Do Changelings have an Engagement range?

[Philosfr]

So in discussions about Changelings, I'm trying to figure out if they actually have an engagement range. They have no attacks of their own, so there's a possibility they just plain don't have an engagement range. On the other hand, Copycat says "this model may take (1) attack actions printed on any model or upgrade within 3 inch aura..."

The question gets more complicated when the Changeling has multiple models within 3 inches. Take for example a Changeling near someone with a relic hammer and Baby Kade. 3" and 1" reach respectively. If someone wants to move around the Changeling, does the Changeling get a disengaging strike? If they do, do they get to pick whether it happens at 3" or 1" or since they have both options it's automatically 3"?

This also applies for preventing interact actions and for determining engagement range for shoot attacks. Is a Changeling engaged if there is a friendly behind it with a 2" reach and it is 1.5" inches away from an enemy with a 1" reach?

Here's another situation... what happens if Candy targets a Changeling with some self-harm? Since it has no action of it's own, does it take zero damage, or is it forced to borrow the relic hammer from a nearby model to smack itself?

I think Copycat would work similar to having all those attack options on the card and therefore all of the above applies... they are engaged for range attacks, they are engaged for preventing interacts and they use the longest reach to determine disengaging strikes. But I have enough doubt, I figured I would ask.

[Justin]

 

• The shadow committee is listening, reading, and judging everyone's posts, whether we think something is FAQ worthy or not.

 

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[Dogmantra]

The changeling doesn't have a attack and so wouldn't have an engagement range. It can take those actions but it doesn't have them. Same with Candy's self harm, you select a (1) attack action on the target to use as damage. Since changelings don't have any, you can't pick one.

Of course, changelings can still engage enemy models by sitting in the enemy's range.

[Adran]

On 22/09/2015 at 8:03 PM, Philosfr said:

 

I can understand if this is the intent since it's a pretty cool 4 SS model as is, but wanted to confirm it since it's a little bit fuzzy.

http://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/126497-changeling-attack-range/

 

[Philosfr]

1. It appears to have no engagement range until it takes a (1) Attack Action from another model. The same goes for its Surprise! ability apparently - Attack Action this model may take. At least that's how I see it. 

2. As written, it requires a (1) on the target, but if the target has no legal action, it would appear to take the Wp duel, pass or fail, then apply the result. No attack means no damage. 

So a Changeling couldn't prevent an interact action or prevent a model from disengaging? I mean, if it stood in someone else's engagement range, they would have to move first, but with no engagement range the Changeling couldn't prevent that and then the model could drop a marker. Even though the Changeling could Copycat a 3" relic hammer attack from another model that's within range? Not disagreeing, just clarifying what you're saying.

I can understand if this is the intent since it's a pretty cool 4 SS model as is, but wanted to confirm it since it's a little bit fuzzy.

 

[Dogmantra]

Looking at the small rules handbook page 48, it seems the rules for engagement may give the Changeling an engagement range. "Every model has an “engagement range” equal to the distance of its longest range Close (y) Attack."

of its longest range attack.

the changeling doesn't have any claw attacks.

[Philosfr]

Looking at the small rules handbook page 48, it seems the rules for engagement may give the Changeling an engagement range. "Every model has an “engagement range” equal to the distance of its longest range Close (y) Attack."

There's nothing about the model needing the ability printed on it's card or anything else. Since Copycat says the Changeling may use (1) Attack Actions, it would seem to me that the Changeling has an engagement range equal to the longest engagement range of any attack available to it.

If Copycat somehow implied that it was only during the Changeling's turn, I'd completely agree that the Changeling doesn't have an engagement range. But Copycat just says it can use it, in which case it seems like it can be used for disengaging strikes. The rules for Disengaging Strikes (pg 48-49) also just say one attack action, and the Copycat allows the Changeling to take an attack action printed on another card.

I know the consensus seems to be that Changelings don't have an engagement range and I'm even sorta wondering if that shouldn't be the case, but the only written rules I can find imply they do.

I believe the difference here is that the Changeling doesn't have it's own printed to generate an engagement range. When it takes the action of another model, it gains a for that action. When it uses Surprise! it gains for that action. Like I said, and even as a Neverborn player, I would rule it as "no engagement range" because it doesn't have a until it declares an action that uses one. 

I certainly follow the logic, and it would make sense why Surprise! was worded as it was, rather than just using the standard Pounce.

Unfortunately I've been playing it as they DO have engagement ranges and I've had several opponents look at the card and no one has argued. So it seems like at first glance, people are getting this one "wrong" if you have the right ruling. Smells like a FAQ clarification would be beneficial.

[solkan]

Looking at the small rules handbook page 48, it seems the rules for engagement may give the Changeling an engagement range. "Every model has an “engagement range” equal to the distance of its longest range Close (y) Attack."

There's nothing about the model needing the ability printed on it's card or anything else. Since Copycat says the Changeling may use (1) Attack Actions, it would seem to me that the Changeling has an engagement range equal to the longest engagement range of any attack available to it.

If Copycat somehow implied that it was only during the Changeling's turn, I'd completely agree that the Changeling doesn't have an engagement range. But Copycat just says it can use it, in which case it seems like it can be used for disengaging strikes. The rules for Disengaging Strikes (pg 48-49) also just say one attack action, and the Copycat allows the Changeling to take an attack action printed on another card.

I know the consensus seems to be that Changelings don't have an engagement range and I'm even sorta wondering if that shouldn't be the case, but the only written rules I can find imply they do.

I believe the difference here is that the Changeling doesn't have it's own printed to generate an engagement range. When it takes the action of another model, it gains a for that action. When it uses Surprise! it gains for that action. Like I said, and even as a Neverborn player, I would rule it as "no engagement range" because it doesn't have a until it declares an action that uses one. 

I certainly follow the logic, and it would make sense why Surprise! was worded as it was, rather than just using the standard Pounce.

Unfortunately I've been playing it as they DO have engagement ranges and I've had several opponents look at the card and no one has argued. So it seems like at first glance, people are getting this one "wrong" if you have the right ruling. Smells like a FAQ clarification would be beneficial.

I once played a 50ss tournament game like ten to fifteen soulstones over, by accident.  My opponent didn't notice until about half way through the game, and he looked over my cards at the start. 

So "I thought I was okay, and my opponent didn't say anything" doesn't necessarily mean anything. 

[Philosfr]

So "I thought I was okay, and my opponent didn't say anything" doesn't necessarily mean anything. 

Heh, I didn't mean that the ruling was good, I just meant that it isn't very obvious. It's not like the Doppleganger where you have to take an action to copy something, Changelings just get it. I didn't even think of the issue until a recent game had a question about how long the engagement range was. It was assumed it had at least some, but not sure if it got to pick which attack or if it had to use the longest attack.

Hence my thinking if it might be worthy of clarification in either direction for the rules.

[solkan]

So "I thought I was okay, and my opponent didn't say anything" doesn't necessarily mean anything. 

Heh, I didn't mean that the ruling was good, I just meant that it isn't very obvious. It's not like the Doppleganger where you have to take an action to copy something, Changelings just get it. I didn't even think of the issue until a recent game had a question about how long the engagement range was. It was assumed it had at least some, but not sure if it got to pick which attack or if it had to use the longest attack.

Hence my thinking if it might be worthy of clarification in either direction for the rules.

Well, sure.  But there's a few logistical issues with that:

• The FAQ/errata gets published every two months or so, so you're not likely to see an answer until November at the earliest.
• The selection criteria for getting into the FAQ is secret.  One expects that a controversial question is going to get the shadow FAQ committee's attention, but one never knows.  (All hail to the wise and all knowing shadow committee which may or may not exist.  )
• Even if there's a really big argument over a potential FAQ question, we generally don't find out whether something is going in the FAQ (or how it's going to be answered) until it's published.  Really big fights generally get addressed by telling everyone to calm down and knock it off, too.
• The shadow committee is listening, reading, and judging everyone's posts, whether we think something is FAQ worthy or not.

 

Edited September 22, 2015 by solkan

[Philosfr]

So "I thought I was okay, and my opponent didn't say anything" doesn't necessarily mean anything. 

Heh, I didn't mean that the ruling was good, I just meant that it isn't very obvious. It's not like the Doppleganger where you have to take an action to copy something, Changelings just get it. I didn't even think of the issue until a recent game had a question about how long the engagement range was. It was assumed it had at least some, but not sure if it got to pick which attack or if it had to use the longest attack.

Hence my thinking if it might be worthy of clarification in either direction for the rules.

Well, sure.  But there's a few logistical issues with that:

• The FAQ/errata gets published every two months or so, so you're not likely to see an answer until November at the earliest.
• The selection criteria for getting into the FAQ is secret.  One expects that a controversial question is going to get the shadow FAQ committee's attention, but one never knows.  (All hail to the wise and all knowing shadow committee which may or may not exist.  )
• Even if there's a really big argument over a potential FAQ question, we generally don't find out whether something is going in the FAQ (or how it's going to be answered) until it's published.  Really big fights generally get addressed by telling everyone to calm down and knock it off, too.
• The shadow committee is listening, reading, and judging everyone's posts, whether we think something is FAQ worthy or not.

 

Oh, I know. I've read the forums for years, but it wasn't until Nythera that I really got into posting

I'm tentatively going to play Changelings without having any engagement rage (except on their activation when attacking or using Surprise!), but am hoping for something official in the Nov FAQ.

That raises an interesting side effect of this ruling though. Since a Changeling has no melee reach, what happens when it's paralyzed? I certainly would argue RAI that it wouldn't be able to use something like Surprise! in that case, but I could see people making a case from the logic of why they don't have an engagement range normally...

[Masquer]

If you are engaging a Changeling, you still cannot Interact without leaving your own engagement range. But, yes, you could totally walk away without any issue, if that is how I am reading it. From the look of the abilities, it never engages another model. 

That's what they always think, and then the Changeling is right there behind them again, just like in other horror media.  Lovely design.

[Bengt]

 

• The selection criteria for getting into the FAQ is secret.  One expects that a controversial question is going to get the shadow FAQ committee's attention, but one never knows.  (All hail to the wise and all knowing shadow committee which may or may not exist.  )

The selection criteria is described here: http://justindrawingdead.com/?p=119 Obviously there is still going to be some subjectivity in selecting the exact questions, but the guiding principles aren't secret.

[PeregrineFalcon]

They do have an engagement range its that of any model within 3" of them. I don't see it any other way. Until we hear officially otherwise I'd rule they do have an engagement range. Pg. 48 of small rulebook says every model has an  an "engagement range" equal to the distance of its longest range Close() Attack. It has the attack of any model within 3. The enemy tries to leave its engagement range it may take the disengaging strike.

If it gets FAQ-ed then fine, but I'd be surprised.

[santaclaws01]

They do have an engagement range its that of any model within 3" of them. I don't see it any other way. Until we hear officially otherwise I'd rule they do have an engagement range. Pg. 48 of small rulebook says every model has an  an "engagement range" equal to the distance of its longest range Close() Attack. It has the attack of any model within 3. The enemy tries to leave its engagement range it may take the disengaging strike.

If it gets FAQ-ed then fine, but I'd be surprised.

They have an engagement range equal to the distance of its longest range close() Attack. Changlings do not have such an attack. They are able to use other models' actions, but they do not have those actions. You can not set up a chain of Changlings and have them all copy the same Action from a model at the end of the chain.

They do have such an attack if they are within 3 of a model that has one, but it doesn't get added to their card. That is the only thing stopping the chain that you are speaking of. Just because they don't have it printed on their card, doesn't mean that they don't have it, instead their copycat rule indicates that they do have it.

Cheers,

Woo.

No, they don't have the attack. They can only take the attack.

[Ceodoc]

I am correct in assuming that the FAQ cleared up the engagement range debate, they have none.

Just wondered on the consensus of Surprise ranged attacks with focus.

Have had a few different opinions.

The Changeling is within 3" of a Trapper, Collodi has given the Changeling focus.

Question has been does the surprise attack now use the extra range of the 'focused' attack (ie 24").

" different theories have been, which both seem valid to me are:

No, you have to use the focus to gain the extra range.

Yes, the focused attack is something the Changeling 'may' use.

So lets say I go to a tournament and I want to try this, how do I word it, or sell it.

I don't want to look like a douche, more than I am already by taking Trappers and Changelings ;p

[santaclaws01]

They do have an engagement range its that of any model within 3" of them. I don't see it any other way. Until we hear officially otherwise I'd rule they do have an engagement range. Pg. 48 of small rulebook says every model has an  an "engagement range" equal to the distance of its longest range Close() Attack. It has the attack of any model within 3. The enemy tries to leave its engagement range it may take the disengaging strike.

If it gets FAQ-ed then fine, but I'd be surprised.

They have an engagement range equal to the distance of its longest range close() Attack. Changlings do not have such an attack. They are able to use other models' actions, but they do not have those actions. You can not set up a chain of Changlings and have them all copy the same Action from a model at the end of the chain.

[Philosfr]

Looking at the small rules handbook page 48, it seems the rules for engagement may give the Changeling an engagement range. "Every model has an “engagement range” equal to the distance of its longest range Close (y) Attack."

There's nothing about the model needing the ability printed on it's card or anything else. Since Copycat says the Changeling may use (1) Attack Actions, it would seem to me that the Changeling has an engagement range equal to the longest engagement range of any attack available to it.

If Copycat somehow implied that it was only during the Changeling's turn, I'd completely agree that the Changeling doesn't have an engagement range. But Copycat just says it can use it, in which case it seems like it can be used for disengaging strikes. The rules for Disengaging Strikes (pg 48-49) also just say one attack action, and the Copycat allows the Changeling to take an attack action printed on another card.

I know the consensus seems to be that Changelings don't have an engagement range and I'm even sorta wondering if that shouldn't be the case, but the only written rules I can find imply they do.

[Woo]

They do have an engagement range its that of any model within 3" of them. I don't see it any other way. Until we hear officially otherwise I'd rule they do have an engagement range. Pg. 48 of small rulebook says every model has an  an "engagement range" equal to the distance of its longest range Close() Attack. It has the attack of any model within 3. The enemy tries to leave its engagement range it may take the disengaging strike.

If it gets FAQ-ed then fine, but I'd be surprised.

They have an engagement range equal to the distance of its longest range close() Attack. Changlings do not have such an attack. They are able to use other models' actions, but they do not have those actions. You can not set up a chain of Changlings and have them all copy the same Action from a model at the end of the chain.

They do have such an attack if they are within 3 of a model that has one, but it doesn't get added to their card. That is the only thing stopping the chain that you are speaking of. Just because they don't have it printed on their card, doesn't mean that they don't have it, instead their copycat rule indicates that they do have it.

Cheers,

Woo.