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"Oh my god, not this again."

Yeah, I said it. I didn't get to say nothing last two times this came up within 2 days so now I get to and that's fair.

I don't want "ordinary" or "normal" or "basic."

If I'm playing a fantasy game, I want fantasy characters. That means big scary monsters, big boobs, and tough guys.... maybe. If I want normal unexciting bullshit I have real life for that. This game is excessive in every regard you can think of - and that is what draws people to it and offends others.

You could literally think of anything to get upset about and you can point the finger at this game. Oh geez, there's not enough "little people" in this game, there's too much stereotypes or racist connotation. Oh no, some girls name sounds vaguely like some other girls name - and could be, in some backwards way, perceived as offensive.

If you are looking for a game to not be offended by you're in the wrong place. There is drug abuse, a hooker for each (faction that counts), serial killers, criminal empires, killer kids, an entire faction built on stereotypes... everything. You might be offended by [insert whatever the hell you want here] - the easiest way to not be offended is: don't buy it. Move on, stop looking.

For every person who is offended by something there is another who is desperately seeking exactly this type of game/subject matter.

You might want censorship, but I counter that by saying I'm a person who wants excess, who wants nudity, etc etc.

TL;DR - So for every big burly tough (real?) chick - I expect one to be fighting against the forces of mankind practically naked with a greatsword, deal?

Also, put this in its own thread instead of hyjacking other ones that have nothing to do with it.

Moving on...

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Love the idea of the starter - I'm a bit disappointed with the quality of the models (at least the neverborn side) - but I undertand the reason why they kept it simple.

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"Oh my god, not this again."

Yeah, I said it. I didn't get to say nothing last two times this came up within 2 days so now I get to and that's fair.

I don't want "ordinary" or "normal" or "basic."

If I'm playing a fantasy game, I want fantasy characters. That means big scary monsters, big boobs, and tough guys.... maybe. If I want normal unexciting bullshit I have real life for that. This game is excessive in every regard you can think of - and that is what draws people to it and offends others.

You could literally think of anything to get upset about and you can point the finger at this game. Oh geez, there's not enough "little people" in this game, there's too much stereotypes or racist connotation. Oh no, some girls name sounds vaguely like some other girls name - and could be, in some backwards way, perceived as offensive.

If you are looking for a game to not be offended by you're in the wrong place. There is drug abuse, a hooker for each (faction that counts), serial killers, criminal empires, killer kids, an entire faction built on stereotypes... everything. You might be offended by [insert whatever the hell you want here] - the easiest way to not be offended is: don't buy it. Move on, stop looking.

First of all, you could take your own advice and stop reading and posting if these topics upset you so much ;)

Second, it's hard to stop looking if that something stares at you from across the table.

Third, you're conflating sexism and inappropriateness. Some things are bad since they are sexist, others are bad because they are inappropriate for a tabletop minis game.

For every person who is offended by something there is another who is desperately seeking exactly this type of game/subject matter.

You might want censorship, but I counter that by saying I'm a person who wants excess, who wants nudity, etc etc.

Censorship? Please. Also note that I, for example, am in no way against nudity. Nude minis are awesome. But it has to serve a purpose.

TL;DR - So for every big burly tough (real?) chick - I expect one to be fighting against the forces of mankind practically naked with a greatsword, deal?

I think you're winning quite handsomely currently. So maybe we should get, say, 10,000 of those burly chicks and then start releasing both styles alternating one after the other?
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There's like, two black people in all of Malifaux. I mean, yeah, they have lots of Asians and some Latinos but that's it. It's still extremely white (and Asian).

And you won't believe how racially problematic a different forum found Wong...

 

I was just smacking Wyrd around for contextual implications, so let's talk about Wong, why people get to feel the way they do about it, and what Wyrd did right.

 

Gremlins misappropriate whatever cultural detritus tumbles out of the Breach and into the Bayou. They cover a variety of stereotypes, mostly of the American south, but turn of the century "hillbilly" life more generally. However, there are two Breaches (at least) and one of them opens into Ten Thunders territory, which is the respectful, serious sino-asian faction.

 

Wong? Wong is that guy who just saw Naruto and won't shut up. Wong is that guy who is just, like, really into Buddhism right now. Wong is a vaudeville act based around exploiting powers and cultures he does not understand and it blows up in his face. Wong, like all the Gremlins, is a caricature, but if he's a caricature of anything it's Western culture's fascination with Eastern Mysticism.

 

So of course you can see how people who aren't familiar with the system and the setting might have a problem with that, and you can see how people from the culture being exploited might not appreciate the reference.

 

Ten Thunders is the counterpoint to the Wong box. There are monks and ninja masters, but there are are also union leaders, card sharps, and a small legion of mythical creatures. Ten Thunders examines the Western exploitation of Asian labour and their often concealed role in shaping history, in addition to their struggle to preserve their culture in the fact of Western imperialism (Guild, Arcanists). The fluff is critical of Western complicity in Asian exploitation and it even comes through on some of the cards.

 

And a friendly reminder that changing the skin tone of your models is all it takes to change their race. Colette Du Bois is a canonical master of makeup and could be Korean for all we know. Wyrd should still make models from a more diverse cast of people, and I personally would like to see more African, Indian, and Aboriginal minions. (The spoiler'd Guild Sergeant looks like a really pale Metis person and it would be cool if Wyrd upped the melanin a bit.)

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I was just smacking Wyrd around for contextual implications, so let's talk about Wong, why people get to feel the way they do about it, and what Wyrd did right.

--snip good stuff--

I do agree with you. However, his outward appearance is straight from "yellow peril" posters and not really from Naruto-enthusiasts (whatever they look like). Not saying that there is anything wrong with the mini or the concept but it is quite jarring to a casual on-looker.

So yeah, agreed.

And a friendly reminder that changing the skin tone of your models is all it takes to change their race. Colette Du Bois is a canonical master of makeup and could be Korean for all we know. Wyrd should still make models from a more diverse cast of people, and I personally would like to see more African, Indian, and Aboriginal minions. (The spoiler'd Guild Sergeant looks like a really pale Metis person and it would be cool if Wyrd upped the melanin a bit.)

I'm talking about official artwork here as that's the only reasonable comparison point. I mean, even if you have greenstuffed shirts for all your female models, it really doesn't help the core issue :P

Also note that aside from skin tone, race often has an effect on people's bone structure, facial features, and hair, for example. Some of those are too small to really depict distinctively in minis but others not so much.

Finally, the two black people in the game are a prison brawler and a king of savages. Of course the background for both is a lot more nuanced (and especially Marcus' certainly subverts the stereotype very profoundly - and Ironsides is a woman) but the core concepts can certainly be seen as somewhat problematic.

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I'm not upset at all. Upset that I didn't get a jab at the topic the first couple times, maybe. I'm just kind of an aggressive person - I always talk like that. Kind of like a "not dealing with your shit" personality if that makes sense. :D

I really hope Wyrd starts making minis with boobs again, tbh. I don't have the original Blessed. :(

I don't believe in "inappropriate for a tabletop game" - are there rules for this somewhere?

I respectfully disagree with the content and tone of your post, Spectre.

Cool.

-----

EDIT: Sooooooo, if you don't mind - tell me why all you politically correct and sociologically minded individuals are playing a game with this type of context? I seem to belong here - what's your story? ;)

See where I'm going with that?

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I don't believe in "inappropriate for a tabletop game" - are there rules for this somewhere?

Yeah, there's an ISO standard. Unfortunately it costs quite a bit so I can't just give it to you ;)

EDIT: Sooooooo, if you don't mind - tell me why all you politically correct and sociologically minded individuals are playing a game with this type of context? I seem to belong here - what's your story? ;)

See where I'm going with that?

Yeah, somewhere really fruitful where your mind is absolutely open to what other people say and you're ready to reconsider your opinions in light of what someone might say :P;)

In all seriousness, sexism in minis games is real while violence in minis games is make-believe. I'm not going to go into it further since I doubt it would be useful but just to be able to say that I did answer you.

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Finally, the two black people in the game are a prison brawler and a king of savages. Of course the background for both is a lot more nuanced (and especially Marcus' certainly subverts the stereotype very profoundly - and Ironsides is a woman) but the core concepts can certainly be seen as somewhat problematic.

 

Snipping good points, agreed, etc. I think Marcus has to be black/African because his story arc is that he is the ur-human. He is the ideal, perfect human. The ubermensch, and that concept doesn't need to be associated with whiteness any more than it has to be. (I'm not saying that he would have to white, but to illustrate how a white man is not a racial neutral with no adverse implications.)

 

I utterly agree with you on the beastmaster aspect, but it's a symptom of the larger problem: without a large enough body of models, the few must stand in for the whole. Wyrd can alleviate that simply by showing the many varied people of Malifaux in the many varied roles. At least two female/poc per 3 model box is a reasonable guideline until equilibrium is reached.

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Snipping good points, agreed, etc. I think Marcus has to be black/African because his story arc is that he is the ur-human. He is the ideal, perfect human. The ubermensch, and that concept doesn't need to be associated with whiteness any more than it has to be. (I'm not saying that he would have to white, but to illustrate how a white man is not a racial neutral with no adverse implications.)

 

I utterly agree with you on the beastmaster aspect, but it's a symptom of the larger problem: without a large enough body of models, the few must stand in for the whole. Wyrd can alleviate that simply by showing the many varied people of Malifaux in the many varied roles.

Agreed! Marcus is a great character and his only problem is that he is 50% of the black population of Malifaux. If there were more black people in the game, he wouldn't be in any way problematic but currently it's a bit weird.

At least two female/poc per 3 model box is a reasonable guideline until equilibrium is reached.

:D That would certainly be something wouldn't it! But currently I would settle for a box of three non-exclusively-female mooks where there's two women(!) and one man. And maybe the doubling of the black populace :)
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Yeah, somewhere really fruitful where your mind is absolutely open to what other people say and you're ready to reconsider your opinions in light of what someone might say :P;)

Hey now, are you being judgmental while avoiding my question at the same time? Nice combo. I'm about as introspective and openminded as an individual with my personality can be. I think many of my posts will back that up. I just don't want all you nice people walking all over us jerks with your righteous opinions, that's all. ;)

Could you imagine the shit storm if someone took offense to Baritone Lola? Come on now - sexism is hardly the worst thing Wyrd is stepping on.

In all seriousness, sexism in minis games is real while violence in minis games is make-believe.

:blink:

Go ahead and re-read that for me and tell me if that still makes sense to you. Pretty sure everything is fake in a mini game. ;)

You guys are right, sexism in miniature games is way more interesting than talking about the starter set. Proceed. :D

That's being openminded, right?

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Let's not forget Gluttony! Now we have at least three models with African heritage of some variety or another.

 

 

There are a lot of strong males in Malifaux who are neither weird nor old: Judge, Samael, Kang, Johan... Okay, they aren't Masters, that's true. But I don't see that particularly wide spectrum of female characters you mention, either.

 

Wouldn't be opposed to a male melee Master myself. An interesting spin to the stereotypical chain-axe-wielding bald buff guy would be highly appreciated.

 

I think that the biggest hurdle a melee-focused master needs to cross is the fact that it is really hard to make a model whose main purpose is scrumming it up interesting enough to lead a crew. That's the whole problem Guild players have been chewing on for a while with Lady Justice: yes, she is big and mean, but how frequently does charging something really change the pace of the game?

 

The Viktorias and Misaki are both "assassin" style masters, as opposed to "fighter" types; their effectiveness is based more on getting places the enemy doesn't want them to be than just throwing themselves at stuff until there is nothing left standing. While there are very few fighter-y masters, there are *tons* of fighter Henchmen, which I think is a better fit for the fighter role in the game, anyway. I'm on board for more Malifaux of any shape or size, but I'm not sure how excited I'd be for a new Master whose influence on the game is mostly centered on the few inches in arms reach.

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In all seriousness, sexism in minis games is real while violence in minis games is make-believe. I'm not going to go into it further since I doubt it would be useful but just to be able to say that I did answer you.

 

:+fate  :+fate  :+fate

 

I only posted the funny horrible creep stories earlier. I wanted to keep the thread light, so I didn't post about any of the things that were really scary or made me fear for my life, or any of the times I was assaulted.

 

Sexism (and racism) on the tabletop has chilling implications in the real-life community around the game.

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I friggin' love that skullsaw, btw.

The two master/henchmen are very interesting, despite the rest of the crew being plain.

Okay, back to sexism.

Sexism (and racism) on the tabletop has chilling implications in the real-life community around the game.

:-fate

Seems like an extreme conclusion to reach. Like "you should probably rewrite your thesis statement" farfetched.

Mostly I just point and laugh at my opponent because his guys have smaller hats than my guys. Then again, I try to keep deep social implications of my attitudes and actions outside of pushing around toy soldiers on a mat, I guess. Playing with minis is good lighthearted catharsis and I don't want to have to feel like I have to tip toe around the tulips when I want to smash face.

That may sound like I'm belitting your point - and I am a bit. But I just want to point out that I am of an extreme nature and even that is a bit extreme.

Example - So from your perspective you might see it as sexism but from my perspective I see a largely male dominated hobby and dudes just like boobs. We just do.

As the gender inequality shifts the community will naturally level itself to meet the needs of the new community composition.

Oh, and this should happen automatically, without the neccesity of rants. The women who come in will chill the guys out and they should act more respectable around the ladies - you see this all the time - in both community groups and workplaces.

The larger the population of women coming into the game, the more you'll see the miniature ranges change to meet those needs. Oh look, I even have proof. Examine right this second compared to even 10 years ago. Even then, apart from a few small game systems, women are still largely unrepresented in this hobby. Mostly because huge robots smashing each other doesn't tend to appeal to many women, me thinks. ;)

There we go Dirial - thag sounds openminded and respectable - kinda like an informed opinion that an openminded person might have. ;)

Now would someone please make a nude model for me. :(

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EDIT: Sooooooo, if you don't mind - tell me why all you politically correct and sociologically minded individuals are playing a game with this type of context? I seem to belong here - what's your story? ;)

 

I guess I should weigh in here then being that I'm a sociology lecturer who lectures a course on sex and gender.  The main reason that (sociologically) people play wargames (in my sociological opinion) is because they are a mimetic activity.  In other words they are a substitute for finding excitement in life that has become much more routine and predictable.  Previously we were have to be alert to threats and attacks on our lives at every time and so be ready to move from one extreme of emotion to another.  As life has become more controlled by governments who implement laws and have forces to keep us safe we no longer need to be so alert and so need to find alternative ways to release emotional affect.  This means that we find alternative things to provide excitement in our lives which is now missing.  Some people do this by travelling, some by watching or playing sports, others by partaking in extreme sports, and us by playing with toy soldiers that allow us to mimic the war/fights that we might previously have physically partaken in (see Norbert Elias - the controlled decontrolling of emotions).

 

As to the issue with female representation Malifaux is very good at having a range of females, much more so than other systems than I am familiar with.  This means that not all of the females in Malifaux are reduced to their sexuality and most are not restricted to the status of sidekick or love interest as they often are in other parts of popular culture.  Proportionally the women in Malifaux are also more representative of society.  Now this is not to say they are completely representative because approximately 50% of the world is female which is not the case in Malifaux.  Does this matter?  Well yes because it is an issue that is perversive in society whereby women are under-represented in particular jobs, board level jobs etc. and are often reduced to their looks and sexuality in a way that men are not (though men are under more pressure to conform to certain looks that previously there are still more of a range of acceptable looks for men and their success is not based on their looks in the same way).  However, I would argue that there are much more serious problems when it comes to sexual discrimination that need to be addressed so perhaps attacking a fantasy war game which is a choice to play is not where this effort should be focused.

 

You did ask ...

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There we go Dirial - thag sounds openminded and respectable - kinda like an informed opinion that an openminded person might have. ;)

 

Why am I singled out?

 

As the gender inequality shifts the community will naturally level itself to meet the needs of the new community composition.

Oh, and this should happen automatically, without the neccesity of rants. The women who come in will chill the guys out and they should act more respectable around the ladies - you see this all the time - in both community groups and workplaces.

The larger the population of women coming into the game, the more you'll see the miniature ranges change to meet those needs. Oh look, I even have proof. Examine right this second compared to even 10 years ago. Even then, apart from a few small game systems, women are still largely unrepresented in this hobby. Mostly because huge robots smashing each other doesn't tend to appeal to many women, me thinks. ;)

 

I think you try to disassociate the rants from the process of levelling to the needs of the community composition. They are a symptom thereof, a symptom called critical feedback. If people don't want change, they don't want critical feedback, logically. If you don't mind change, the logical reaction to critical feedback would be to say "Meh, that change doesn't mean much to me, but why the hell not?" Ironically, that reaction is a rare one, I feel.

 

However, I would argue that there are much more serious problems when it comes to sexual discrimination that need to be addressed so perhaps attacking a fantasy war game which is a choice to play is not where this effort should be focused.

 

Jonah, I loved your post because I look at it in a similar way. However, I'd like to comment on this last point:

Of course, there are bigger issues. Of course, it's a little unfair to "attack" the game which does best on this particular front. The issue is that a fundamental change in the perception and reasoning of a lot of people has to happen before we can resolve these problems. And that change has to start somewhere. There shouldn't be a "safe space" where anyobody can hide from that change. And it has to target the open minded ones first, to get the support one needs to convince the close-minded ones. If people aren't ready to change things on a large scale, perhaps they are ready to change things on something so unimportant as a game, and start to open their mind.

 

Baby steps.

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Ok, but given the intentional negative attitude of all characters of the game, how can the argument "Why are most of the socially dangerous psycho sadistic corrupted abusing slaughterous traitorous depraved substance-addicted inviduals there, western white fit males? Why don't we do depict more socially dangerous psycho sadistic corrupted abusing slaughterous traitorous depraved substance-addicted women here? Possibly overweight? And once overweight, not white skinned? Many more people would feel represented, by those characters!" be PRO the cause?

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Ok, but given the intentional negative attitude of all characters of the game, how can the argument "Why are most of the socially dangerous psycho sadistic corrupted abusing slaughterous traitorous depraved substance-addicted inviduals there, western white fit males? Why don't we do depict more socially dangerous psycho sadistic corrupted abusing slaughterous traitorous depraved substance-addicted women here? Possibly overweight? And once overweight, not white skinned? Many more people would feel represented, by those characters!" be PRO the cause?

 

It isn't about glorification, it's about representation, perception, and somewhere down the line about taking it for granted that bad character attributes (or any for that matter) and not in any way connected to gender, skin color, etc.

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Because there is also the possibility that you can put a white person to depict anything and it's okay. Apart from people wanting more variety of course. But you make a dark skinned convict gunslinger and you are waiting for a shit storm to hit. It is to make white people be all the bad things without causing an alarm. But you have to tread lightly nowadays with anything else.

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Jonah, I loved your post because I look at it in a similar way. However, I'd like to comment on this last point:

Of course, there are bigger issues. Of course, it's a little unfair to "attack" the game which does best on this particular front. The issue is that a fundamental change in the perception and reasoning of a lot of people has to happen before we can resolve these problems. And that change has to start somewhere. There shouldn't be a "safe space" where anyobody can hide from that change. And it has to target the open minded ones first, to get the support one needs to convince the close-minded ones. If people aren't ready to change things on a large scale, perhaps they are ready to change things on something so unimportant as a game, and start to open their mind.

 

Baby steps.

I agree to a certain extent.  However, I do also think we need to be cautious about going too far.  What goes on in fantasy or inside people's heads should be separate from real world discrimination.  This isn't to say that a lack of representation in a fantasy wargame (see also computer games, I'm sure we've all seen the various vids/pics regarding female armour and it's ridiculousness) is an issue that should be brushed apart but as a form of escapism it shouldn't be treated with the same seriousness as should the lack of opportunities that women have for employment/promotion etc.  Of course there is an irony to what I presume is predominately men debating the representation of women (though Malfiaux seems to have a far higher proportion of female players than any other system I've encountered).

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jonah - That is the response I was hoping for but not expecting to see on a miniature gaming message board. Personally, I think mimetic behavior is more of an excuse than an outlet. People feel constrained by expectation so they do something "responsible" like wargaming instead of doing what they really want to. Of course, this is probably best for society at large but goes against human nature. Furthermore, are these people who display mimetic behavior perhaps just living vicariously through the dregs of this game? Psychology says probably. Especially when Seamus is probably the most popular character (or a real life example - The Saw franchise dwarfs the rest as being the most popular horror movie franchise - sure makes you wonder what's going on in society and I don't think mimetic behavior quite cuts it as an excuse).

I feel perfectly fine admitting the extent of my depravity because I know its bounds are within the expectations of society. Its these "normal" or "nice" people who do abnormal things and try to justify them that I wonder about. What are they hiding?

Now go play somewhere else - that question was mean't to put people on the spot and force them to question their behavior or otherwise set them up to dismiss the question outright because they don't have an answer to it and it challenges their psychology - not to be answered empirically! :D

I noted in a previous post that I thought it was strange that mostly men where debating/defending sexism on behalf of women. Apparently no one else thought that was strange. :/

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zFiend makes an excellent point - White people are forced to take it on the chin without excuse because of our general life of privilege.

As a person of scandanavian descent, I know for a fact that no relative of mine took part in any wrongdoings to other cultures, at least of North Ameican or African heritage, and I should not have to be subjected to stereotypes because I look white. If that doesn't work for you - then how about "I'm 'viking' and I don't give a shit?"

Also, why are seamus and mcmourning both irish in the wyrd podcast? Seamus I understand but common. Racism!

Ooooorrrrr, perhaps the answer is to chill and try to not to be offended by all the crazy shit in the world. Life's easy that way.

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This is getting silly now. First post criticising the box is because we can see a girls bellybutton despite the fact there is a male adonis with shirt off in there.

Starting the game my first master was female because i liked the idea of a fiery angel of doom wearing a duster supported by fire demons.

Maybe my first choice of faction has skewed my perception as 5 out of 7 masters are female but even my second faction nb have their 3 main players are all female too.

Are we saying old women crazy enough to go through a whole body skin transplant in order to preserve their looks are going to be worried about modesty? Or zombie hookers? Nekima a demon with no needs for any modesty at all only wearing a bikini compared to the males of her species wearing loin cloths?

Now sure you can pick up issues if you look for them but if you just enjoy the game for what it is you'll enjoy it more and life in general too!

Also i'm fairly sure sidir would also count as black being based seemingly on morgan freemans character from robin hood prince of thieves.

If there was a girl in our gaming group she may be the butt of some sexist jokes in the same way shorter players get short jokes, gingers ginger jokes etc. Now that may not be for some people but that doesnt make it bad we are just an easy going group of guys with similar interests.

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