Dual Faction Master Rabbit Hole

[D_acolyte]

Well after high jacking a thread about Ironside with this I figure it might as well be in the general faction area, because honestly it make no sense that it happened in the faction with the least dual faction masters.

I tend to think the game is running into an issue with dual faction masters, no I am not saying that they are bad. What dual faction masters do you like and why and where do you think they have gone wrong. I think the goal with dual faction masters is to be equal but different between there factions

Feel free to talk about theme or feel of a faction or master.

 

I may start one for multi faction crew leading masters like Marcus or we can cover them here as well, what do people think? I could go either way.

[D_acolyte]

I might as well start:

Lucius (Neverborn): he brings a lot to the Neverborn, mostly a lot of shooting but I find people go down Rabbit Hole too much and I feel that they often end up playing Guild with a purple label often loading up on Riflemen and Dashel. I played Lucius once with a mostly Nephilim list and I do not think he needs the guards to be effective or useful and as such I feel the standard guard heavy Neverborn list detracts from the feel of the faction. I think this is a bad thing because it takes away from the feel of the faction.

Lucius (Guild): I do not play guild but I have seen him in it. I think where his standard build tends to detract from Neverborn I think he is a nice augment to guild adding some good trick and control pieces. The two that pops to mind are Doppleganger, Candy, or beckoners. Unlike with Neverborn I often do not see more than one of these in a Lucius Guild list and almost never more than two. The one I see most often is the Doppleganger for Ill Omens. I think this is a good thing for him as he augments your list.

Lynch (Neverborn): I he literally ports nothing from the 10 thunders over and I think that is a small issue.

Lynch (10 Thunders): He brings beckoners which are great at luring and stitched together which can be useful. The biggest issue is that the brilliance focus way of building or his crew does not care about your faction as he loses very little if anything by being one or the other. I tend to feel that Ten Thunders make better use of his card and ace tricks than the Neverborn, which I feel is a good thing as I think dual faction masters should play differently in one faction or the other.

Mie (Arcanists): This is often how I run her, I feel the Arcanists upgrades and fire gamin are great with her. She also lets you bring Kang over, and he is a monster. This may change as monks of high river are coming out. For now I think this side of the equation is fine.

Mie (10 Thunder): Not so much fire but I love her and the archers for support as it lets me shoot into engagements and do some damage. For now I think this side of the equation is fine.

Tara (Reser): I have played her as resers a few times and she brings models important to her burying mechanic over which is important for her to function. Otherwise you can do the beast bomb or you runner her with offensive burying but comp wise there are major differences between her and resers. Her biggest issue is that she like buried models which means she either have to bring them to support her styles or she have to find a new way, though handing out slow everywhere is nice as well. I tend not to like giving my enemies fast, as that sounds like it is just waiting to bite me. I would love to see an expantion of both the fast/slow focus of her and the burying mechanic for her.

McCabe (10 Thunder): I do not play him nor do I have any real criticize of him other than in all the books I have not really found a reason why he is a Ten Thunder other than REASONS!! Which is not a good reason to me.

[Dirial]

I'm actually quite pleased with the current dual-faction Masters. Most play similar but different in their factions, just like you said.

 

Lynch and McCabe seem to be those that only pull things into 10T instead of both ways, but one can still play them differently.

[SpiralngCadavr]

From my experience--

 

Lucius: I think the biggest gap is him not drawing in much in the way of what he wantsfrom Neverborn, though I think changelings might, um... change that.

 

Mei Feng: I think she's light enough on her theme that she doesn't really need a ton past the Foundry models so has a ton to play with in both factions' pieces and upgrades. Not my favorite, but I think one of the better dual faction models in that regard.

 

Tara: A weird one- I think she runs as a stronger Resser due to Spare Parts, though likes Outcast models more. I'm not sure how I feel about that, since more often than not it means I just run her as a resser with the merc tax.

[D_acolyte]

I'm actually quite pleased with the current dual-faction Masters. Most play similar but different in their factions, just like you said.

 

Lynch and McCabe seem to be those that only pull things into 10T instead of both ways, but one can still play them differently.

 

I would like to see Lynch gain some more on the Neverborn side. Most Yan Lo crews I see are very similar.

 

From my experience--

 

Lucius: I think the biggest gap is him not drawing in much in the way of what he wantsfrom Neverborn, though I think changelings might, um... change that.

 

Mei Feng: I think she's light enough on her theme that she doesn't really need a ton past the Foundry models so has a ton to play with in both factions' pieces and upgrades. Not my favorite, but I think one of the better dual faction models in that regard.

 

Tara: A weird one- I think she runs as a stronger Resser due to Spare Parts, though likes Outcast models more. I'm not sure how I feel about that, since more often than not it means I just run her as a resser with the merc tax.

I hope so with Lucius, otherwise we might get look with Lucius some changelings and riflemen I have a huge firing line. I think Lucius has some real potential for both factions.

I actually think Tara is better as an outcast because of the I pay better upgrade. I think she will get better after what ever comes out next year. She is a little difficult to tackle to a degree partly because she brings in models and not a subtype that can be added to.

[SpiralngCadavr]

Other than preferred faction, I agree on Tara.

 

I Pay Better is the only reason I'll look at taking her as Outcast, and enough of an incentive to take her in them.

 

I'm very curious about how her Scion will come out post-beta, since it fluctuated between broken, something I'd never take, and something I liked but would consider niche.

 

I think the "no keyword" thing was Wyrd getting a little too clever, but with now 3 upgrades that deal with it and that I don't think she's very reliant on any of them specifically once you're more experienced means they've mostly solved that issue.

[D_acolyte]

I am taking her Resur because I see enough outcasts around where i am and i like the Resur freikcorps lady.

[Whut]

Instead of looking at it as "I'd rather run this master THIS way" Look at it from the perspective of the player. I'm in a competition, and I declared Outcasts as my faction for the event. Strategy and Schemes are flipped and I see Squatters, Corner Deployment, Frame for Murder. Corner Deployment makes me want something FAST. Frame for Murder makes me want something that's a big threat, and Squatters make me want a strong alpha strike to keep my enemy away, and Chatty.

I decide to run Tara. Do I care that Spare Parts make Resser Tara better than Outcast Tara?

**** NO I DON'T!

I have a beast bomb! And that beast bomb is going to deliver Killjoy and the nothing beast to you turn 1, and you're gonna be SCARED. And you're not going to want to approach, but you're going to have to and you're going to regret it. And when you think you have a plan B and go for a corner marker, Tara is going to use her second activation to walk there first and put up an aura that doesn't let you interact! Who cares if I can't summon!?

Sure, Guild WANTS McMourning to summon flesh constructs, because he's better in Ressers. But when you declare Arcanists and take a metric ton of Armor, he's going to make do with his choice.

And that's the bottom line. Dual faction masters will always be slightly better in one faction than another. But they give different options to the different factions. Stop thinking "Why would I run Tara as an Outcast?" Think "Would an Outcast player want to run Tara?" And that answer is yes!

[Wessex]

I'm surprised dual faction masters don't have one upgrade that is unique to each faction. So Brewmaster can hire Tri Chi as an upgrade in Ten Thunders, but can't bring anything Thundery with him to Gremlins? That's a slight aesthetic design oversight. That he pays for it when the other Ten Thunders guys have it built in to their cards is also a bit weird, but not the point here.

[SpiralngCadavr]

They already have all the faction-specific ones and as discussed above with Tara, two generic upgrades largely define her different play styles in factions (and I'd put the two others I play- Mei and Lucius- in the same camp).

 

While I think it could be fun for them to each have a unique one like McM, McM is actually a clear example of that not working very well, since he's regarded as so much better in one faction than another.

 

...Also, Brewmaster have the drunken river monks or w/e they're called from TT, though I do agree that it's a little odd that he doesn't get it for free, but I also think all of those should have been built in for free TT or no (except McM's which also allows him to function differently in each faction, despite not being a rousing success).

[Bengt]

While I think it could be fun for them to each have a unique one like McM, McM is actually a clear example of that not working very well, since he's regarded as so much better in one faction than another.

With a dataset of one, I don't think that one not being properly balanced invalidates the concept.

 

Fluff wise I think Tara feels shoehorned into being dual faction, I mean I can see where it's coming from with Karina being the Resurrectionist character in Dead of Winter (and I guess they came second in the campaign?). But her main thing is her relationship to Obliteration which to me puts her squarely into Outcasts.

 

Continuing on the fluff I also don't really get why the Ten Thunders have anything to do with Brewmaster.

[Dirial]

With a dataset of one, I don't think that one not being properly balanced invalidates the concept.

 

And I'm not even sure of that. Yes, Poison Bomb is not a valid playstyle in Guild, but Guild McMourning is not a bad master. He just plays totally different, and not as obviously/easily.

[Ratty]

I don't think it really matter in a competitive scene if a master is better in one faction or another. What matters far more is the Master brings something useful to the toolbox of the factions they are in. Lucius give Neverborn a shooting option for example. McMourning is a beatstick, which competes with Lady J, but he gives slightly different options, he's definitely more maneuverable than Lady J.

[Fog]

I'll be honest, I'll reach for McMourning over lady J every time. His extra scheme capabilities win out. I can always put together a team of murder hobos. Scheme manipulation is something I find more valuable

[SpectreEliteGaming]

I'd honestly like to scrap all this silly dual faction nonsense in favor of brand new unique masters.

Thoughts?

Actually, lets just get rid of factions all together and stop pretending that anybody who plays this game is (dedicated) faction inclusive.

[zFiend]

No more masters or models until the models that have rules are all available.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I am. So it's not pretending.

[Dirial]

Actually, lets just get rid of factions all together and stop pretending that anybody who plays this game is (dedicated) faction inclusive.

 

I am. So it's not pretending.

 

Me too.

[Whut]

I am. So it's not pretending.

Me too. I think "anyone can play anything" is stupid cause then you get a lot less variety in what players choose to play. "Oh, Reconnoiter? Are you playing Dreamer or Ramos?"

[zFiend]

Me too. I think "anyone can play anything" is stupid cause then you get a lot less variety in what players choose to play. "Oh, Reconnoiter? Are you playing Dreamer or Ramos?"

Um.. I don't quite understand this? Anyone can play anything means a lot of variety right? So how come it becomes less variety..?

Because Ramos and Dreamer are good at reconnoiter? Wouldn't it be even more obvious if you play with a limited pool and everyone knows that?

[Whut]

Um.. I don't quite understand this? Anyone can play anything means a lot of variety right? So how come it becomes less variety..?

Because Ramos and Dreamer are good at reconnoiter? Wouldn't it be even more obvious if you play with a limited pool and everyone knows that?

Sure, but from the players that don't play those factions you will see other choices come out. A Guild or Outcast player will have to choose something clever to pull out ahead than going the easy route.

If everyone can play everything, most people will just collect the "best" masters for every strategy instead of thinking within faction.

Restrictions promote clever thinking and workarounds.

No restrictions promote finding the objectively easiest answer to your problem and using that.

[Bengt]

Getting rid of factions wouldn't make people play fewer Masters I think. Rather it's other models that would show up everywhere, e.g. Rotten Belle, Nurse, Metal Gamin, Mechanical Rider, Howard, Austringer... 

[SpectreEliteGaming]

Me too. I think "anyone can play anything" is stupid cause then you get a lot less variety in what players choose to play. "Oh, Reconnoiter? Are you playing Dreamer or Ramos?"

Okay, so there are a few of you.

Well, actually - outside of tournaments - I do play whatever I want - I'm a master player not a faction player. Its pretty much as easy as "declaring your faction" when actually you were intending to play Colette the whole time - its just sneaky. Inside tournaments I just look at the primer and choose the best two per faction for the job and hope for the painting award.

I don't think you get anymore variety. There are always going to be one-two masters who see a lot of play and one-two who see next to none... generally speaking.

So at Adepticon I saw lots of dreamer and levy as far as the eye can see. Something tells me these players (myself included) weren't impacted by faction at all.

Almost, iirc most of the top players pretty much just played single master the whole time...

We'll see what the rest f con season looks like though.

[Adran]

Me too. I think "anyone can play anything" is stupid cause then you get a lot less variety in what players choose to play. "Oh, Reconnoiter? Are you playing Dreamer or Ramos?"

 

I generally disagree with this sort of thinking.

Some masters obvious game play works well with some stratergies, so if you have a basic understanding of Ramos Spider summoning, then you have a good start to doing Reconnotre, but that doesn't make him the "best" master at it if you know what you are doing with another master.

 

"Easiest to do well" is not the same as "best at". Many players fall into this Rabbit hole, and never seem to leave it. (And thats before you even look at the anti-listing if you "know" the opponent is going to field a Ramos Spider list because "it is the best" at Reconnoter)

[LunarSol]

I have moments of frustration with Dual Faction masters, particularly in Guild where it feels like a lot more give than take.  That said, I think its also important to not confuse inadequacies for unused design space.  Just look at the difference between Wave 1 and Wave 2 Mei Fang for an obvious example of a master who grew into their second (original?) faction.  

 

What I'm actually less fond of is some of the choices for dual faction non-master models.  Illuminated are probably the one that immediately springs to mind as a bit odd with most of the 10T masters (and powerful enough to likely show up with them regardless).  This is most prominent with 1st Edition 10T models I suppose.

 

I do support focusing on what a master brings to a faction before arguing what a faction brings to a master, but to that end I prefer to talk as if the game had 49 masters instead of 39.  It does raise some concerns though, when you consider things like Guild McMourning being worse than Resser McMourning, but overall a pretty good Guild Master.