All the things you want to soapbox and/or have debate about in Malifaux

[Nathan Caroland]

 

The representation divide can't be fixed by more female masters. Don't get me wrong: Malifaux has a pretty even divide and that's a good thing. The issue arises when you look at the world of Malifaux and the 80 average men for every 20 average women. We see more men doing things than women, and when we see a woman on the tabletop, we know that she is exceptional: a master, henchman, enforcer. If the only women we see are women in exceptional positions, then that means that most women simply aren't exceptional enough. Women can come to Malifaux, but only if they can play like one of the boys.

 

 

This is no means a 'jab' but please, show me what war, battle, skirmish or even riot in the street can you show me where it isn't usually more male than female to the ratio mix?

 

I'm not going to sit here and go 'this is fantasy, get over it' as that's a chicken shit way to go to explain everything, but honestly, male to female in the general violence level, when do you see more women than men, or even a 50/50 ratio where it doesn't start out on some spring break Florida beach where the chaos gets out of hand?

 

Most times, males are the antagonists and are the first to get into confrontations. That's not to say that there aren't women out there that are just the same, or can't or won't put a hurting to anyone that gets in their way, but in general, it's males that do so. Just looking at the prison ratios alone (not taking into account WHAT put them in there) but in general it's one out of eighteen males and one out of eighty-nine females that end up in prison. Now, that's not a definitive by any means, but it is something as a basis to consider.

 

Now I'm not going to go into some crap about women are natural caregivers and don't seek outright violence in general, but they certainly aren't amazonian man haters looking to castrate the whole of mankind and lockup the ones that catch their eye as well. At least, not in Malifaux. 

[Ferossa]

What war, battle, skirmish or even riot in the street can you show me where it isn't usually more male than female to the ratio mix?

 

I'm not going to sit here and go 'this is fantasy, get over it' as that's a chicken shit way to go to explain everything, but honestly, male to female in the general violence level, when do you see more women than men, or even a 50/50 ratio where it doesn't start out on some spring break Florida beach where the chaos gets out of hand?

 

Most times, males are the antagonists and are the first to get into confrontations. That's not to say that there aren't women out there that are just the same, or can't or won't put a hurting to anyone that gets in their way, but in general, it's males that do so. Just looking at the prison ratios alone (not taking into account WHAT put them in there) but in general it's one out of eighteen males and one out of eighty-nine females that end up in prison. Now, that's not a definitive by any means, but it is something as a basis to consider.

 

Now I'm not going to go into some crap about women are natural caregivers and don't seek outright violence in general, but they certainly aren't amazonian man haters looking to castrate the whole of mankind and lockup the ones that catch their eye as well. At least, not in Malifaux. 

 

Well, yeah, but it's a fantasy game. It's power fantasies for everyone. It's not supposed to be realistic.

 

I'm trying to be generous in reading this, but you don't get to make a game about zombies and wizards and gremlins and then say that you have fewer women because that's realistic for the setting. Wyrd made the setting. Wyrd sets the politics. Malifaux did not spring fully-formed into the world and it's disingenuous to pretend it did.

 

The current scholarship on women at war is right here and it's a great read. That's all I'll say about the historical argument.

[Math Mathonwy]

I still fail to see the relation between two female torakages instead of one, and the fact that the person you face is a sexist idiot, who talks and acts in a horrible manner. There is a big barrier between real and the game.

It's all a part of a bigger pattern. If the game doesn't cater to women in the fiction and the gaming material, then it will see fewer women players. I don't think that this is a big logical leap to take, though naturally it's very hard to conclusively prove or disprove.

But the great thing here is that it really wouldn't harm anyone! Or at least I have a really hard time imagining someone's enjoyment of the game getting crucially diminished if Wyrd included those two female Torakages every once in a while in their mook boxes.

The reason why I'm rising points, is that I'm afraid of movements when they become sorta religious and close-minded. And, for example, derail a dozen different totally unrelated threads to impose a message like a homily (before even questioning whether that idea is "right" or "wrong").

I don't feel religious about this at all. I have been thinking about this stuff quite a bit and have come to the conclusions that I have through thought, not sermon.

As for derailing threads - it always takes two to tango. The original post critiquing the gender balance of the starter was one post and quite topical. Then it spiraled a bit unfortunately indeed but that wasn't the sole responsibility of the socially conscious faction. So maybe it's the status quo curmudgeons that are the religious ones?

As an aside, most of these conversations, from my point of view, seem to go somewhat like this:

A: "What's wrong with the status quo?"

B: "This, this, and that. And fixing it isn't hard nor likely to impact on your enjoyment."

A: "But what's wrong with the status quo?"

B: "Also this and this besides the stuff that I already listed."

C: "Shutuuuupp B!!1eleven!"

D: "Hello, I'm a mod, let's lock this thread since it got heated."

And I'm not criticizing the act of locking threads. I understand why it is done. But most of the heat seems to come from the drive-bys.

while Lizzy Lovelace was targeted and destroyed before even knowing a toe of her appearance and personality (and her only "mistake" was also unintended, rather virtuous!)

I was probably the loudest voice in not liking the name. I found it simply inappropriate for minis games. Similar to how I would find Ösama Bin Ladle inappropriate. The fact that it was accidental doesn't really enter into it.

But what if her new name is better? Was Lizzy Lovelace really the epitome of a cool name that can't be topped? Because I have full confidence in Justin and the rest of the Wyrd team to come up with a brilliant name for her. So there really wasn't a downside from my point of view in hoping that the name got changed.

That said, I'm far more devastated by the band than if the name had stayed. I just find the band utterly and completely silly.

[PolishSausage]

Honestly I think wyrd is NOT sexist by making majority of models male, can you imagine if the ratio was opposite? The feminist outcry about this game being all about boobs and legs would shatter the ?kaelthara? again,,,,

[Fetid Strumpet]

Her new name is Anna Lovelace. I liked Lizzy better.

[Nathan Caroland]

It didn't, but there are real world realities that factor into it consciously or not. Hell, we reference a lot of history, lore and pop culture as everyone well knows. As I created a large portion of Malifaux from the beginning, and accepted and canonized input as it has grown (because lets be honest, if I don't like it, or it doesn't sit well with me, it doesn't make it to print), I will be the first one to say 'yeah, I don't see women as antagonistic or combative as men'. But I also don't see them weak, and that is one of the reasons why you see some rather powerful ladies as well. 

 

It also goes along the lines of what I tell my developers and writers - no ultra violence (the difference from a Jason movie vs ... say Hostel for instance), avoid outright sexual violence, and religion, while it can be alluded to, is not a major factor and never will be within Malifaux. It polarizes people in the extremes one way or another. You can ask any one of the fellas that has been working for me for a while how many stories or ideas that I've tossed out because it doesn't strike the right tone. At the end of the day, it is a game, and one that I am very proud to be part of, but I do feel that sometimes those 'real world issues' sometimes need to be checked at the door and a good time had by all.

 

That doesn't mean there aren't ass-hats out there. Plenty of them. Let them know, and walk the other way, no one should have to put up with something that is distasteful or hateful. Hell, ask the folks how many customers I've 'fired' over the last few years because of their actions or comments - I may very much want to sell and have folks enjoy this game - but I by no means need to take shit for doing so along the way.

[Ferossa]

But by deciding to include misogyny and oppressive patriarchy, you're including them as forces in the setting. With the sexualised female boxes (Oiran, Ronin) Wyrd makes a strong point that women are only allowed in Malifaux if they are sexually useful. That's a gross point, and rather than being offended that people are pointing out the subtext of their narrative, Wyrd should work to bring the subtext into alignment with their stated goals. Because right now, multiple women and several men have told them that they are unhappy with the status quo because it reflects real-life inequalities that we need to face every day, and we come to Malifaux for a power fantasy that lets us face them on an even footing.

 

In the previous thread, you had people arguing that the lack of female models is good because it keeps women out of the hobby. That is the side you cater to when you defend your female model deficit. I've posted examples in this thread and others of the sexism and danger I face when I try to participate in the hobby due to the overwhelming misogyny of some of the participants.

 

"If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality." - Desmond Tutu

[Gremlin guy]

Point 1. Gremlins are the good faction.

Point 2. I'd love to see a Gremlin model named Guy Faux. It's a play on Gremlin intelligence (with them thinking its pronounced Fawkes or fox) on history, and on my forum name. That model l should probably be a male, due to the name and reference, but I wouldn't be offended if it were female, no matter the body type.

[bertmac]

It's all a part of a bigger pattern. If the game doesn't cater to women in the fiction and the gaming material, then it will see fewer women players. I don't think that this is a big logical leap to take, though naturally it's very hard to conclusively prove or disprove.But the great thing here is that it really wouldn't harm anyone! Or at least I have a really hard time imagining someone's enjoyment of the game getting crucially diminished if Wyrd included those two female Torakages every once in a while in their mook boxes.I don't feel religious about this at all. I have been thinking about this stuff quite a bit and have come to the conclusions that I have through thought, not sermon.As for derailing threads - it always takes two to tango. The original post critiquing the gender balance of the starter was one post and quite topical. Then it spiraled a bit unfortunately indeed but that wasn't the sole responsibility of the socially conscious faction. So maybe it's the status quo curmudgeons that are the religious ones? ;)As an aside, most of these conversations, from my point of view, seem to go somewhat like this:A: "What's wrong with the status quo?"B: "This, this, and that. And fixing it isn't hard nor likely to impact on your enjoyment."A: "But what's wrong with the status quo?"B: "Also this and this besides the stuff that I already listed."C: "Shutuuuupp B!!1eleven!"D: "Hello, I'm a mod, let's lock this thread since it got heated

Wow math! Way to completely misrepresent the truth. There were a lot of counter points to the arguments against your stand point the fact that you've completely ignored them is really sad as im a big fan of an open debate.

As nathan has said the representation ratio male/female is fairly realistic bearing in mind as much as it's a fantasy game it's still based on a place being invaded by people from earth.

Body types was again touched upon with ronda rousey the female ufc champ being highlighted! For me even watching the tennis at the moment serena williams has a bit of beef on her most others share a very similar body shape slim athletic sometimes very tall like sharapova. Going back steffi graf, martina navratilova, martina hingis, anna kournikova etc were not carrying any excess baggage.

I'm not particularly worried about what sex my models are or if they are particularly buxom but i think the ratio is bang on and i like the game as it is and i have seen no convincing arguments why it needs to change!

[zFiend]

What do I want to soapbox. This one is fairly simple. 

 

Malifaux needs more tophats! All kinds of top hats, on everything! Also moustache. Where is the moustache!? You can put them on men, women, pigs, dogs, teddy bears, babies, I don't care. If it is a western game, it needs moustaches. 

[Shadowfane]

What do I want to soapbox. This one is fairly simple. 

 

Malifaux needs more tophats! All kinds of top hats, on everything! Also moustache. Where is the moustache!? You can put them on men, women, pigs, dogs, teddy bears, babies, I don't care. If it is a western game, it needs moustaches. 

 

The Captain NEEDS a tophat - you know, for that discerning English gentleman explorer around town look.

[r4st4f4n]

 

In the previous thread, you had people arguing that the lack of female models is good because it keeps women out of the hobby.

This I don't remember, maybe I missed it. There was SpectreElite pointing out that girls are less than boys in wargaming (implicit: because most girls snub this hobby more than other nerd activities), and he said that a growing physical presence from them would naturally smooth gender related questions in wargaming, without the need of a preventive surgical operation.

But by deciding to include misogyny and oppressive patriarchy, you're including them as forces in the setting. With the sexualised female boxes (Oiran, Ronin) Wyrd makes a strong point that women are only allowed in Malifaux if they are sexually useful. That's a gross point, and rather than being offended that people are pointing out the subtext of their narrative, Wyrd should work to bring the subtext into alignment with their stated goals. Because right now, multiple women and several men have told them that they are unhappy with the status quo because it reflects real-life inequalities that we need to face every day, and we come to Malifaux for a power fantasy that lets us face them on an even footing.

And since a couple of weeks, Hired Swords Box is Sold Out again for the second(third?) time...

Also, my previous answer about the background was totally ignored because Nathan posted at the same time ç_ç

[Nathan Caroland]

Because right now, multiple women and several men have told them that they are unhappy with the status quo because it reflects real-life inequalities that we need to face every day, and we come to Malifaux for a power fantasy that lets us face them on an even footing.

 

A very vocal minority though to be honest. Which is usually the case in most anything. Not dismissing this in the least, but it is those that feel the most passionate about something that are usually the ones that are heard - everyone else is just content to move along or don't care enough one way or another as it is a miniatures game and folks usually like to check out of reality vs. bringing it to them in everything that they do. 

 

I'm not saying you are right or wrong, but just becomes folks make a statement on the forums, does not mean that it will completely turn everything on a dime. Changes do happen, but in this industry, it might be a year or more before you actually see it due to the fact that planning and production takes that long. 

 

Point in fact - there was a huge amount of upset over the Viktoria's box set. Folks went on and on about it, hollered for days, mass suicide was planned. And what do I sell out of all the time - loads and loads of Viktoria's. What do I see a lot of female painters bring by the booth to share? Viktoria's (and a lot of gremlins actually, but that's another thought for another day). 

 

The original Taelor, there was a ruckus about her. Had someone holler and tell us we were abusing women and didn't know a thing about them ... when in fact, and here I laugh quite a bit, my wife actually talked to the artist and designed her herself, underboob and all. And yes, it will probably be said that they were sold mostly to males who are closeted in the basement and never have seen a female, but those too sold very well. 

 

I had folks clambering all day for a naked female, need more beeeewbs. So I did the eye-roll and had a bit of fun with it, and gave them the original Zoraida. Yup, you asked for it, there you go horn dogs, enjoy. 

 

Our characters frequently kill or maim others and go about doing so on a hideous spree of violence that is played out on the table but I have had real life 'prayer circles' done in our parking lot to save us (shit you not!), but you don't see me going now now, I understand your upset, so lemme put everyone riding around on a unicorn with a rainbow sporting out its arse and fighting with nerf swords and good intentions. I may make that game for another day and call it 'Good Intentions', but no, not in Malifaux.

 

But just because some folks have made a point of telling us their thoughts on a subject doesn't mean that it's going to become gospel either. There are more men than women in Malifaux, and unless I start putting out nothing but female models (for which we will get yelled at because they are either not diverse enough or over/under sexualized, or crap, we'll swing the other way and didn't make them male), that isn't likely to change. 

[spectrehorseman]

The Powers that Control this Country have done an excellent job of dividing us and making us infight along the usual lines.

 

Black vs White

Christian vs Gays

Man vs Woman.

 

It's sickening to see that this Agenda has perpetrated one of the small corners of the Internet I call home.  Where is the outrage for the Black members of Malifaux?  What about the Vertically Challenged? Surely there are midgets running around Malifaux but they are VASTLY UNDERREPRESENTED. Nathan! You better do something about that , OR ELSE!

 

See how silly this sounds.  It's no more silly than arguing the Male vs Female bit that is going around.  Nathan made several points as to why the ratio is as it is and those were all valid points.  I'm still waiting for valid points to the contrary.

 

Long story short, the NWO really knows how to pull the strings on the puppets of the population, don't they?

[r4st4f4n]

I had folks clambering all day for a naked female, need more beeeewbs. So I did the eye-roll and had a bit of fun with it, and gave them the original Zoraida. Yup, you asked for it, there you go horn dogs, enjoy.

Love it. Just love it. XD

[Shadowfane]

The Powers that Control this Country have done an excellent job of dividing us and making us infight along the usual lines.

 

Black vs White

Christian vs Gays

Man vs Woman.

 

It's sickening to see that this Agenda has perpetrated one of the small corners of the Internet I call home.  Where is the outrage for the Black members of Malifaux?  What about the Vertically Challenged? Surely there are midgets running around Malifaux but they are VASTLY UNDERREPRESENTED. Nathan! You better do something about that , OR ELSE!

 

See how silly this sounds.  It's no more silly than arguing the Male vs Female bit that is going around.  Nathan made several points as to why the ratio is as it is and those were all valid points.  I'm still waiting for valid points to the contrary.

 

Long story short, the NWO really knows how to pull the strings on the puppets of the population, don't they?

 

 

Personally, I'm fuming about the clear and blatant anti-ginger bias that threads its way through Malifaux... are you trying to tell me the ten thunders have NO redheads in their ranks? no zombies with remnants of lank, ginger hair?

Gingerism!

Blatant Gingerism!

[paradoxstorm]

But by deciding to include misogyny and oppressive patriarchy, you're including them as forces in the setting. With the sexualised female boxes (Oiran, Ronin) Wyrd makes a strong point that women are only allowed in Malifaux if they are sexually useful. 

 

You are going to have to be more specific--I'm not really seeing misogyny or an oppressive patriarchy in Malifax.  

 

I concede that many men in the world are assholes towards women and the abuse of women is unconscionable, but whatever may be wrong with the treatment of women in Malifaux I just don't see what you see.  

 

The Oiran, for example, are less sexualized than many female college students.  And while I can't speak for all men a woman who can, and appears to be planning to, kill me by beating me to death with a stick isn't even a little bit sexy--she's just freakin' scary.

 

The Ronin are more provocative, but as killers with swords I still don't get the message that these are sexually available women.

 

December Acolytes, Silent Ones, and others are fully covered and don't send a sexualized message at all.  

 

And you'll have to point out the patriarchy because I am not seeing it.  Who is Mei Feng's patriarch?  Zordia's?

[rancor709]

I'll soap box and Say I greatly appreciate wyrds direction, art and social conscious.  Malifaux isn't nor was it ever intended to be the great white knight of Womans rights in gaming. Wyrd has a large female following and I think its wonderful although my wife still refuses to play. Not for because of models or stereotypes or issues at the shop, but this hobby doesn't interest her in the slightest and guess what thats okay. Cross stitching her main hobby doesn't interest me at all either but we both support each other and support each others hobbies.

 

The game world is deeply routed in the history of the american manifest destiny. The drive west which did include a fair amount of women, but far more men as it was an unsettled wilderness and social convention of the time period meant it was more difficult not impossible for woman to have full time work. This is obvious as both men and woman are represented in both the guild and the M&SU the two largest employers in malifaux that we know about to this point. There are woman in positions of authority and woman that are underlings and there are summon woman that are just nameless minions. So I think the representation while not perfect nothing is, is even greater than the historical records would indicate. 

 

The best stories draw from this historical basis it helps make this "fantasy world" feel like it fits feel like it would have consistency with the world and history that we know if something as fantastic as soulstones and magic existed in this world and that a magic city of forbidden knowledge was discovered on our earthly timeline. 

 

My own personal preference is to let the designers of the game pick the art and gender identities of the models that fits those characters the best. If this model would fit best as a beautiful woman, have the artist create a beautiful woman. If this model would be best represented as ordinary men and women than have them designed as regular looking men and women. IF this should be an awesome turtle monster! Then dang it draw a turtle monster.

 

I want the artists and designers to have the freedom they need to create their vision of their world. And if I like what I see I will give the company cash, if I don't I don't buy it. Economics is simple and the dollar is your most powerful voting tool. Want more female models, buy more female models. 

[paradoxstorm]

 

The original Taelor, there was a ruckus about her. Had someone holler and tell us we were abusing women and didn't know a thing about them ... when in fact, and here I laugh quite a bit, my wife actually talked to the artist and designed her herself, underboob and all. And yes, it will probably be said that they were sold mostly to males who are closeted in the basement and never have seen a female, but those too sold very well. 

 

 

How interesting--Taelor is the only model I am looking forward to replacing in plastic--I actually find the underboob thing offensive--and she was designed by a woman.  Who knew.

 

I guess I shouldn't be surprised--I spent a lot of time in Second Life a few years ago and the way actual women choose to dress their avatars in SL is positively scandalous compared to female depictions in Malifaux

[Ferossa]

Point 1. Gremlins are the good faction.

Point 2. I'd love to see a Gremlin model named Guy Faux. It's a play on Gremlin intelligence (with them thinking its pronounced Fawkes or fox) on history, and on my forum name. That model l should probably be a male, due to the name and reference, but I wouldn't be offended if it were female, no matter the body type.

 

A henchman/enforcer that's a chaotic board presence and blows up scheme markers?

 

I want this.

[Fetid Strumpet]

The ronin always remind me of the members of my sister's roller derby team.

[Ferossa]

Point in fact - there was a huge amount of upset over the Viktoria's box set. Folks went on and on about it, hollered for days, mass suicide was planned. And what do I sell out of all the time - loads and loads of Viktoria's. What do I see a lot of female painters bring by the booth to share? Viktoria's (and a lot of gremlins actually, but that's another thought for another day). 

 

I wanted to address this point specifically, because starting with Barbie girls are taught to expect sexualisation. Read this Reddit thread about girls noticing when men first looked at them sexually. Of course the Victorias box sold out, because my expectations for miniatures games and decency from men is so very low, that I will buy a box of all-female sexualised minis, because if nothing else, I am sending the message that people will buy all-female boxes.

 

Was I sending the wrong message in buying the Victorias?

 

(And I know some of you are parents. Assuming you want your children to share your hobby, do you want your daughters to grow up with experiences like mine? Do you want your sons to think treating women that way is acceptable? Miniatures games don't need to be insular—that's the attitude killing AAA gaming. Malifaux has a huge amount of external appeal and I don't understand the desire to compete in a saturated market instead of targeting enthusiastic, undersaturated demographics who have spent years vocalising a desire to spend money on games that represent them. Wargaming is a fulfilling, enriching hobby that can be so much broader than it is. There are people who want to wargame, but haven't started because they haven't found a system or setting that represents them.

 

Wyrd is already halfway there. I would love to see them go the whole way and show what a deep, representative experience wargaming can be for everybody.)

[SpectreEliteGaming]

*peeks in*

Ooo what's going on in this thread? >8)

All I ask is that this game doesn't lose its edge because it wants to adhere to those who are easily offended. So far, I've really only seen one individual on the forums who takes ethical topics to the extreme - that tells me most people are either indifferent or don't have a problem with the game.

I believe this edge is what makes people interested in Malifaux to begin with. When those 40k or warmahorde players see you playing with killer kids, sexy dead hookers, and teddy bear monsters - you grab that attention. Then, they find their geek niche when exploring crew options. Then, you've got those players.

Keep the edge sharp. Otherwise, expect a whole lot of conversions and proxies.

That's all I have to say...

... for now.

*ready to pounce*

EDIT: Oh hey, this is the thread where I can bitch and whine about the new Jack Daw set with impunity, right? >8)

[SpectreEliteGaming]

Also, we need more bewwwwwwwbs...

... and less pasties.

[DeleteAccount]

Malifaux has a huge amount of external appeal and I don't understand the desire to compete in a saturated market instead of targeting enthusiastic, undersaturated demographics who have spent years vocalising a desire to spend money on games that represent them. Wargaming is a fulfilling, enriching hobby that can be so much broader than it is. There are people who want to wargame, but haven't started because they haven't found a system or setting that represents them.

 

Wyrd is already halfway there. I would love to see them go the whole way and show what a deep, representative experience wargaming can be for everybody.)

God knows I have no interest whatsoever in going into the gender debate, but I do find this comment interesting. When has there ever been a demographic vocalizing their desire to play wargames and who also happen to be female? I mean, we are already taking about a hobby that frankly has a miniscule scope of action and almost all women I´ve seen playing wargames it´s because they are "that guy´s girlfriend" and even then they are mostly interested in the painting aspect, not so much the play aspect. Whenever this seems to come up the few times it´s popped up it´s more about being outright not interested, finding it needlessly complicated and so on, haven´t heard it being about the male centric community. Obviously my island is a very small island, so not saying I´m any holder of truth, but at the end of the day Wyrd is a business, so I´d say that if you are so sure this community exists and can interact with it, then get some signatures, that will get the engines going a lot more than having dialectic duels in the forum.

 

As for body types, half the guys in Malifaux are wizards, good old Hanna could have been a chubby for example or one of the wrastlers. I mean, I get having physical pinnacles for stuff like Ice Dancers, Oiran or all flavors of monks, but on something like Oxfordian mages? they could have all been eating cheetos and breaking paper notes while screaming an implied lightning bolt and still work perfectly for that concept.