Levi and the new FAQ

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

I was too amazed by the recent errata not to post something to see what the interwebs thought.

As you probably know, the newest rules faq tells us that Levi can channel a charge attack and get's the bonus to attack and damage to BOTH attacks.

Does anyone else think this is really weird?

Here's my reason why I think it is:

1) All previous debates on this topic before the change agreed that the Channel was like focus in that it only worked on the first attack.

2) This is such a powerful boost it gives the guy positive to all flips, that means both Horror and ALL manipulative checks.

3) Levi's other trigger, Poke of Death, is now all but useless. Since you can effectively channel the charge, then channel both attacks, giving yourself double pos to attack and damage. So why does he even have a trigger that costs cards to give himself the positives? This errata just removed a trigger from ever being needed. And now you will only declare the summon abom trigger.

4) Levi hardly needed the power boost. All circles I know of generally agree, if anything, he needs a bit of a Cuddling.

So that's my thoughts. Let the debate begin!

[Astrella]

It's an faq, a clarification, not an errata. Channel applied to the entire charge cause of the wording before this as well.

[Dogmantra]

It's not an errata though, it's an FAQ to clarify - the ability has always said "for the duration of the action" and actions causing actions says that an action only ends after all the actions it causes are done.

and idk, like he kills stuff sure, but if he wants to do his unburying thing, that means he's got no out-of-activation presence. Compare to another big melee hitter master like Mah or Lady J, and they have so much more area control, which is far more important than killing in most games.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

It's not an errata though, it's an FAQ to clarify - the ability has always said "for the duration of the action" and actions causing actions says that an action only ends after all the actions it causes are done.

and idk, like he kills stuff sure, but if he wants to do his unburying thing, that means he's got no out-of-activation presence. Compare to another big melee hitter master like Mah or Lady J, and they have so much more area control, which is far more important than killing in most games.

Any way you look at it, the ruling got changed from you cannot to you can. And as far as board control he has amazing area coverage. He can teleport 10" to the Ashes and Dust for now cost. Plus his 12" weapon.

[Dogmantra]

The ruling's the same, it has just been clarified for people who were doing it wrong, perhaps in your group the ruling has changed, but it has always supposed to have been done as in the FAQ: "If an Action calls for another Action to be taken (such as Charge or "Make a New Entry") then the additional Action or Actions do not cost any AP. The original Action is not considered resolved until the new Actions are also resolved." (Actions causing Actions pg 38 big rulebook, my emphasis). Leveticus was clearly made with this in mind, so I don't doubt he's balanced around channel working on an entire charge.

And yes, he does have the large threat range, but my point is that he is very squishy, and so to not lose waifs, it's often in his best interest to act early in a turn and then bury himself, meaning he won't engage any models or draw fire for the rest of the turn.

[E.T.A. Hoffman]

The ruling's the same, it has just been clarified for people who were doing it wrong, perhaps in your group the ruling has changed, but it has always supposed to have been done as in the FAQ: "If an Action calls for another Action to be taken (such as Charge or "Make a New Entry") then the additional Action or Actions do not cost any AP. The original Action is not considered resolved until the new Actions are also resolved." (Actions causing Actions pg 38 big rulebook, my emphasis). Leveticus was clearly made with this in mind, so I don't doubt he's balanced around channel working on an entire charge.

And yes, he does have the large threat range, but my point is that he is very squishy, and so to not lose waifs, it's often in his best interest to act early in a turn and then bury himself, meaning he won't engage any models or draw fire for the rest of the turn.

I don't think he's squishy at all. It's very much a challenge to actually kill those waifs. I can hardly think of any time I've seen him die.

[daniello_s]

Levi squishy...

Best joke I have heard this weekend

[Dogmantra]

he has 8 wounds and 5 defense.

he is very squishy for a master

[decker_cky]

He's probably the least squishy master in the game...

[Dogmantra]

When I say squishy I mean that he is relatively easy to get down to 0 wounds. He's hard to make stay dead, but if you reduce him to 0 wounds before his activation, he doesn't do anything that turn and loses a waif, which works with my point that it's normally in his best interests to bury quickly.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I see both points here, ad while it might be a clarification, absolutely no one I know of EVER tried to do this either during testing or after, which means, and I admit I could be wrong, that if nothing else this is an ability that wasn't fully tested. The ruling on focus now surprises me as with this as precedent, aside from weasely wording, why exactly is it not OP for one of the most, if not THE most powerful master in the game to get such a boost, with an almost negligible cost, when other models cannot focus, and get the bonus on both attacks on the charge?

I'm with ETA that this seems bonkers to me. Time will tell though.

[Dogmantra]

I wouldn't really call it "weasely wording", they're two explicitly different things. Focus only applies to the declared action's duel and damage flip, which charge does not have.

Masters are kind of supposed to have all the ridiculously powerful stuff. I'm not denying that channeling a charge is powerful, but plenty of masters can kill a model in one turn, and when he's pretty strongly encouraged to re-bury at the end of his activation anyway, what's the difference how many wounds he took?

[zFiend]

Masters are kind of supposed to have all the ridiculously powerful stuff

Tell that to Lucius. 

Anyway Leveticus already had ridiculously powerful stuff.. Before this. 

 

[solkan]

The two neverborn minions in the starter set have

Frenzied Charges:  This model gains to the Attack flips of any Attacks it generates due to the Charge Action.

That's completely automatic for the little five point minions, if this is going to get derailed into a discussion about what is and isn't overpowered to do the actions generated by a charge.

And I think anyone who says that Face of Death is a useless trigger has never been stuck in the middle of a turn with a hand full of aces and threes wishing that they had gotten better luck on the draw.  I think having  on the damage flip would be worth taking two damage and discarding some aces. 

 

Edited September 28, 2015 by solkan

[Tawg]

 

And I think anyone who says that Face of Death is a useless trigger has never been stuck in the middle of a turn with a hand full of aces and threes wishing that they had gotten better luck on the draw.  I think having  on the damage flip would be worth taking two damage and discarding some aces. 

 

You can only go up to 3x [+] right?  For a total of 4 cards flipped?  Or were you just saying 4 cards on a positive flip?  Just making sure I am not misunderstanding that limit off hand.  (Granted 4x [+] would be able to happen, and apply against any [-], right?).

[santaclaws01]

 

And I think anyone who says that Face of Death is a useless trigger has never been stuck in the middle of a turn with a hand full of aces and threes wishing that they had gotten better luck on the draw.  I think having  on the damage flip would be worth taking two damage and discarding some aces. 

 

You can only go up to 3x [+] right?  For a total of 4 cards flipped?  Or were you just saying 4 cards on a positive flip?  Just making sure I am not misunderstanding that limit off hand.  (Granted 4x [+] would be able to happen, and apply against any [-], right?).

The trigger only gives up to , but if you channeled when declaring the charge that's another , and if you channeled the attack also that's another , so Levi can have a base total of  to the damage flip before factoring in anything like HtW or whatever / you might have gotten from the flip itself.

Though this is a bit of a double edged sword in that every card you flip increases your chances of drawing the black joker.

Edited September 28, 2015 by santaclaws01

[Astrella]

How powerful Channel is or isn't doesn't matter for what it actually does though, how to read a rule doesn't depend on how powerful the reading will be, it will depend on which reading is correct.

[daniello_s]

Doesn't matter where this discussion takes us the fact is that this latest buff was absolutely unnecessary as Levi was already one of the strongest masters in the game. Additional ruling makes him even more broken.

BTW, I don't really remember when the last time I was charging with Levi...

[Astrella]

But it's not a buff, that's the point. He's always been able to do this, nothing about the rules has changed. Just because some people overlooked it doesn't mean it wasn't there.

[Patzer]

Can Leve Channel on the 2 taken actions though. He declares a charges, while declaring the charge he takes 2 damage from channel and gets the positives, then, while charging he gets to take two (NB! it is not declare). Channel only applies when you declare an action. So I am not to sure that he gets to Channel during the charge. At least I wouldn't rule it like he could. 

Edit. To clarify with an example. If a model got Firing Squad Injustice on it and declares a charge, it won't suffer damage while taking the two attack actions. However, if a model got Drowning Injustice on it and declares a charge, it will suffer two damage from declaring the tactical action charge, but while taking the two subsequent (attack) actions. 

Edited September 28, 2015 by Patzer

[zFiend]

But it's not a buff, that's the point. He's always been able to do this, nothing about the rules has changed. Just because some people overlooked it doesn't mean it wasn't there.

Oh but it is a buff. Because majority of the players read that thing a whole lotta different than it was then later faq'd. It was faq'd in Leveticus' favour. Take the dumb luck ruling and tell me that goes along the lines of rules as they were written. Nope it doesn't. It does make dumb luck not so dumb though. 

[Patzer]

But it's not a buff, that's the point. He's always been able to do this, nothing about the rules has changed. Just because some people overlooked it doesn't mean it wasn't there.

It does make dumb luck not so dumb though. 

What do you mean by this, Zfiend? 

[zFiend]

If you read the dumb luck as it is written. The damage reduction, SS use and everything should reduce the damage the gremlin suffers. Yet it was ruled against that for the sake of the game. The Levi charge + channel was however ruled in favor of Levi. Which makes it a buff. 

[Patzer]

If you read the dumb luck as it is written. The damage reduction, SS use and everything should reduce the damage the gremlin suffers. Yet it was ruled against that for the sake of the game. The Levi charge + channel was however ruled in favor of Levi. Which makes it a buff. 

Ok!

Yeah, its a buff for sure. However, as I stated in a previous post, I think he can only do it once if he charges. Granted that it still very much a buff while shooting, and against pesky defenses like Horror Duels and Manipulative (which Leveticus in general doesn't have that of hard time getting past thanks to his high willpower). 

[santaclaws01]

Can Leve Channel on the 2 taken actions though. He declares a charges, while declaring the charge he takes 2 damage from channel and gets the positives, then, while charging he gets to take two (NB! it is not declare). Channel only applies when you declare an action. So I am not to sure that he gets to Channel during the charge. At least I wouldn't rule it like he could. 

Edit. To clarify with an example. If a model got Firing Squad Injustice on it and declares a charge, it won't suffer damage while taking the two attack actions. However, if a model got Drowning Injustice on it and declares a charge, it will suffer two damage from declaring the tactical action charge, but while taking the two subsequent (attack) actions. 

Yes. You can channel before declaring any action. Declaring an action is part of taking the action. If you do not declare it it is unable to be taken. It's just a foregone conclusion that the attack is being declared and what model it is targeting with things like Charge because they have to be on the same target. As for your example about Firing Squad Injustice, the models will take 2 damage per attack action from the charge.