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"Combinations" and "Interactions" That You Could Swear Are Actually Exploits and Loopholes


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Recently, Justin posted a really good question in a thread about the easiest and hardest schemes in Malifaux (this one: http://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/110133-what-are-the-easiest-and-hardest-schemes-to-achieve/ ). 

A lot of the talk was about some of the mid range difficulty schemes and how some masters can achieve specific schemes far easier than others. I was brainstorming about that when I started thinking about all the dumb interactions I've witnessed that are less "gotcha" or "surprise" and more "that's just plain stupid - why is that even in the game."

I know, I know... consider this the customary nod to the whole "we aren't in beta anymore" thing - haha, I beat you to it. This is more of a "FAQ this for me plzthx" kind of thing. ;)

In case you're not sure what I am really getting at, I will give you a couple of personal examples of what I think the worst interactions in the game are that, imo, should not exist:

1) Companion'ing Yourself - A model being able to companion itself is ridiculous and can lead to a lot of stupidly easy situations. The emphasis here is not that the player just happened to make a solid strategic decision that worked out and more on the whole "ezmode 3VP in the bank." So yeah, that silly McCabe dog BS? Not fun - just dumb. Not to mention that whole dogs4daiz build reminds me of that annoying W/U Sword Birds deck in MtG a coupla blocks ago. Dogs with swords is pretty lame - oh, well. 

If you don't think this is a dumb interaction - try looking up "companion" in the dictionary. Moving on...

 

2) Austringers - in general... just kidding. But seriously, that part about being able to order a trap to plant a scheme marker seems like an unintentional loophole - not a super sweet combo.

3) Molly's Drowned Scheme Marker BS - Having a model come "into play" for a split second only to "die" and drop a free scheme marker feels like cheesey gamey BS to me. The kind of thing that makes you roll your eyes and go "oh, this is the kind of game we are going to play is it?" Bring on the loophole rules lawyering.

Unfortunately, there are a lot of just plain unfun cheesey stuff you can do in this game - like hiring a bunch of rats for out activating your opponent Rathnard style. Its effective, but honestly, pretty lame. Stuff like that has legitimacy to it though because of the style of play associated with the combo - ie. A large focus of Hamelin's strategy. So even though the rats thing is kind of lame - I can appreciate where its coming from.

 

This is not a "let's fix this game, guys" thread. This is just a discussion to see what people feel are legitimate interactions and what is cheesey gamey BS and what is just plain "the developers probably just didn't see that coming." Thoughts?

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I'm not sure I agree with your Molly Sentiment, unless the ability of any model in the game to just interact to drop a scheme marker is non-sense. If you prefer to look at it this way, there just happens to exist a model that essentially allows her to summon a scheme marker rather than a full model. Hardly game breaking for the resources, AP and range such an ability gives her. And as an aside that was an interaction that was specifically looked at during the open beta, as was the Dead Doxy's ability to give a model fast when it is killed, as the killed by enemy requirement was added later, and wasn't a part of the original ability.

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"Cheesey gamey BS"? Who are you and what have you don't to SEG? :D

But seriously, a good topic! And I agree about the first and the second but the third one was specifically looked at in the beta and therefore is prolly working as intended.

With Companion, don't forget Colette giving Myranda Reactivate (Sac at the end of turn), her companioning to herself and ending by changing into a Beast thus sidestepping the intended downside.

As for traps, we just discussed that very thing with ZFiend in our latest game. It' probably just a limitation of space on the front and no one catching it during the beta but it is certainly very silly.

Papa in the box is another one - I don't think that was an intended interaction and is altogether highly, highly silly.

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I dislike Dreamer and Levi discarding Distracted and Cursed Object by burying.

Does that actually work? Distract and CO both say no other action may remove this condition (except for the (2) interact and TN 12 Wk duel). If their Bury does remove the condition then that sounds like an unintentional loophole. Same with Hamelin choosing not to gain Distracted or CO. Masters shouldn't be allowed to side-step VP conditions as a core rule for them.

 

On the Molly thing, SEG I'm surprised that you'd come out with that! It requires a Masters AP, 10:crow or SS to essentially interact (within 6/7") and place the marker. I don't think its on the same level as a reactivating Dog with nimble that companions itself for 3VP (6 if its Frame for Murder too)

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Does that actually work? Distract and CO both say no other action may remove this condition (except for the (2) interact and TN 12 Wk duel). If their Bury does remove the condition then that sounds like an unintentional loophole. Same with Hamelin choosing not to gain Distracted or CO. Masters shouldn't be allowed to side-step VP conditions as a core rule for them.

Because their Bury is not an Action. And I do agree that side-stepping VP Conditions seems very much like a loophole.

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Does that actually work? Distract and CO both say no other action may remove this condition (except for the (2) interact and TN 12 Wk duel). If their Bury does remove the condition then that sounds like an unintentional loophole. Same with Hamelin choosing not to gain Distracted or CO. Masters shouldn't be allowed to side-step VP conditions as a core rule for them.

Abilities are not actions, so it does work that way. Side-stepping that vp stuff is indeed a loophole. 

A thing I remember being pissed with was when my enemy killed his own performer to reactivate his Mech Rider. Might be because I would have won otherwise. 

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Abilities are not actions, so it does work that way. Side-stepping that vp stuff is indeed a loophole. 

A thing I remember being pissed with was when my enemy killed his own performer to reactivate his Mech Rider. Might be because I would have won otherwise. 

Your opponent cheated if that happened as the performer specifies minion or showgirl for the re activate of which the rider is neither.

 

i don't have a problem with the avoiding distract/cursed object thing because they are not master specific.  So it is not as if it means you can never gain those vp.  I think Leveticus  with assassinate is a far bigger offender as it is nearly impossible to claim full vp on said scheme.(need a way to kill him while buried.) and even that I don't have a large problem with.

the companion yourself thing was literally FAQ'd to work, so though it seems a bit odd I generally don't mind as again it is pretty infrequent (essentially you need re activate).  As for ezmode vp, there are plenty of things that I consider that easy, that are working as intended.

 

 

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Your opponent cheated if that happened as the performer specifies minion or showgirl for the re activate of which the rider is neither.

Huh, I could have sworn it did work for everyone. I even did re-read the ability. :/ Might be my fuzzy memory and it was a Duet he did reactivate instead of a Mech Rider. I still don't like killing your own guys for such abilities. (Sure, there are some moments where killing your own guys denies VP and such, and I am fine with those. I was more thinking of Joss and the Spider factory.)

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Hamelin having a 12 inch (in diameter) bubble as a hard counter to all melee models really baffles me. Forget about having fun with a non-ranged crew.

Sybelle having an execution trigger with only 1 suit required is also pretty crazy.

Summoning in general. It's just too strong compared to the ressources you put in.

The Distract scheme really annoys me. It's basically a (1) Paralyze.

Oiran missing one of the suits on their lure.

And lastly, Hannahs bury spell. At ca 6 it's way too easy to pull of, and she's hard to take down as well.

 

Damn, I needed to vent it seems :D

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Abilities are not actions, so it does work that way. Side-stepping that vp stuff is indeed a loophole. 

A thing I remember being pissed with was when my enemy killed his own performer to reactivate his Mech Rider. Might be because I would have won otherwise. 

That might be because it is not a rules glitch but flagrant cheating since the mech rider is neither a minion or a showgirl last time I looked.

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Hamelin having a 12 inch (in diameter) bubble as a hard counter to all melee models really baffles me. Forget about having fun with a non-ranged crew.

Sybelle having an execution trigger with only 1 suit required is also pretty crazy.

Summoning in general. It's just too strong compared to the ressources you put in.

The Distract scheme really annoys me. It's basically a (1) Paralyze.

Oiran missing one of the suits on their lure.

And lastly, Hannahs bury spell. At ca 6 it's way too easy to pull of, and she's hard to take down as well.

 

Damn, I needed to vent it seems :D

Not sure most of these are oversighs but rather purposefully placed there. 

On Hamelin: I assume it's the no charge aura? Considering how many models who can shut down shooting almost completely it would seem that a few models who can negate some effectiveness of melee isn't totally game breaking. Considering it's an aura on a height 2, 30mm base it should also be somewhat possible to block. The whole activation nonsense with rats and kings and whatnot bothers me far far more but also seems to have been put in knowingly which baffles me.

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Even though I love him, I reckon basically everything Sensei Yu can do is in some way a loophole.

By far the worst, though thankfully the hardest to pull off, is using the Soul Porter's Bladed Spear attack to put Chi on Yu, who can then Disciple Yan Lo's Ascendence ability to attach the Ascendant upgrades to himself. The prospect of a Sensei Yu with High River Style and Hunpo Assault is pretty darn silly, never mind being able to get a second Terracotta Curse, or simply having Sensei Yu with Incorporeal or Impossible to Wound. Not to mention that Yan Lo himself can still attach the same upgrades, since they aren't rare, and things start to get a little silly if you can pull it off.

Honourable mentions go to copying Take This for the most ridiculous amount of movement tricks you can pull off with two models (McCabe gives Sensei Yu the Badge of Speed, pushing him 4", does his thing, Yu activates, Airbursts another model, walks up to them, Mighty Gusts them to push again and give fast, then Disciples Take This to throw the Badge of Speed onto the same model, pushing it another 4" and giving it Nimble as well...), enabling the 5AP Misaki (7AP if you count the 10" he's pushed her as a pair of walks for her), which is only going to get sillier with the Shadow Emissary ("My Thunder attack, which generated an extra blast marker because I focussed, just killed three weak models, I gain 3AP!"), and the hilarity that is technically his intended place of two master martial artists drawing shapes in the air to let a pair of snipers fire two focussed shots each a turn, at +1Sh.

Nobody breaks it better... makes me feel sad for the rest.

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I'm not sure I buy the whole focus of this topic. I usually describe Malifaux by saying "It's a game where everyone is overpowered, but because everyone is overpowered, it ends up balanced".

The wide range of people finding "loopholes, unintended interactions, and weird combinations" here tells me that's true. Sure, Luna can deliver a message on Turn 1. Sure you can't assassinate Leveticus. But we all get 5 schemes to pick from in most cases, so we don't have to choose Assassinate if we're facing Leveticus and McCabe won't always get Deliver a Message. 

If all these things weren't fairly balanced by other facets of the game, I would expect to see them winning in tournaments and dominating in local shops. Most places have that one player who will be bound to use every cheap trick just to win. But I don't see that happening. Yeah, these tricks suck the first time or two you run into them, but then you either figure out how to deal with it or figure out your own trick to balance it out.

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Even though I love him, I reckon basically everything Sensei Yu can do is in some way a loophole.

By far the worst, though thankfully the hardest to pull off, is using the Soul Porter's Bladed Spear attack to put Chi on Yu, who can then Disciple Yan Lo's Ascendence ability to attach the Ascendant upgrades to himself. The prospect of a Sensei Yu with High River Style and Hunpo Assault is pretty darn silly, never mind being able to get a second Terracotta Curse, or simply having Sensei Yu with Incorporeal or Impossible to Wound. Not to mention that Yan Lo himself can still attach the same upgrades, since they aren't rare, and things start to get a little silly if you can pull it off.

Honourable mentions go to copying Take This for the most ridiculous amount of movement tricks you can pull off with two models (McCabe gives Sensei Yu the Badge of Speed, pushing him 4", does his thing, Yu activates, Airbursts another model, walks up to them, Mighty Gusts them to push again and give fast, then Disciples Take This to throw the Badge of Speed onto the same model, pushing it another 4" and giving it Nimble as well...), enabling the 5AP Misaki (7AP if you count the 10" he's pushed her as a pair of walks for her), which is only going to get sillier with the Shadow Emissary ("My Thunder attack, which generated an extra blast marker because I focussed, just killed three weak models, I gain 3AP!"), and the hilarity that is technically his intended place of two master martial artists drawing shapes in the air to let a pair of snipers fire two focussed shots each a turn, at +1Sh.

Nobody breaks it better... makes me feel sad for the rest.

Yu is pretty hilarious with Misaki, but I question being able to run McCabe and Misaki in the same crew (unless you're very specifically doing a two Master game for funsies).

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Yu is pretty hilarious with Misaki, but I question being able to run McCabe and Misaki in the same crew (unless you're very specifically doing a two Master game for funsies).

I wasn't talking about having them in the same crew. You only need Yu to enable the 5AP Misaki (two pushes, fast and using disciple to stalk something; she then has 4AP and a (0) Bisento against the stalked target). I could have formatted better, that large paragraph is three examples; Yu with McCabe, Yu with Misaki, and Yu with Shenlong and snipers.

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I honestly don't care for Paralyzed at all and would be glad to have it removed completely. I know not a lot of models use it and Raspy would have to be reworked, but basically not getting to use your models for a turn (or several) leads to a less than fun gaming experience. Slow I don't mind as you generally still can do something.

I haven't played as much as others so some of the above combos are new to me. I do agree that Shenlong and Yu tend to break things a bit. I've never been a fan of Leveticus (rules, not fluff). He was big part of the reason I turned away from 1st edition. 

Companioning yourself is a bit... silly. Shouldn't' happen too often though.

While Molly's scheme shenanigans seem odd, they are somewhat resource heavy just to get a scheme marker. Colette and company can do far worse scheme marker craziness.

I understand people's issues with summoning as well, but I feel the current edition does a pretty good job of balancing this. I am a bit biased as a Nicodem player though :) I could see limiting it more or making it only once per turn kind of thing. 

I don't look forward to ever playing against the Mech Rider or Ashes and Dust...

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Paralyzed sucks, but there's nearly always an option to remove it in every faction (NB finally got their own with the Scion and a painful one with the Emissary now). Johan as a mercenary at the very least. Having an option like Paralyze on the table makes a big impact on playstyles. Do I cheat this high card to do extra damage, or do I opt to save it for the horror duel I'm about to make next activation to avoid paralyze? Without a debilitating option like Paralyze, the whole game would change.

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