reduce yo 0 wounds and being killed

[AoS]

Is this the same timing? I'll give you an example:

Viktoria of blood hit izamu and reduce him at 0 wounds, (killing him?).

When victoria kills, she can do a healing flip, but when izamu is reduced to 0 wounds he make an attack and he is sacrificed.

I can't find a good definition of "being killed" in the rulebook.

If "reduce to 0 wounds" and "being killed" happens at the same time, victoria would use her hability first.

When is a model killed?

[egoon]

Reduced to 0 wounds happens first, and unless some ability (like Izamu's A Warriors Death, or Bete Noir's Death Rattles) explicitly states that something else happens, death happens straight after.

 

So in your case Izamu strikes back, and is Sacrificed (but not killed), so Vik does not heal.

 

Also note that abilities that kill instantly (like Executioner's Bloody Exhibition) do not reduce models to 0 wounds.

[Dirial]

Reduced to 0 wounds happens first, and unless some ability (like Izamu's A Warriors Death, or Bete Noir's Death Rattles) explicitly states that something else happens, death happens straight after.

 

So in your case Izamu strikes back, and is Sacrificed (but not killed), so Vik does not heal.

 

Also note that abilities that kill instantly (like Executioner's Bloody Exhibition) do not reduce models to 0 wounds.

 

Exactly.

[egoon]

So I probably should back my statements with rules references, and I found this in the FAQ:

 

Q: If a model with the Burning Condition and the Explosive Demise Ability is killed within range of Sonnia’s Violation of Magic and she chooses to summon a Witching Stalker, is the Witchling Stalker summoned before or after the Explosive Demise Ability occurs?

 

A: Violation of Magic occurs “when the target is reduced to 0 Wounds.” When a model is reduced to 0 Wounds it is “immediately killed” (Core Rulebook pg. 51) so Violation of Magic and Explosive Demise have the same timing point. In this instance, see the General Timing rules on pg. 46 of the Core Rulebook: 

 

So usually 'reduce to 0 wounds' and 'killed' happens at the same time. The effect in this scenario should be the same though.

[AoS]

Thanks for the faq answer, so victoria would heal?

[Dirial]

Thanks for the faq answer, so victoria would heal?

 

As said, no. Izamu is never killed.

[AoS]

But if both habilities have the same timing, for the general timing the acting model habilities would resolve it first. So victoria can activate her hability before izamu. So when victoria activate the hability she counts as she made the kill, she complete her hability and then izamu activate his hability and then is when victoria does not count as having the kill, but not before.

Thats my point.

[Dirial]

Not a bad point. I think it resolves like this:

 

The timing point of Viktorias' ability and Izamu's is in fact the same, but only if they all resolved at all. Viktoria's ability does trigger on Killed which happens at the same time if it happens at all. However, Izamu's ability trigger on being reduced to 0 Wounds and makes pretty clear that Izamu is not killed. Thus, that killed state never comes up, so Viktoria's ability doesn't come into play in the first place, never mind the timing.

 

It's pretty hard to argue though, because the wording is somewhat murky and the FAQ doesn't really help to solve this particular issue. But this is how I'd play it, and it's what I'd expect an FAQ to rule if it reaches that point.

[AoS]

Izamu is not killed after he activates the hability but not before, and before izamu can sacrifice herself viky is resolving her hability.

Timing, to me, would be:

1 viki "kills" izamu

2 viky resolve her hability

3 izamu resolve the hability, and after that is when he is not being killed by viky, but not before.

[katadder]

would have to disagree, you cannot be killed and sacrificed. so the viks cannot trigger off of Izamus ability as his sacrificed overrides being killed.

[Dirial]

Izamu is not killed after he activates the hability but not before, and before izamu can sacrifice herself viky is resolving her hability.

Timing, to me, would be:

1 viki "kills" izamu

2 viky resolve her hability

3 izamu resolve the hability, and after that is when he is not being killed by viky, but not before.

 

By your logic, the ability wouldn't do much. Him being killed is not taken back. It's like this:

 

Reduced to 0 Wds -> check if anything triggers of that -> if not, killed -> see if anything triggers of that -> if not, remove the model

[AoS]

Reduces to 0 wd have the same timing that being killed, i understand that from the faq cuestión.

So if both habilities have the same timing izamu cannot being sacrificed before so in that moment he is just killed, (reduced to 0 wd), and for the general timing viky activate the hability first.

Dont see the problems in a model which sacrifice herself once he is being killed

[Dirial]

Reduces to 0 wd have the same timing that being killed, i understand that from the faq cuestión.

So if both habilities have the same timing izamu cannot being sacrificed before so in that moment he is just killed, (reduced to 0 wd), and for the general timing viky activate the hability first.

Dont see the problems in a model which sacrifice herself once he is being killed

 

First off, the FAQ questions answer that specific instance. The FAQ makes clear not to generalize the answers.

 

Secondly, they have the same timing if the timing plays a role. They still trigger of different things, one of which doesn't happen (Izamu being killed). Killed is not the same thing as being reduced to 0 Wds, it just happens when nothing else happens. In this case, Izamu makes a strike when reduced to 0 Wds and then sacrifices. He never comes to the point of being killed, thus Viktoria's ability doesn't come into play.

[egoon]

Sorry for confusing the issue with a mostly unrelated FAQ entry.

 

As stated in the rules (Small rulebook, page 60, first §), a sacrificed model does not count as being killed. So in this case Izamu is never killed. And not triggering Viktorias healing.

 

Had the ability not stated that Izamu would be sacrificed, the timing would be the same for the abilities, and Viktoria as the acting model would heal first.

[AoS]

When a modelo is reduces to 0 wounds it is killed, (not in the other case)

I like the way that you want to play it, but I'm not sure without a clarificación.

[AoS]

If a model which is sacrificed do not count as killed, it means that the model will be removed from play as sacrificated, but does not mean that viky reduce him to 0 wounds, (killed him), before he is sacrificed, means that once he is sacrificed he is not count as killed by the viky. But before he is sacrificed viky counted as she kill him.

[Fetid Strumpet]

You are incorrect. A model cannot count as having been killed and sacrificed at the same time. If Victoria killed him he would drop a corpse market, as models killed with the appropriate traits do so. Sacrificed models do not. You can't have it both ways. A model is either killed or sacrificed, there is no nebulous middle ground where one thing happens and then another in this particular instance.

[zFiend]

You are incorrect. A model cannot count as having been killed and sacrificed at the same time. If Victoria killed him he would drop a corpse market, as models killed with the appropriate traits do so. Sacrificed models do not. You can't have it both ways. A model is either killed or sacrificed, there is no nebulous middle ground where one thing happens and then another in this particular instance.

This.

[AoS]

The thing is that you can't sacrifice Izamu before he is reduces to 0 wounds, (killed).

A model sacrificed does not count as killed, but that do not means that you cannot sacrificed a killed model, and once you sacrifice him, he is not counting as killed.

So in this point viky could kill izamu, activate the hability and then izamu activate his hability and sacrifice himself. So once izamu activates his hability he do not count as killed, but he can be killed before that.

[AoS]

Maybe I'm wrong, but if I follow the faq both habilities have the same timing. And then I look the general timing and viky have to resolve her hability first.

And I don't found anything to contradict this.

Only thing is that you can't sacrifice a killed model, but I don'found something like that in the rulebook. Just : "A model sacrificed do not count as killed", and I tried to explain that before.

[Dirial]

A killed model is removed from play. Also, I still don't get when you see him get killed.

 

But I have explained my view at length, so unless you bring a new argument to the table, I stand by my interpretation.

[Fetid Strumpet]

AoS, If your interpretation is correct, which it isn't, then every effect in the game which would fire on being killed because of being reduced to 0 wounds could be activated before any other rules interactions would stop it.

Leveticus would drop a corpse everytime he cycled and enemies could claim full points for assassinate because according to your argument once reduced to 0 wounds, even if something later took it away, there is still a state of killed to squeek effects by. So when leveticus is reduced to 0 wounds he counts as killed, so at that instantl all effects which fire off being killed, Vicks healing, dropping a corpse marker, gaining vp for having killed a model, etc, all get to go off before leveticus ability which says when this model is reduced to 0 wounds it is not killed.

Ressers will be happy because it means they are going to get a corpse everytime izamu "dies" even though he is sacrificed, and bête will get one every time she cycles.

I'm sorry but your interpretation is just plain incorrect.

[AoS]

Izamu do not count as killed because he is sacrificed before being remove. But he is killed before he use his hability

Same reasoning about leve.

[Myyrä]

There is a reason why there isn't a definitive guide to all timings as a part of the FAQ, and that reason is that very many abilities would stop functioning or start functioning very weirdly if timings worked absolutely consistently. Whether you like it or not (I sure don't), sometimes abilities that are resolved later prevent some abilities that would be resolved earlier from working. Deal with it.

[zFiend]

AoS, If your interpretation is correct, which it isn't, then every effect in the game which would fire on being killed because of being reduced to 0 wounds could be activated before any other rules interactions would stop it.

Leveticus would drop a corpse everytime he cycled and enemies could claim full points for assassinate because according to your argument once reduced to 0 wounds, even if something later took it away, there is still a state of killed to squeek effects by. So when leveticus is reduced to 0 wounds he counts as killed, so at that instantl all effects which fire off being killed, Vicks healing, dropping a corpse marker, gaining vp for having killed a model, etc, all get to go off before leveticus ability which says when this model is reduced to 0 wounds it is not killed.

Ressers will be happy because it means they are going to get a corpse everytime izamu "dies" even though he is sacrificed, and bête will get one every time she cycles.

I'm sorry but your interpretation is just plain incorrect.

Oh! Well hold on.. This is a pretty good price to give the Vikkies some healing. For the greater good and all that.

[AoS]

I don't see the problem, as I explained, at resolve as I did, but the other option is don't follow the rule book and don't resolve the viky's hability, to avoid the conflicto with the next hability ... Think that would need a faq answer