PraetorDragoon Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 $65. And yes, the sculpts are much more basic in some regards, and are meant to be, for folks just starting out on the game. It's getting cheaper the more I look at it Does that mean these minis won't have the traditional wyrd fiddly bits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r4st4f4n Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 I don't think that Nurse Heartsbane is meant to be sexy which explains her proportions being more normal. It's also refreshing. As for the price, I think that $65 sounds like a very fair price. Don't forget that you also get two Fate decks in it. I was expecting something like $80 but OTOH I do understand the starter reduction. I didn't mean "not sexy" (I would be a fool to open that can of worms for no reason! O.o), I cropped the nurse image because I recalled the image of Reaper nurse being very similar. My opinion was about all the renders on the box, they all look similar to Reaper's range in body proportions, and you'll agree it is quite different from Malifaux cartoonish style and anatomical relationships(heads vs. arms vs. shins...) Since it affects all of them in the box and not just one or two who might obviously have just different physique, I was wondering if it was just an image deformation problem. Or, maybe also, a wrong perception on my side.Edit. Some not-the-wrong-gender-to-make-an-example reference added Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Absolution Black Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 She still has a woman's body...just hidden under a large trenchcoat. No problems with that....your imagination can do the rest lol! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 I didn't mean "not sexy" (I would be a fool to open that can of worms for no reason! O.o), I cropped the nurse image because I recalled the image of Reaper nurse being very similar. My opinion was about all the renders on the box, they all look similar to Reaper's range in body proportions, and you'll agree it is quite different from Malifaux cartoonish style and anatomical relationships(heads vs. arms vs. shins...)The Wyrd style for women is to make them sexy by making their legs go on forever. It reached its peak with the Multipart sets where the women were a head taller than the men since their legs are so long. Heartsbane has normal length legs so looks different, I agree, but I feel that they only do the crazy long legs for sexy minis. Which is why men aren't affected. In other words, I don't think that, other than Heartsbane, the minis differ in style from the rest of Malifaux minis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferossa Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 I love the grimness of the Guild models. Would like to see a full shirt on Angel Eyes, since this is getting ridiculous and more than a little insulting. It's a great model, so why isn't she wearing a shirt? It's messed-up that the first woman whose role is professional instead of decorative comes out in wave 4. Overall I like it, but I'm exhausted with Wyrd's Default Female Non-Shirt and lack of imagination when it comes to women. Given how women have suffered disproportionately in mental asylums (like Zelda Fitzgerald, who was strapped to her bed as the building burned around her), there's a lot of room for more horror-esque female models. (They'd also make a great Miss Guilty.) The gender imbalance is especially jarring without a focused master to offset it, and the box feels imbalanced. I really didn't want to post about this, but the way female models are portrayed are the things that keep me in, or push me out of a game. I shouldn't have to fight to find models that are strong without being sexy. Right now, the message is Wyrd is sending is that women only get to exist in Malifaux if they exceed modern, impossible beauty standards (McMourning's Nurse's boobs are bigger than her head). I want to play the game with my friend's daughter and have her see women who look like her, not women who look like Sports Illustrated. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mako Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 $65 you say? Sweet..about £40 UK then ...it will just be the postage that burns me if it is available at Gencon lol! I can be bribed to carry stuff back through customs... I'm going to gencon in person 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clockwork Top Hat Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 I can be bribed to carry stuff back through customs... I'm going to gencon in person Do you accept souls as acceptable payment? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxypoo Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 Really cool idea, and seems like a great way to get new players into the game considering it really has everything you need. The unique models and Fate Decks (especially the sweet artwork) provide some incentive for existing players to pick it up. As far as models go, I really like the orderly holding the syringe behind his back as well as Angel Eyes; she really radiates menace with that pose and facial expression. Not a huge fan of the Scion of Black Blood since he has GW Catachan arm syndrome - i.e. huge, blocky muscles with very defined creases between them. Also, he clearly skips leg day! But otherwise, definitely a nice box, especially for only $65. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferossa Posted June 29, 2015 Report Share Posted June 29, 2015 Scion of Black Blood looks goofy, but he'll be really easy for new players to paint and make look good. I think it's important to remember that this is marketed to people who may not have played a miniatures game before, and the work required to assemble the models and make them look good is daunting to new players. There's a lot of cloth and muscle and not a lot of fiddly bits. And I may need to reconsider my criticism of Angel Eyes in light of the Scion's package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admiralvorkraft Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Oh, wow, can't look away from that now that it's pointed out... Not that I'm complaining. Also, for what it's worth, a lot of the men of Malifaux are pretty leggy in their own right - Levi is quite the silver fox these days, and those Wastrels... Obviously it doesn't look as sexual on them as it does on the women, but still. Also, female alt-sculpt for the Guilty would be great - a witch burning come back to hunt the burners maybe? I kind of like the idea of the Guilty as being the last memory that exists of the dead, it's so burned into the mind of the killer that Jack Daw is able to rip it out of their memories and make it manifest. They're a guilty conscience rather than a guilty creature... Man I wish I was a better modeler because I would convert up a storm on that theme. Anyway, /ramble. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zinc Lich Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 I'm really, really excited for this set. I'm hoping that the Orderlies are the cheap, tough tarpit minions the Guild faction has been grousing about not having for a while now, seeing as Angel Eyes and the Scion are both going to be bringing some healthy looking guns to the Neverborn. I'm also hoping that Mad Doctor 2.0 plays well with McMourning. At first I was a little bit cheesed that we were getting another grinning mad scientist in Guild, but the more I think about it, the more I realize that I shouldn't be complaining about being able to double down on the evil fascist super science. I'm in love with Angel Eyes, as well. She has a real Mad Max feel to her that I dig, although I agree that it is a little bit weird to be wearing a full jacket with nothing underneath. Ah, well, I've been green stuff-ing shirts onto inexplicably bare midriffs for a while now, I suppose that I have the practice. I am happy to see Nurse Heartsbane and the Scion switching the traditional eye-candy roles, more variety is always a good thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoHero Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 I love the grimness of the Guild models. Would like to see a full shirt on Angel Eyes, since this is getting ridiculous and more than a little insulting. It's a great model, so why isn't she wearing a shirt? It's messed-up that the first woman whose role is professional instead of decorative comes out in wave 4. Overall I like it, but I'm exhausted with Wyrd's Default Female Non-Shirt and lack of imagination when it comes to women. Given how women have suffered disproportionately in mental asylums (like Zelda Fitzgerald, who was strapped to her bed as the building burned around her), there's a lot of room for more horror-esque female models. (They'd also make a great Miss Guilty.) The gender imbalance is especially jarring without a focused master to offset it, and the box feels imbalanced. I really didn't want to post about this, but the way female models are portrayed are the things that keep me in, or push me out of a game. I shouldn't have to fight to find models that are strong without being sexy. Right now, the message is Wyrd is sending is that women only get to exist in Malifaux if they exceed modern, impossible beauty standards (McMourning's Nurse's boobs are bigger than her head). I want to play the game with my friend's daughter and have her see women who look like her, not women who look like Sports Illustrated. Sonnia, Molly, Tara, Rasputina, Mei Feng, Ironsides, Zoraida, Misaki, Hannah, Alyce, Vanessa, Chiaki, Yamaziko, and Candy. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mason Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 I'm also hoping that Mad Doctor 2.0 plays well with McMourning. McMourning and Grimwell have been known to bro-fist for great victory. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zinc Lich Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Sonnia, Molly, Tara, Rasputina, Mei Feng, Ironsides, Zoraida, Misaki, Hannah, Alyce, Vanessa, Chiaki, Yamaziko, and Candy. You forgot Perdita, Karina, the Student of Conflict, and Mah Tucket. Ophelia and Trixiebelle kind of a push because they are parodies of other sexy models, and you have a bunch of undead and monster women in Neverborn and Resserectionists. If you are really going to have this fight, you then need to go through and point out that those models are balanced against Lady Justice, Myranda, Collette, Kaeris, Cassandra, Kirai, Lillith, Pandora, both Viktorias, and the Hollow Waifs for inexplicably under dressed leader models. Only about 70% of the iconic, named, living human females are dressed and posed for violent encounter, which, while a lot better than other gaming companies (I'm looking at you, Corvus Belli), definitely has room for improvement. Your argument that "there are plenty of non-sexualized women in Malifaux" only really works when you are counting those named models though. I heard the number quoted somewhere that the total number of female models in the game, when you count *all* the models, hovers somewhere around 1/5. On top of that, what are the places where we are getting most of those female minions? Sexy Nurses, sexy Oiran, sexy Ronin, sexy Performers, sexy zombies in several colours, sexy Beckoners, sexy Doppelgangers... Nurse Heartsbane is a great model, but the fact remains that the two player starter is still 1/4 women, as is the Crossroads Seven. I have a hard time arguing with women who feel under represented in the hobby because they are right, they are under represented. Just because Wyrd is doing a better job than everyone else doesn't mean the situation can't get better. At least they have a good balance of ethnic models kicking around Malifaux. Do you know how many years Markus Brisbane was the only canonically non-white person in the entirety of the Iron Kingdoms? 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Just because Wyrd is doing a better job than everyone else doesn't mean the situation can't get better. And not only about male/female ratio. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoHero Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 You forgot Perdita, Karina, the Student of Conflict, and Mah Tucket. Ophelia and Trixiebelle kind of a push because they are parodies of other sexy models, and you have a bunch of undead and monster women in Neverborn and Resserectionists. I didn't include them because I was suggesting the more conservatively dressed women. You forgot Perdita, Karina, the Student of Conflict, and Mah Tucket. Ophelia and Trixiebelle kind of a push because they are parodies of other sexy models, and you have a bunch of undead and monster women in Neverborn and Resserectionists. If you are really going to have this fight, you then need to go through and point out that those models are balanced against Lady Justice, Myranda, Collette, Kaeris, Cassandra, Kirai, Lillith, Pandora, both Viktorias, and the Hollow Waifs for inexplicably under dressed leader models. I am not trying to start a "fight" and using that terminology only escalates a discussion. Additionally, while there are women dressed more scantily I believe there is a balance between the two. Not every model has to be conservatively dressed. There also male models dressed scantily: Marcus, Joss, Kang, BIshop, Convict Gunslinger, and Ten Thunders archers. Your argument that "there are plenty of non-sexualized women in Malifaux" only really works when you are counting those named models though. I heard the number quoted somewhere that the total number of female models in the game, when you count *all* the models, hovers somewhere around 1/5. On top of that, what are the places where we are getting most of those female minions? Sexy Nurses, sexy Oiran, sexy Ronin, sexy Performers, sexy zombies in several colours, sexy Beckoners, sexy Doppelgangers... You assume I am making that "argument"; once again using terminology to escalate the situation. I would like to take the time to point out if you look at any of my posts on this forum I think you will see I am not one to start arguments. I was not making any comments about gender imbalance and I believe having different genders and ethnicities represented in a game is important. I was merely responding to Ferossa's comment on "Wyrd's Default Female Non-Shirt and lack of imagination when it comes to women". I was giving suggestions that there are several models that are not "Female Non-Shirt". Additionally, I believe Wyrd does not have a "Default Female Non-Shirt" mentality and I also don't believe they are lacking imagination, although I do not speak on behalf of the company. Please consider and review your comments before making accusations, especially as a moderator. I honestly believe we can have a balanced discussion on this forum without being hostile. Edited for grammar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferossa Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 I am not trying to start a "fight" and using that terminology only escalates a discussion. Additionally, while there are women dress more scantily I believe there is a balance between the two. Not every model has to be conservatively dressed. There also male models dress scantily: Marcus, Joss, Kang, BIshop, Convict Gunslinger, and Ten Thunders archers. It's not the skimpy dressing, although Malifaux seems to emit some sort of fog that disintegrates women's shirts. The scantily clad, muscular models you mentioned are male power fantasies. The Oiran, Ronin, and all the other models mentioned are male sexual fantasies, not female power fantasies. If Malifaux had female power fantasies, the female masters would be forty pounds heavier and look like they could punch through a brick wall. And, because I have to say it every time, there's nothing wrong with sexualised models; Malifaux has enough sexy female models and doesn't need any more. After three waves, it's frustrating that female players don't get models that look like they can take a punch, and even in the areas where women have been historically over-represented (ie. mental institutions), they're completely absent from the narrative. It shows a lack of imagination and weak world-building, which are Malifaux's strengths. It's hard not to feel like women simply don't merit the effort. I don't think this is Wyrd's intent, but they've reached a large enough body of work that the gender imbalance creates an undercurrent of misogyny. It may have been an accident, but they're responsible for fixing it. A Wave 4 with nothing but female models would go a long way to balancing the all male boxes from the first three waves, and there's always Gencon gender-flips. (I really like what they did with the Dark Carnival and haven't posted about it because my thoughts are around the 3k word mark.) 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoHero Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 It's not the skimpy dressing, although Malifaux seems to emit some sort of fog that disintegrates women's shirts. The scantily clad, muscular models you mentioned are male power fantasies. The Oiran, Ronin, and all the other models mentioned are male sexual fantasies, not female power fantasies. If Malifaux had female power fantasies, the female masters would be forty pounds heavier and look like they could punch through a brick wall. And, because I have to say it every time, there's nothing wrong with sexualised models; Malifaux has enough sexy female models and doesn't need any more. After three waves, it's frustrating that female players don't get models that look like they can take a punch, and even in the areas where women have been historically over-represented (ie. mental institutions), they're completely absent from the narrative. It shows a lack of imagination and weak world-building, which are Malifaux's strengths. It's hard not to feel like women simply don't merit the effort. I don't think this is Wyrd's intent, but they've reached a large enough body of work that the gender imbalance creates an undercurrent of misogyny. It may have been an accident, but they're responsible for fixing it. A Wave 4 with nothing but female models would go a long way to balancing the all male boxes from the first three waves, and there's always Gencon gender-flips. (I really like what they did with the Dark Carnival and haven't posted about it because my thoughts are around the 3k word mark.) I do not speak for women, this only my opinion. I believe that some people's "fantasies" are to be alluring both male and female. I do believe the master Ironsides can take a punch and looks tougher than some male models. It also looks like she can take not only a punch, but many and has the batte scars to prove it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 I really like what they did with the Dark Carnival and haven't posted about it because my thoughts are around the 3k word mark. If it is possible to boil it down to just the gist, I would very much appreciate a separate thread on that. If only criticisms are leveled without also pointing out what went right, it becomes very easy for people to roll their eyes, say, "oh, this again," and move on. I'm not saying I am personally at that point, or that is the attitude of Wyrd. But I know people. And that is something that is very apt to start happening. And this is just as true when it comes to any criticism, be it about sexism, the band, whatever. There are lots of studies that show that outrage is the thing that spreads most quickly on the internet. So it's very easy for people to jump into subjects like this, on both sides. That doesn't make them wrong. But it also doesn't make the conversation more productive. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferossa Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 If it is possible to boil it down to just the gist, I would very much appreciate a separate thread on that. If only criticisms are leveled without also pointing out what went right, it becomes very easy for people to roll their eyes, say, "oh, this again," and move on. I'm not saying I am personally at that point, or that is the attitude of Wyrd. But I know people. And that is something that is very apt to start happening. And this is just as true when it comes to any criticism, be it about sexism, the band, whatever. There are lots of studies that show that outrage is the thing that spreads most quickly on the internet. So it's very easy for people to jump into subjects like this, on both sides. That doesn't make them wrong. But it also doesn't make the conversation more productive. I'm polishing it as a full literary essay, but imo it was handled fairly respectfully. You have the full spectrum of gender identity, and while the carnival/freak show aesthetic is inappropriate in most modern contexts, in Malifaux as a Colette alt, the box carries the same interrogation of gender roles that Colette's does. It's an inverse of smoke and shadows, really. Where Colette's box is based around looking weak and being strong (femininity!), Mr. Cooper's models give the illusion of strength/resistance (masculinity!) when they're really a hyper-mobile crew based on "feminine" skills (like the circus). You can see it as a horror box, but that says more about how you perceive gender-variant men than Wyrd. The four distinct models give you the ability to fully proxy Colette's models, and running them with performers only legitimises the Dark Carnival and its place in Malifaux. Most of the fluff and underlying messages of Malifaux are great, which is why the art disconnect is becoming so jarring. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spectrehorseman Posted June 30, 2015 Report Share Posted June 30, 2015 Simpler does not mean cheaper for production - not when you are working in plastic in any way or form. A steel mold is a steel mold, there is a cost to it. side note: I found a picture of one of Wyrd's steel molds, pretty neat. on topic. I love this idea of a Starter Box although, it looks like I'm gonna be pretty well tapped out come Gen Con. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Zinc Lich Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 I didn't include them because I was suggesting the more conservatively dressed women. If you think Sonnia is conservatively dressed, you obviously have never worn heels. There's a reason she's clicking around at Wk 4 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferossa Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 I do not speak for women, this only my opinion. I believe that some people's "fantasies" are to be alluring both male and female. I do believe the master Ironsides can take a punch and looks tougher than some male models. It also looks like she can take not only a punch, but many and has the batte scars to prove it. Which is why you generally don't see me complain about the masters. I accept that they're based on a Hollywood ideal aesthetic. The issue arises when, out of the aggregate female models in Malifaux, it's hard to find one that's wearing all of her clothes. Whether or not it's intended, it sends a pretty strong message about women's place in Malifaux, and I don't think that's a message that Wyrd wants to send. The low-hipser pants haven't been in style since the late 90's and early 00's. They're different pants from the regular Guardsmen models (great female sculpt!) which Angel Eyes appears to be based on. It's dated and strange looking, and the lack of shirt makes an otherwise nonsexual model into a sexual fantasy. That is my problem. Yeah, I can greenstuff a shirt on, but Wyrd can just as easily tell their artists to draw women in sensible clothing. My point is that sexualised models have been done. Let's see something with more imagination. The same could be said about dudes in trenchcoats. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirial Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 The same could be said about dudes in trenchcoats. Not top hats, though. Never enough top hats. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted July 1, 2015 Report Share Posted July 1, 2015 First they came for the trenchcoats, and I didn't speak up, because I didn't wear a trenchcoat. Then they came for the monocles, and I didn't speak up, because I didn't wear a monocle. Then they came for the top hats... and everyone spoke up, because who doesn't love a flippin' top hat? 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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