against the top Arcanist player in my extended meta, she is a one-woman Exhaust machine.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yesterday i tried for the first time Joss with Toni (I had just finished painting him) and woa! Great! I think I'm in love.. He just gets so much buffed by HPM.. killed all alone a full health Von shill, with a severe pneumatic fist (hitting the paralized trigger) and some chopping. Really really cool. Have to try him again.

First game with even for Howard Langston.

 Hank feels like he doesnt receive much from Toni: he's too fast to remain in the bubble and in my games tends to be in the flank, cleaning it from enemies. A solo piece, basically. Better in other crew i think, like Ramo's (+s to Ml and Def but more than other for Reactivate from the totem) and Mei Feng (cover bubble and Fast from Sparks). With Toni he receive a + to att (great, with Ml7) and to damage (not so necessary, having 4 as weak imho), cool but.. not enought to make him the best choice with her, imho.

Probably i've just "descovered hot water" like they say here, but.. seemed right to make a point for my self.

My 2 cents

Bye

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information