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Age of Sigmar rules review


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Loveless, I get it in concept... up to the point that the core balancing mechanic consists of "make up your own... game?"

 

It's like, I could roll around some toy soldiers with someone else and say "pew pew! those guys die on a 4+-- they do!" and then he says "but I've got a tank! kablooie! your guys can't kill my tank unless you roll 2 6's!" and then that gets old when I can't kill his tank, so we agree I get two tanks!

 

Which is perfectly fine if you're 6 or something and want to pretend you're playing a game and have grasped that chance is fun instead of things automatically succeeding, but it's like GW is giving you the stats for you to play with their toy soldiers without just hitting them with each other, not like they're making a real game.

 

Am I misunderstanding something?

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It is not a competitive game.  This isn't something you use for tournaments, this isn't something you play to win.  This is something you play for cinematic value and stupid fun. 

This I don't get. To me a game is either a battle of wits between the players or trying to figure out the "puzzle" in co-op games. What you are describing sounds like mashing action figures together, something I don't see the entertainment value in at all.

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either a battle of wits between the players or trying to figure out the "puzzle" in co-op games

Yeah... that's kind of how I think of most even light strategy games. They're puzzles of sorts about what's the best way to reach the goal, whether you're against another player or the system itself.

 

Even playing RPGs doesn't generally support "bring something else in to rebalance the fun!" since that's usually a deus ex machina either way, and will probably feel like it.

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Loveless, I get it in concept... up to the point that the core balancing mechanic consists of "make up your own... game?"

 

That's pretty much it.  The "balance" is all left up to the players - I'm not really saying that's a good idea, but in a "trusted" environment you could have some stupid fun with it.

 

The basic statline-related rules don't see that terrible - there's still the back and forth of movement, charging, shooting, and what have you.  The problem is that, without adding to the rules, everything ends up being a central kill zone of melee (which I think has been said before).

 

It's the barest of core rules with individual rules that provide some flavor.  This isn't something that's going to "save" GW's Fantasy line (which has been an ever-dwindling percentage of their sales), but it's enough to let the designers have some fun with Fantasy models and enjoy some absurdity without any real constraints.  

 

If you want Rank and File fantasy, go play Kings of War or a previous edition of Fantasy.  If you want something competitive, go with Warmachine/Hordes or Malifaux.  If you want to hurl buckets of dice and goof around while drinking whisky, play Age of Sigmar. *shrugs*  It's a super casual game for when you want to play a miniatures game without spending any substantial time on a miniatures game.  It's an interesting move - and I'm still not sure if I like it - but it is what it is.

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But... I still don't see what makes it a game. I mean, 40k, with all its imbalances and whatnot is what I play if I want a light game if I'm not grabbing a board/video/card game. I don't know how it's more than a pastime, without any structure other than stats and "here's where you should do a silly dance".

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Pretty much. My personal opinion is that GW has aimed their new business model at a niche market of a niche market of a niche market. I mean they seem to be aiming at a target audience of those who:

 

A) want to collect miniatures

 

B) Want to play a "game" with those miniatures

 

C) Who don't care if they win or not

 

D) Who don't care if the game is balanced or not

 

E) Who Don't want to make up their own core rules

 

F) Who don't play pick up games as a significant percentage of their games

 

I mean, and no offense to those who like the system, but it seems to me that you could have just as much fun and have just as meaningful of an experience playing with Army Men with no set rules like many of us did when we were 7 years old, as play AoS for a fraction of the cost. I'm not seeing what GW is actually bringing to the table with this game other than their established Name recognition and current community of veterans, whom they seem to mostly have driven from the game. That isn't a denigration of AoS or playing with Army Men, Its just neither seem to be actual games. From my perspective it is very much like a game of Calvinball, to which, I'm not sure why the rules weren't one sentence: "Models work in anyway you and your opponent agree is fair".

 

I mean to me, if I want to have light fun rolling a lot of dice I'll play Zombie dice, or some other game that isn't anywhere near as expensive/complicated to set up or pack away, and doesn't require a massive amount of time negotiating with my opponent as to what is allowable or fair in the game.

 

Shame too, there were some great concepts in here, like models getting less powerful as they took dmg, but it looks like my Skaven are just going in the display case for the foreseeable future.

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Yeah, I actually thought it was pretty ballsy for GW to do the whole End Times thing and actually stick to their guns: I remember back in 3rd edition when 40k was actually dynamic, with stuff like Armageddon and Tycho and the Black Templars or Eye of Terror and Eldrad, and stuff like that as things ramped up on the galactic doomsday clock from 11:50 to 11:59, but then I went away for 3 editions or w/e and it was still not midnight nor had the clock moved in actual time.

 

So, narratively, kudos to GW for trying something. Mechanically, I agree with your analysis, Fetid, regarding questioning who'll actually play.

 

I was actually pretty excited about the End Times, and had hope for 40k seeing something similarly drastic, but then it turned out the End Times included the end of what I consider real rules...

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I think one of the key things that we're not privy to in this is GW's decision as a business to market this game.

 

From what I understand, and this is more or less third hand information, GW has written off the idea of retaining gamers. By that I mean building and, more importantly, supporting a community of dedicated players who invest in the hobby for the long haul. It's a lot of work and requires a level of interaction with said community that GW is not prepared to fulfill. Instead, the business plan going forward is to recruit, recruit, recruit.

 

It's a widely known fact that new gamers spend a lot of cash in the formative months/years of their hobby. Buying rules, miniatures, paints, hobby supplies, etc. They are also, in general, very enthusiastic  about everything. This is the cash cow that GW is looking to milk in the future. Recruit a large number of a new gamers every month with a flashy new game. One that is very easy to pick up and play and accessible to all (see free downloadable rules and warscrolls). One that anyone can play regardless of how many, or what type of, figures you have. One that is actively fun (your definition of fun and GW's may vary considerably).

 

The fact that most people are going to get bored by the game in a ferw months is not a concern as they'll soon be replaced by one of the millions of starry-eyed 12 year olds standing in line behind them.

 

In short, production line hobbyists.

 

In theory there is nothing inherently wrong with this idea (I don't agree with it, but that doesn't make it wrong). However it's becoming apparent that GW is not producing games for the likes of hoary old gamers like myself. That's probably a good thing for the company in the long run as I haven't spent any real money on GW products since the last Beastman army book.

 

I can see the thinking behind AoS and it's probably a good idea badly executed more than anything else and as I've said it's not a bad rule set, in can be quite good fun in fact. But, it's not a game designed to retain players or grow the hobby. It's not a game for me. It's a throwaway, get 'em in, get 'em playing, don't care what happens afterwards game.

 

I should probably reiterate that much of this post comes from conversations with very good freinds of mine. Many of whom worked a considerable length of time with GW and are still well connected but, may have coloured the information with their own bias. I'm also guilty of that particular sin.

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I'm completely on board with accessibility (my biggest reservation introducing Malifaux to people is that it has IMHO on of the steepest learning curves) both as a fiscal and design mindset.

 

What I don't understand is how that's at odds with trying to create a sustainable base/replay value. Seems like a good game should be prefaced by a flashy intro, not replaced by it.

 

But, interesting stuff either way.

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I think one of the key things that we're not privy to in this is GW's decision as a business to market this game.

 

From what I understand, and this is more or less third hand information, GW has written off the idea of retaining gamers. By that I mean building and, more importantly, supporting a community of dedicated players who invest in the hobby for the long haul. It's a lot of work and requires a level of interaction with said community that GW is not prepared to fulfill. Instead, the business plan going forward is to recruit, recruit, recruit.

 

I don't disagree, but I think they came to some very bad conclusions and apparently do not even know the history of what it was that put them on the map in the first place.  Forgetting where you come from can have some dire consequences.

 

I think this is especially true given how fast electronic entertainment has been advancing.  Remember, these guys built a company back in the time when the gameboy did not exist.  Alternate forms of entertainment are becoming much cheaper and prevalent.  Kids are getting incredibly powerful cell phones and tablets at younger and younger ages (especially the children whose parents can afford to purchase into an expensive hobby such as this).  Video games do not need a community, and many online games come with one built in.  Miniature wargames and the hobby DO require a community.  Not many people stick with the hobby if they do not know anyone else who participates in it.  Even if you mainly paint and model you need someone to wow with your projects other than your parents.

 

That community that GW no longer cares about is WHAT grew their games and customer base.  Other gamers are the ones that recruit the new blood.  Games Workshop is not prevalent enough to do that job themselves.  I think it is VERY telling that almost EVERY miniature game company I can think of has programs to help promote their game and build community (often using player volunteers).  These game companies seem to all realize that the community is important.  It gives your game and your playerbase a sort of growth momentum.  The more players you have the more people will see your game and become interested.  This is a sort of organic exponential growth.

 

This revolving door of new gamers that they quickly discard is not going to work unless they change their approach to reaching that audience.  In the past it was often veterans of their community that brought a lot of the new blood into the game.  You lose those guys then you have to do that yourself, and GW does very little advertising.  They are going to have to do a Warhammer cartoon or something if they want to grab the attention of young kids in a large enough quantity to easily discard them.

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I think its an activity that there is fun to be had with.  I actually think its extraordinarily difficult to make a game that isn't fun for a few plays.  The issue is lasting appeal and hobby games in particular desperately need it.  There's a lot of delayed gratification in the hobby.  When I think of the delay between buying something I'm really excited about and getting it on the table fully painted... well, I'm not sure AoS holds up long enough to finish the starter set.

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  • 3 weeks later...

As some one who's been playing WHFB since he was ten, now 23 some years this move by GW totally broke my heart. Seriously if you want an introduction game to suck people in REMAKE MORD, A game that quite frankly was LEAGUES better then just about anything out there. The thing that kills me, is this game is going to be consider a success. not because of game play but because the Models make REALLY good 40k minis. 

 

The only NET win off this is for all the other companies that our going to attract really pissed off old gamers.

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As some one who's been playing WHFB since he was ten, now 23 some years this move by GW totally broke my heart. Seriously if you want an introduction game to suck people in REMAKE MORD, A game that quite frankly was LEAGUES better then just about anything out there. The thing that kills me, is this game is going to be consider a success. not because of game play but because the Models make REALLY good 40k minis. 

 

The only NET win off this is for all the other companies that our going to attract really pissed off old gamers.

 

I think it will be an initial success.  Games Workshop games usually do very well in the sort initial sale period (other than DreadFleet), from there it depends on the quality of the game and how they support it.  From what I can tell Age of Sigmar still has all the rediculous cost issues that plague all GW games anymore.  I saw some of the second wave of stuff at my local game store the other day and the box of 20 khorne marauders/cultists cost around $58.  The miniatures looked nice for what they were, but that price is simply bonkers for what you are getting in regards to the game.  Sure, the fact that you can play with whatever can provide some cost relief, but the fact is that they are still selling stuff for insane prices.  I don't think that is going to generate a lot of long-term sales.

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Yeah... I just don't get the prices. I mean, $3/mini is a pretty nice deal actually, but bulk prices aren't going to alleviate the fact that you're spending $60 on the set of grunts (vs. $30 for 10, which feels like it would be a lot easier to move).

Also, I was decently impressed that GW was willing to put out all their rules for free, but then rather shocked at the sticker price for their first book in the new edition: it starts at $50 for an ebook, up to $150 for the limited edition. (That would be for 28 unit entries and some scenarios, plus obligatory story and hobby stuff.)

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The core rules and the rules for the units are free, but they are charging quite a premium on the rules for scenarios - which seem to be how they are structuring the game.  Those rules come in a $75 book, and they are already selling the 2nd $75 installment book.  This game looks extremely expensive to me - which is the main issue that I think made sales on 8th ed tank over the long term.

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My problem with it is that I like mass combat games. I am a historian, and I love researching famous battles and reading about how units were deployed and fought each other. Initially I was drawn to Warhammer because it played out like those battles, though it slowly changed over time. I liked seeing a battle line of enemy units advancing on my position, or trying to outflank my opponent as big groups of soldiers engaged each other and fought to the death.

 

I get that skirmish sized games are what's in now, but what about people like me who liked mass combat games? Saying "oh just go to another game system" is not solving the problem. I could go play Pike and Shotte, Johnny Reb, or Kings of War but that's not what I want to do which is play Warhammer Fantasy Battles.

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The core rules and the rules for the units are free, but they are charging quite a premium on the rules for scenarios - which seem to be how they are structuring the game.  Those rules come in a $75 book, and they are already selling the 2nd $75 installment book.  This game looks extremely expensive to me - which is the main issue that I think made sales on 8th ed tank over the long term.

This is what got me. As a long time WFB undead player. Free rules etc online are great; but if you're then charging £45 for a corebook that gives scenarios on how to play, (and balance pre determiend lists) it's not exactly cheap.

No point systems or Force Organisation Chart at all is a real downside imo.

I brought it up to my local GW on release and against last week. Initially they said "put down what you want and balance as you go" - which is riddled with problems. Now they're saying; "There's a force organisation of sorts in the new books.." He meant the formations/battalions.

But I'm not willing to drop £45 to get 1-2 premade lists for an army (even if one existed for undead) that may or may not work against my oponent who is putting down whatever he likes.

I bought the End Times books, two in Limited Edition, I feel rather burned by the whole £45/50 book every 3 months kinda deal - I have near £400 worth of books I used once, then they became obsolete within a few months..

That said, my regular group have been playing AoS regurlarly. A friend and I played about 2 games of 8th a year, about 5 months ago another friend started again, and we talked my brother into it. We got about 6 games of 8th in a month.

Now we get at least 1 night a week of AoS, but get about 3 games a night. I loved 8th, it had a lot of depth. But it was a mess rules wise, was a nightmare having to look up dozens of rules every game. There was a lot of opportunity to simply out rule your oppoents, especially if they were reletively new. And expecting new players to read 100+ pages of rules and FAQ's before even sitting down to a game is a huge barrier to entry.

AoS is a lot faster, meaning more games a night, and the rules are a lot more straight forward which is a big plus for my group as it has been easier to pick up and run with it.

I'm enjoying it, it's not WFB, but it is a fun game. It just needs tweaking. (How the hell is summoning actually supposed to work? There's at least 3 variations I've seen) and a FoC/points system of some kind

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They've been saying for years that their games aren't designed for tournaments or competition and that they're a model company first. And, well, this edition practically screams that. Whether that's a good or bad thing, I pass no judgment at this time.

Justin nailed it on the first page.

ITT: An overwhelming majority of people who are more focused on the game rather than the hobby. Granted its a review of the rules, but their is an important consideration missing. Whenever I hear complaints about GeeDubs its always "the game" and "the cost" (or "they are jerks" or whatever).

What people are forgetting is that they have consistently produced the most high quality line(s) of models over a considerable number of years (so long as you like big hands and big heads ;) ). Add to that - Forgeworld produces, easily, the highest quality miniatures of any company - mindblowingly good stuff. It's never the hobby aspects that get complained over - its always the game and the cost.

If you want a balanced tournament level game there are options out there (like Malifaux) but there's nothing quite like having two very well painted and modeled armies (armies!!!) facing off against eah other - its epic.

I like to powergame as much as the next jerk but that's why I played Magic on the side all those years ago. WFB was always first and foremost "hobby." When I went into a store years ago I didn't buy "the game" to play - I bought the models to make look friggin' sweet. I saw the displays and I was sold on the idea of the hobby alone.

The game is just something to do with all our pretty models afterwards - more to show them off than anything.

If I was a "game first" type person - I would have never even gotten into this hobby at all - so much easier to just play good ol' vidyas or boredgames.

AoS is an excuse to show off my minis - beyond that I am indifferent and have other options for tourney play. Also, I just got an email about the new (free) Chaos Dwarf list from Forgeworld. We survived the end of the world! And life is good.

This is a hobby people - not just a "game." Go ahead and make up your own damn rules for all we care so long as you throw them pretty models on the table. Whatever then, play some other company's game - but you know you want to play with these pretty pretty models. ;)

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I'd say they were a hobby company, rather than a game company, but hobby includes the game as well. That means you have to be stewards of your game, your creation. Whether they liked the beast that WHFB had become or not, it was a beast of their own creation, even if that creation was by failure to lead, letting the gamers push it in the direction they herded themselves toward. What they've done here is finally decide to take the reins of their creation and yank it back towards the direction they've decided it needs to be going. Unfortunately, to overuse the metaphor, they've pulled so hard on the reins they've broken the beasts neck.

 

Every bit of that, they're entitled to do, of course. They just chose the hardline scorched earth approach, rather than somehow working towards it over the course of the last few editions. Given what we hear about their financials, they probably felt they had to. What they didn't do, and it just goes to show the huge blind spot they've always had, is manage the "I'm taking my ball that you guys shouldn't be playing with any more, and I'm going home" feeling that it's entirely obvious and reasonable that their player base would have. All it would have taken is communication. Granted, lots and lots and lots of communication, but so much backlash could have been avoided.

 

Imagine if MtG suddenly said, here's our next wave of cards, with a purple deck, and an orange deck, but goodbye red and black, and here's the new rules that are completely different, and at best hint at making fun of all the other older cards you've spent time and money and energy collecting. But the cards are still beautiful to look at, and really we're just a card company, so you should all be happy still, right? Guys?.. We've including a zany kazoo in the box, it's fun!!

 

I hear the new stuff is selling well. I also hear the new stuff isn't moving at all. I hear people are having fun with this new, entirely separate game. I hear people would have been perfectly happy with another iteration of Xth Edition, where this time the focus is on [pick random part of game]. Who knows? This is either that scene where the WW1 grunt tightens the strap on his helmet before popping out of the foxhole and saving the day, or the scene where the captain loosens his bowtie, belts back one final shot of scotch and goes down with the ship. Will sure be interesting to watch which movie is being written, all I know is I'm not paying to see it, either way.

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Forgeworld produces, easily, the highest quality miniatures of any company

That's hilariously untrue. Their stuff is *on par* with the other high quality resin kits, but that's it. They're just good rather than painfully dull as GW proper has become (with "details" measured in centimeters)

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Woh woh woh... what are these high end resin kits "on par" that you speak of and where can I get them? ;) lol

The large kits and a lot of the very elaborate ones are beyond what most other companies produce. Haters? oO

I have so many minis from so many companies and don't see a par, at all. Maybe you could explain why you think they are? I see par as Basix or MicroArts bases - so go from there. All I see from forgeworld is "premium." The only company I have yet to handle their stuff that I'm interested in is Infamy. Other than that I know what the resin offered looks and feels like... and I just don't see that "par."

The only two companies that I have found that come close to FW is Mierce and Outlaw (Scibor is getting surprisingly good too, actually - dwarfs and ogres in particular are fantastic) - the resin these companies all use is much more consistent, smooth surfaces and deep details and there is less clean up (or even repair) then any other I've experienced but FW still pushes ahead - at least in my experience. Not sure where these magically amazing minis you guys speak of are but I have not had the same luck in finding them - a lot of resin kits come to you porous as hell, rough, and more bubbles than you can count.

Them renders can be awefully deceptive.

RobLo - Like I said in my original post - couldn't care less about the game from a hobbyist perspective, I'd say the game represents 10% of my hobby or less and 0% of my "giving a f*ck" -o-meter - so take what I said from that perspective. If its srs then give'r but if its a party game, I'll take it for what it is or just look at how pretty they are and take pictures.

I guess that's why I don't get all the hate (unless its directed towards their company attitude?) they are a hobby comapny and from a hobbyist perspective, all I can say is that its above average in cost but I'm happy overall. /shrug

If you don't like the game and choose to use their minis in your KoW games then I'd say that's win for them as well. ;)

It just strikes me as odd that other people went into the GeeDubs stores, looked at all of the set ups and displays... and wanted to play a game. Not following the train of thought - Kadeton has given me a pretty decent idea of gamer logic in a past post so I guess I kinda get it but I am forced to shrug again. /shrug

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I can tell you right now from the perspective of a shop owner - Age of Sigmar, despite the issues we've had from the tournament goers, has been a huge boon for sales as it's brought in a lot of new players to Fantasy. Lots of people starting new projects because the game buy-in is far smaller than it was before. Don't get me wrong - I would genuinely prefer 9th edition over it - but it definitely has revitalized the game. People are less intimidated by it.

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There are definitely a few hiccups in the rules, but it's mostly cinematic fun.  My friend and I rather enjoyed ourselves with it.  It's by no means a competitive experience and shouldn't be treated as such, but it's a good basic introduction to movement shenanigans, order of operations, engagement ranges, and unit interactions/synergy.  Add in some of the terrain and things get to be more silly fun.

 

It's a gateway drug to tabletop gaming - you can start it for relatively cheap and get some very pretty models.  You can pretty much buy a box or two and a blister and be good to go - probably still cheaper to go the Skirmish game route, but I can't complain about cost of entry for AoS since I don't need to purchase any rulebooks.

 

Hell, I've been in GW stores and the manager has only suggested the books to me in the event I want the background and art.  The gaming scenarios within are apparently not even a selling point (or maybe they're not a selling point to me and he knows that, since I bought End Times nonsense because I loved the setting/plot).

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