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I haven't used Mouse much, either. Usually, he was there to flip not-a-Ram to fail his healing (0). The best use I got out of him was to take an Ice Golem with Ironsides & have Mouse pull an enemy close to the Golem to set up a (3) Smash. Or rather, after the first time I pulled it off (or if my opponent read the cards), Mouse & the Golem set up in a decent spot, and my opponent either avoided them like the plague or else got near terrain or other models so that the push couldn't move them.

Long story short, I couldn't figure out how to use the little guy efficiently, so I haven't used him in a long time.

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Saturday (13 August) I used Ironsides, Captain, Mouse, and a pocket Rail Golem to pull select targets around terrain to pummel with the golem, including a Turn 1 Lady J assassination: you looking at me? at max range to pull Lady J from where she ended her activation into the Mouse's max Rope range of the Rail Golem. My next activation moved Mouse up next to the Rail Golem, roping Lady J into both Mouse and Golem, then chain-activating the Golem (who had imbued energies on top of Locomotion).
Deployment came into play (I positioned Mouse and Captain where they could move and pull/push things into the Golem's threat range), as well as my opponent moving Lady J too close too early (inexperience on his part, if she had moved a few activations later, I would have potentially been forced into activating one of my control pieces early).

I will be trying out his rope lash and its weak damage to pull models around for HPM next time I run Ironsides. It looks like with some card burning I could be using it to make up to a pair of gunsmiths fast and furious during Mouse's activation (Df trigger on Rams for fast, don't relent; 'furious' from HPM).

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On Mouse: I use him mostly to pull my own stuff.  Having the heal available for Toni is great, especially if I have Johana too.  Getting up to six wounds back a turn is solid.

 

just had a thought while I was replying to a Mei thread... Malifaux Raptors could be your best friend with Ironsides. The biggest problem with Toni is getting hit by models with high minimum damage.  You don't want to tank the Viks or Hank or what not as it goes bad fast. The thought is use raptors to prevent the charges, body block with their 40mm base, and all in all help segregate enemy models who WANT to be in melee with her,

Kudra might work very well for this too.

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I just played my first games against Viktorias yesterday, I didn't know how insane they were until calling the first game in the second round after one took out 3 spiders, Joss, Angelica and a mannequin in one go (playing a practice game for a tag team tournament this weekend).

We had a second go, swapped out the ox mage I had taken for regeneration for a gunsmith to act as Ironsides bodyguard. Gave Joss Imbued energies and managed to take that game. Only problem was I really only used Ironsides for moving my stuff around and giving the gunsmith fast. It worked but I didn't feel in control. (It's a fixed list tourney for new players)

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21 minutes ago, DrEvilmonki said:

. Only problem was I really only used Ironsides for moving my stuff around and giving the gunsmith fast

This is one of the best uses for Ironsides. Don't feel bad. 

 

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57 minutes ago, DrEvilmonki said:

I just played my first games against Viktorias yesterday, I didn't know how insane they were until calling the first game in the second round after one took out 3 spiders, Joss, Angelica and a mannequin in one go (playing a practice game for a tag team tournament this weekend).

We had a second go, swapped out the ox mage I had taken for regeneration for a gunsmith to act as Ironsides bodyguard. Gave Joss Imbued energies and managed to take that game. Only problem was I really only used Ironsides for moving my stuff around and giving the gunsmith fast. It worked but I didn't feel in control. (It's a fixed list tourney for new players)

Yeah Viks are not what you want to see when playing Ironsides. One good thing however is that Toni's Df trigger can actually be a serious threat to the Viks since they have such low Wds and can actually be quite a deterrent. 

Otherwise I find that models I cannot punch to death tend to burn just fine. Three successful bottle hits can down a Vik without H2K and even with SS prevention, she's not likely to live. 

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Follow up from "will be trying"--Ironsides into Gremlins with Reconnoitre
I wanted more practice with Ironsides, so brought her with Mouse, a pair of gunsmiths, a pair of Mages, Arcane Effigy, and Mech Rider (no henchmen this round). My opponent fielded Mah Tucket and was trying out some new stuff of his own.

Toni pulled bushwhackers into her and cleaned up about half of his minions herself, dying in turn 3 to Mah Tucket ("let mah handle this"), but leaving her burning from "Nice try, my turn" with Radiance from the Effigy. After Mah's activation, Mouse walked up, roped a gunsmith (flipped a 6R on defense, didn't even need to cheat the low ram in my hand) to just within shooting range of Mah, then chain-activated the gunsmith and shot Mah down with two cursed ammo shots and a red joker damage flip on the third shot.

Using Mouse to speed them up proved to be a nasty surprise for my opponent, and the Gunsmiths in Toni's crew are using rams/crows while the rest of my crew is trying to work off of tomes.

 

Playing without a Henchman was strange, but it let me out-activate the gremlin player from the first turn on, even with Mouse and the Effigy giving me chain activations. The activation attrition really kicked in after Toni's sacrifice in the center while the Rider rode the flank dropping Gamin and picking off stray gremlins trying to score off of the strategy. It was an interesting practice game, but I don't know how skipping out on a henchman will play out against a non-experimental list in the same strat/scheme pool.

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6 minutes ago, spooky_squirrel said:

<snip>

dying in turn 3 to Mah Tucket ("let mah handle this"), but leaving her burning from "Nice try, my turn" with Radiance from the Effigy. After Mah's activation, Mouse walked up, roped a gunsmith (flipped a 6R on defense, didn't even need to cheat the low ram in my hand) to just within shooting range of Mah, then chain-activated the gunsmith and shot Mah down with two cursed ammo shots and a red joker damage flip on the third shot.

<snip>

Just a note, but "Good Shot, My Turn" is not an attack action, so "Arcane Radiance" should not apply burning from it.

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1 hour ago, binkys said:

Just a note, but "Good Shot, My Turn" is not an attack action, so "Arcane Radiance" should not apply burning from it.

Ooh, thank you. I'll add that to my growing list of "does not work that way"

...I should make sure my notes and cards are in front of me when I'm writing up a summary. On a less braindead note: I did remind my opponent to not burn AP trying to put conditions on Ironsides with Warding. This is why I need practice. :)

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Also remember that it deals the full amount of damage to incorporeal models too, sometimes its better to cast you looking at me and get the trigger off as you will be doing greater damage output.

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8 hours ago, osoi said:

Also remember that it deals the full amount of damage to incorporeal models too, sometimes its better to cast you looking at me and get the trigger off as you will be doing greater damage output.

These bits of nuance are why I'm trying to get more practice in. It looks like there are potentially many subtleties in Ironsides and her crew interactions.

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9 hours ago, spooky_squirrel said:

These bits of nuance are why I'm trying to get more practice in. It looks like there are potentially many subtleties in Ironsides and her crew interactions.

Yeah, a lot of people assume she is a straight beater but she can achieve a lot beside just hitting things.

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16 hours ago, DrEvilmonki said:

Yeah, a lot of people assume she is a straight beater but she can achieve a lot beside just hitting things.

I originally picked her up because I (mistakenly) figured she'd allow for more straight-forward learning games than the Closing Time box. While her workhorses don't invert the positive/negative twists on the flip, the control piece of the pie can be rougher for new players, because Toni, Mouse, the Captain, and the Oxfordian Mages can all push people around with abilities and triggers.

Trying to use her as a straight beater in a beginner game is fine, but it won't help much once games go beyond that point. I'm finding that she's an interesting support Master for control-based play. If I can get an edge in activations with her crew, by locking opposing minions up in the middle of the table and/or set piece removal, it gives me the ability to run schemes. If I'm using her and her crew's synergies right, I'm burning most, if not all, of the way through my entire fate deck every turn.

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Surprised that no one is talking about the guards or the New union lawyer henchman with a Toni crew. They all seem custom made to support her style of play.

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The lawyer is excellent with her. The guards... Are not really two stones better than a Large Arachnid, but they don't put pressure on Tomes and they help cycle your hand so you end up with the cards Ironsides is so desperate for (maybe).

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1 hour ago, Mrbedlam said:

Surprised that no one is talking about the guards or the New union lawyer henchman with a Toni crew. They all seem custom made to support her style of play.

I just picked up the female TTB character box to scratch-build Amina for fielding. I think she'll be rock solid in Toni's crew, but I want to put her on the table a few times before commenting.

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Summons seems huge against big beaters like Nekima, which are generally the bane of Ironsides. If Lilith tangles Nekima out there, you can slap her with a Summons and anyone who is wounded (Willie or Electric creation can help) is basically immune to her.

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4 minutes ago, Mrbedlam said:

Summons seems huge against big beaters like Nekima, which are generally the bane of Ironsides. If Lilith tangles Nekima out there, you can slap her with a Summons and anyone who is wounded (Willie or Electric creation can help) is basically immune to her.

What is "Summons"?

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I assume Amina Naidu's action summons, it pushes the target their charge at her and a trigger to give them a condition where they can't target a model with less wounds than their wound stat.

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I'm thinking Amina is going to be a big deal for Ironsides. The only problem is what would you be willing to drop to allow her in the list? Ironsides has so many good models to take and has access to now 4 M&SU henchmen. 

Just based on theory, and without knowing schemes I would almost always include the firestarter as he's the best in-theme scheme runner available to Ironsides. From there I would probably take Amina over Joss and the Captain. Of coarse Cassandra is always a strong consideration but I tend to keep Toni in-theme most of the time. 

As for the Vidya Guard. I see them as solid options. I see them as very reliable means of damage output as they can easily gain focus or get positives to damage with on their attacks with the proper trigger. That combined with their impressive damage track means that it's not a stretch to expect 6-10 damage with two attacks. I'm certainly not suggesting their auto includes since damage output is not something a typical M&SU build is lacking.

The fact that they are enforcers makes them slightly more interesting as they can gain access to the exceptional M&SU upgrades as well as imbued energies, which is always worth that one extra SS in my opinion.

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I'm very excited about playing Ironsides some more. Getting 3 oxfordian mages for 15 stones seems quite worthwhile now. The problem (I think) would be to get the Arcane Emissary who provides a massive boost to Ironsides as well as Amina and then some Vidya guard and scheme runners in the same list... The addition of all these cool M&SU models has me quite excited to leave the Bayu and work for the Arcanists again :D

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So I keep seeing people say that Ironsides is not obvious and you play her in a non-obvious way to do well with her. But to me her trick seems to be being a good tarpit? Am I missing something?

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40 minutes ago, Astrella said:

So I keep seeing people say that Ironsides is not obvious and you play her in a non-obvious way to do well with her. But to me her trick seems to be being a good tarpit? Am I missing something?

She's a good tarpit against the right models/lists. If you try to sucker in Sidir, he'll laugh it off. If you get too close to a beater like Francisco, he'll tear her down very fast. Things that hit really hard and a lot won't care about her 14 wound profile.

Pick the right location and victims, and she's going to deny your opponent the ability to do things on their own terms. With the right crew and upgrades supporting her, the denial/tarpit/control game dials in sharply. That's the part that gets overlooked a lot when people look at her card. The adrenaline feature and the Ml actions make her look like a front line beater, which is the "obvious" thing about her in isolation.

 

So you're going in the right direction for what many of us say is the non-obvious way to use her.

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I should also add that Hand Picked Men is a very interesting ability, and for people who are used to playing games and crews in which self-preservation is king, hurting yourself to make yourself stronger is an unusual play. Having baked in (while damaged) positives on attack and damage is amazing when you're trying to put down a model or hit certain triggers and it interacts nicely with other abilities that are available in M&SU crews (especially the denial game with Amina Naidu).

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