New Player, starting Seamus

[benjoewoo]

Hey everyone, I've joined the ressers and I'm planning to start off with Seamus. My play group is pretty much going to be three people, and the other two will be pretty much playing the same people each time. One person will play almost exclusively Outcast, primarily the Viks, and the other player is a Neverborn player, who I think will be primarily playing Dreamer.

 

I am fairly sure our games will be relatively low points at first, and might go up to 50. 

 

I've been learning the game, primarily in reading the manual and seeing how people play in their battle report videos, and am looking to play my first game soon, hoping not to get destroyed too badly.

 

With that background done, here's what I'm posting to ask: What kind of general purpose crews should I use against these match ups (Viks & Dreamer)?

 

Based on reading other threads here and watching videos, it seems like the following would be a good start to learn, practice, and later use as I get better, because the set up is "generally" good. 

 

(#) is the cost. I don't own the book and am trying to recall from my friend's book. We'd probably play relatively small games, and I understand Seamus crews don't do that amazingly without more support, but it is what it is.

 

Seamus (0)--Sinister Reputation/Mad Haberdasher/Red Chapel Killer, all of these seem good, and not very sure which to go with. Mad Haberdasher seems better

 

Sybelle (8)--Bleeding Tongue (Viks)/Not too Banged Up (Dreamer)

 

CCK (5)

 

2x Rotten Belles (2x5 = 10)

 

Nurse (5)

 

Thoughts on the set up, particularly in the match ups, and tips for playing Seamus in these match ups and how to streamline learning Seamus specific tactics much appreciated.

 

 

[Dirial]

Welcome to Malifaux!

I cannot help much, but small games are not balanced. Summoners skew them especially. Be aware that the Dreamer might be vastly more powerful than the others.

The Copycat costs 3 if I'm not mistaken.

I don't get the comment on upgrades. You could take all 3.

[benjoewoo]

Oh Ok. Yeah I guess it's just a matter of cost. 

 

Hmmm, what would you suggest for higher ss games? And at what SS count does the game become balanced playing against summoners? What crews would you suggest?

[Dirial]

The game has been balanced for 50 SS games, so that's what you should aim for.

The crews I'd suggest depend a lot on the Strategy and Schemes. Models that would work great with yours for different VP conditions:

Yin

Bishop

Necropunks

Hanged

Rogue Necromancy

[Blaze]

I guess you are playing 30ss. What you get in the starter box will perform quite well. I like how you have swapped out a Belle for a nurse. The nurse is very versatile.

Upgrades:

Its always worth taking sinister rep with Seamus, that -2WP in a 6"bubble is great. Keep in mind he also heals 2 wd everytime someone within 6 fails a WP test.

Mad Haberdasher seems like an auto include.

Extra guys:

Necropunks are relaible fast scheme runners.

Hanged are amazeballs (its really worth having 1 in your crew if you can afford it, however at 9ss they are expensive)

CCK is indeed 3ss

Rogue Necromancy (I just dont get it, 10ss seems like alot to pay for that model, I would rather have Izamu)

PS: It's always worth focusing when you shoot Seamus's gun, the last thing you want to do is miss or have a -Damage flipp on a 1 shoot per turn weapon.

[Dirial]

Izamu is way tankier than RN, true. RN has a high power ranged attack and interacts with Wp, however.

[benjoewoo]

What play tips can you give for relatively low SS games against dreamer, to minimize the summoner advantage?

[zFiend]

Lure the dreamer away from his nightmares, put Seamus on hallucinogens with a nurse and burn stones for crows and slap that annoying little kid to death without him passing them to his nightmares! Fun and thematic and just what that little snotnose deserves.

[Kogan Style]

You find Lure the answer to many problems! The Viks want to be within 6" of each other for slingshotting (I believe its 6") so a good lure on one with cause that ball of blades 'n' death to slow down. As above with the Dreamer, pull him out of his hidey hole and kill him.

 

You are playing with max 7ss cache, I find that Seamus doesn't always need to have max stones but they are a good back up. You could spend one of those to give Sybelle both her upgrades so that Lure becomes even more effective, as the model that was lured is now further than 1 AP's walk away!

 

 

Don't be afraid to use the Mad hat if it will save Seamus from getting paralysed/slow (if the model hitting him has an after damaging trigger). I used to try and save the hat for when a big hit was coming but sometimes that never happens, and 2ss have been wasted. I only include the Hat in games where Assassinate is in the Pool.

Red Chapel Killer is great, and you can have your own models drop scheme markers to act as way points for Seamus' murdering spree.

 

Sinister Rep is nice to cause Lure's, Nurse's Take your meds and Sybelles shriek to hit hard but it can force Seamus not to jump around so much, as the other models need him within 6" of the target to be effective. Consider the Bag O'tools upgrade when the strategy/schemes call for it (Spring the Trap, Plant Explosives etc...)

 

Most important tip - Do everything with an Irish accent, this bumps your duel totals by +2 as the Card Gods favour you

[Fetid Strumpet]

Hmmm, I tend to find with just about every resser master you want as close to max cache as possible, mainly because we have little to no way of getting more card cycling without constant spending stones at the beginning of turns. And while you will occasionally get cards to utilize without stones, I always assume every summon I make is going to require a stone.

With the caveate that General all purpose crews don't work as one tailored to the scenario, here is a good all purpose seamus list to work with:

Seamus 7 SS pool

Sinister reputation

Red Chapel killer

Mad haberdasher

Copycat killer

Sybelle

Bleeding tounge

Not too banged up

Yin

Unnerving aura

Nurse

3 rotten belles.

[Strangely Brown]

Lure the dreamer away from his nightmares, put Seamus on hallucinogens with a nurse and burn stones for crows and slap that annoying little kid to death without him passing them to his nightmares! Fun and thematic and just what that little snotnose deserves.

 

I think I've just found my signature!

[zFiend]

Right I forgot. Pack decaying aura so no prevention either.

[PraetorDragoon]

Lure the dreamer away from his nightmares, put Seamus on hallucinogens with a nurse and burn stones for crows and slap that annoying little kid to death without him passing them to his nightmares! Fun and thematic and just what that little snotnose deserves.

 

This sounds like the best tactic ever. Who needs bag of tools

[zFiend]

This sounds like the best tactic ever. Who needs bag of tools

No one.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but how are you luring te dreamer? Lure is an attack. Cannot the Dreamer just shift the Attack off on a nightmare?

[PraetorDragoon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but how are you luring te dreamer? Lure is an attack. Cannot the Dreamer just shift the Attack off on a nightmare?

 

Sure he can, but he doesn't have a baked in on Wp. (So he needs to cheat/burn a stone for them)

[Adran]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but how are you luring te dreamer? Lure is an attack. Cannot the Dreamer just shift the Attack off on a nightmare?

Ahh, you want the advanced version. Lure his nightmares away from the Dreamer. I'd probably start targetting the dreamer, and after he passed one across then pull out all the others

[zFiend]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but how are you luring te dreamer? Lure is an attack. Cannot the Dreamer just shift the Attack off on a nightmare?

 

3 Belles, 6 Lures on a ca8 with his wk6 +2 from Sybelle, oh he will get there. 

[Dirial]

3 Belles, 6 Lures on a ca8 with his wk6 +2 from Sybelle, oh he will get there. 

 

One successful Lure will move him 9-10" after all.

[benjoewoo]

Can I proxy dead doxy with version 1 models? I ask since dead doxy hasn't been released yet.

 

How critical is it to use punk zombies/the hanged/yin/valedictorian? Not looking to spend too much and I've already gotten the Seamus and McMourning starters.

 

I picked up those two because there was a good spread for roughly $60 in pieces, a canine remains for running stuff assuming the schemes and strategy call for it, along with the nurse option and then Seamus has almost gold for his own crew.

 

The dead doxy seems a good swap for nurse/belle potentially, or an addition in larger games, which is why I ask about proxying using a version 1 model. 

 

Is there a way to lure out dreamer in a 1 activation combo? E.g., with proper positioning, a belle next to Sybelle with Not Too banged Up to lure dreamer? I would think that dreamer could just deflect the move or the player wouldn't just put the dreamer in that kind of position.

 

Also for rules clarification, getting double suit essentially requires spending the soul stone, e.g. for Sweet Murder on Bag O' Tools. Were the comments about not needing it jokes? Really new, so not sure. Seems like a Melee 4, 6, 7 would be pretty nifty, like a 50 caliber flintlock.

[Adran]

If you proxy a dead doxy with one of your belles or Nurses, wyrd aren't going to come round your house with Pitchforks.

(Translation. If your play group is happy with that, then it should eb fine. Its a fairly sensible proxy but try and make it obvious which one it is. )

 

Its not critical to have any otehr models. More models will give you more options, and when you expand, thsoe are worth lookign at, but ath the moment you have enough to fieldn a reasonable 50 ss crew if you want.

 

Luring Dreamer won't always work. But the thrat of you doing it shouls make the Dreamer player be careful with his crew.

 

I don't have Bag of Tricks to hand, but your final total is the sum of ypour stat, plus the card, plus any suits you have on your stat, plus the suit of the card you use, plus any suits you paid before befoe the card flip. If you have a suit on the stat then you might get the second suit from the cardyou flipped or cheated in the duel, or you can pay for it.

 

Models can't have more than 1 Limited upgrade.

For Seamus that means you can pick Bag o Tools or Sinister Reputatuion. A lot of people prefere the sinster rep with the way they play. That doesn't make the bag bad, and its sometiems the better upgrade for your crew, dependign on how you play

[benjoewoo]

Bag o Tricks doesn't have a suit printed for on use--it has a trigger for each suit that's flipped.

 

My understanding from the rules is that the only way to get the double crows for Sweet Murder is to SS to add the suit, independent of SS to get the + flip. Is there another way? Or, am I missing something?

 

One of the things I figure will end up happening is that I'll play at first to get a handle on killing things efficiently. But, the Seamus killing crew isn't really the best at it, and killing is so that I can do strategy runs and fulfill schemes while minimizing enemy impact. That kind of makes heavy use of Seamus' flintlock a trap since often Seamus will be the one back alleying to position? 

 

Sound right? Also, while I'm pretty committed to Seamus for his theme, I'd like to know how competitive is he in a general sense? Seems like a huge portion of players are Neverborn and Arcanist, and while that is likely due to player preference, the sparse player trackers I see display top resser players being relatively low compared to #1 Neverborn players and below some of the following Neverborn players as well.

[Fetid Strumpet]

As for Proxing a Dead Doxy, in a casual setting, whatever your opponent will let you get away with is totally fine. In a tournament, it is solely down to the TOs discretion. In an Official Wyrd event, please see the gaining Grounds document for their official policy, and even then it's still going to be heavily influenced by the TOs call.

 

I would NEVER hire a punk zombie, as I feel they are correctly costed for the ability to summon them, and they are over-costed for purposes of hiring. So in my opinion they are less then negligible for a Seamus crew (see more about this later).

 

The Hanged, this is a special case. I personally do not rate them Highly at all, again as a hired model. They are absolutely amazing summons. Here's why. Terror is not an effective mechanic to build a list around. It is too high variance to rely upon. Yes it's really awesome for you and frustrating for your opponent when they get locked down and never get to swing because of a hanged. However a smart opponent will look at their pitiful def, and charge them when they know they have a card in hand that they can cheat with (remember even a model reduced to 3 wp only needs a 10 to pass the duel) or if they only have one card in hand and they are already in ML range, they will Focus, then hit you, only needing to make one check, and then doing massive dmg to your crappy df 4 (even though you have incorporeal) you are going to drop fast. And that is assuming they fail the flip, which at times, just out of nowhere, even the crappiest of models sometimes passes, and you are relying on that mechanic to keep you and others safe. So you are paying 9 SS for a model without extra AP, and no useful 0 action, who relies on an no very reliable mechanic to stay alive. Which brings us to the best ability on the hanged, Whisper from beyond.

 

Awesome ability, totally worth it against specific models that require healing, like most resser masters. Also awesome if you can land it on an enemy model with a lot of wounds. But its really only great as a first shot. Following up dmg is less and less effective, and you are counting on getting that first shot in to make the hanged worth it. A canny player isn't going to let your hanged get anywhere near their master, or if possible, to let you land that ability before they kill your hanged. So for me, Hanged are never even considered as a hire, unless one of two specific things occurs. Your opponent declares ressers as their faction, in which case a Hanged jumps to a must consider, as you have better odds of making sure then enemy will be hampered by not being able to heal. Or if close deployment is called, in which case you have a better shot of getting the hanged against a critical model in the enemy's crew. At any other time, if you aren't summoning them via Molly or Nicodem, I personally say leave them at home.

 

The Valedictorian, great solid model, useful for Seamus, not critical. I've considered her many times, but never brought her yet with Seamus, but she is a useful model to have in your collection. You can afford to wait on her if you are tight on money though.

 

Yin. Buy her right now. She isn't critical to Seamus, and you can certainly get away with not using her, but of the models you have mentioned she is the one I think will be most useful in your list more of the time. She offers a lot of synergy with a Seamus crew, and for a very good cost. First of all she has Terror. I know I just told you not to build a terror list, but here's the difference. Building a list of models because they have Terror I feel is a trap, and a bad idea. Building a list that has a lot of internal synergy and useful things, that just also happen to have Terror, almost incidentally, is awesome. Yin is such a model.

 

First she is a pain in the butt to kill. Her entrails ability means she effectively has cover and hard to wound against all attacks. Models that attack her without spending a stone or focusing first are almost guaranteed to miss, barring an exceptionally lucky run of flips, and even if they focus, it's almost like any model that does so gets a single regular attack against a model with 8 wounds and df 5. Also, if she actually has cover, almost nothing with the ranged icon is ever going to get through the double negative flip to hit her. She's a mini tank because of this. But then add her flight, which helps mitigate, a little, her slow speed, and her wicked ability with a 2" reach, and you have a very decent control model. But wait, there's more, she is part of the reason I would never hire a punk zombie, because her dmg is comparable, and even slightly better, for 1 more stone.

 

Her tendrils are ml6 2" range with a decently average dmg line, with a point of poison baked in and another trigger to give slow. That means, effectively, on one swing a turn she has min dmg 3. They might not die immediately from it, but its still really good. They only thing the punk has over her, in my opinion is the extra +flip to hit, and I'll take the higher dmg and extra trigger over that any day.

 

Then add in her other abilities. The fear behind the eyes is awesome because its a range 8 ca 6 WP attack, which does dmg (sinister rep Seamus loves this) and automatically puts on the condition that the enemy cannot walk or charge if it hits. Totally brilliant, with a lot of potential uses. They other trigger in particular has some benefit to Seamus, because if Seamus jumps up the board you can use this ability to offset Yin's slow speed. Target Seamus with the fear behind the eyes and cheat a mask, relent with Seamus, and do 1 dmg to him (which he will heal really fast) and then move up to him.

 

Finally her 0 action, another reason that puts her over the Punks in my opinion, first, she has a 0 action that target's WP, which is another source of healing for Seamus, but it combos exceptionally well with what he likes. It puts out a condition which lasts until Yin activates again, or is killed, and we already covered that she is a massive pain to kill. What it does is make the target take a negative flip to all casting and wp duels they are a part of... This has so many uses with Seamus it's not funny. In a Yin, Seamus, Sybelle list that's 3 important models with Terror, and if they aren't a SS user they probably won't get past the terror score, so that gives you protection. With The Fear behind the eyes, Sybelle's Shriek, The Belle's lure and undress actions, and heck any other attack action that target's wp this condition is great offensively. But the CA duel effect makes it solid gold. Any model with a CA action does not want this condition on them. It means that just to consider successfully casting a spell a SS user is going to have to spend a stone, and a non-SS user is almost always just going to fail their casts. And it lasts until Yin dies or goes again. Let me say again .

 

She is the prime example of what I like to see in synergy. Lots of good useful WP attacks. A very respectable Ml attack, with a 2" range. A nightmare to kill casually, and an investment to really kill with heavy hitters, and she has terror on top of it. She isn't a must hire, but of all the options you mentioned she is, in my opinion, the most essential of the lot.

 

 

I would never, scenario dependent, swap a Nurse for a Doxy. I don't tend to hire Doxies with Seamus because his crews tend not to need them at the start. I summon them a lot, but rarely hire them with Seamus outside building a Belle Bomb list, which I'm hesitant to do unless I know I'm not facing models with Black Blood, or explode upon death abilities. (as an aside a nasty trick to do with a doxie. Position 2 bells a little bit apart with a doxies slightly behind and between them. Use the nurse to give the Doxie Hallucinogens for +2 dmg. Lure a model in and Pounce with Both Belles, and a Doxie with Min Dmg 4. Companion the other Belle, Focus, and Lure the model again giving 2 more attacks from the belles, one of which is focused, and another attack from the Doxie at Ml 6 min dmg 4. Then attack twice more with the Doxie on its activation if the target hasn't escaped.)

 

The Dreamer can just push the lure off onto a nightmare if he spends a stone for, or cheats any mask into the duel to lure him. As an aside, the position of a Rotten Belle and Madam Sybelle with Not too banged up to each other is irrelevant. Not too banged up, in laymen's terms, works like this. You target a model with Lure. If the model doing the luring has the Belle Trait, and the TARGET has LoS to Madam Sybelle you get the extra movement. The Belle and Madam Sybelle can be on opposite board edges from each other and it still works.

 

The double suit on the bag for sweet murder requires you hit the target with a crow, and have spent a stone before the duel for the extra crow. That ability on the bag is the most worthless ability on the bag, and if you are taking the bag for that ability, you are wasting your stones. The Bag is perhaps the least popular upgrade, and that is the reason for the Jokes, but the bag in certain schemes will win you the game. The best ability on the bag is perhaps the least exciting. The most powerful is the ability to drop scheme markers on a hit, or dmg, I forget the exact wording. This is huge in certain scheme pools. being able to just drop scheme markers in base to base with your target, and not care about the 4" scheme marker restriction, nor the no interacting while engage ability can just foot out win games when you can stone for the suit, and have an attack stat of 7. That, and the ability to not just be an embarrassment in ML, along with the 2" reach are the reason to take the bag.

 

Sinister Reputation isn't as outright powerful, with the current model pool, but it is more popular, and here's why I think it is. It's passive. To use the bag Seamus has to spend an AP and be within 2" of the target. It's not as useful all the time. With Sinister Reputation you don't have to do anything active with Seamus. He just need's to stand there, and in so doing makes everything in 6" and LoS weaker to WP. That makes for a great ability for crew synergy, and makes Seamus useful even if he's paralyzed. Paralyze bag Seamus and he loses value from his investment in the bag. Paralyze Sinister Rep Seamus, and while he's sad, he still goes right on making it easier for his crew to smack you with Undress, Shriek, Take your meads, The Fear Behind the eyes, Lecture Notes, Gnawing Fear, the attacks from a Shikome if you have adversary, or passing any Terror Check while in the aura. It always feels useful and is fun, as opposed to something you might use once, maybe twice in a game, even if it wins you the game.

 

Seamus, in a competitive sense, I would rate as high mid tier/ low high tier. He has a lot going for him, but he can be shut down, unlike other masters. You can't shut Molly or Nicodem down unless you kill them. Their best abilities work whether you are in combat with them or not, and to some extent, their ability to operate is large. Seamus has some limitations. Using his Back Ally can be tough, depending on terrain, and abilities you enemy has, which necessitates taking Red Chapel Killer, and getting corpses near him, and giving up on his summon. He doesn't have a 0 action that on its own is useful all the time. Molly, through her limited upgrades, has an ability to give an AP to a model at 10" every turn. Lilith can use her trees every turn that she wants, and so on. Seamus needs a corpse close by to use either of his 0s, and each one is specific. You have to want to move to utilize red chapel killer, which you don't always want to, and you need to have a 9+ of crows or 9+ with a stone, and a corpse in order to use arise my sweet. These don't occur every turn, so there will be occasional turns where you don't use a 0 action which to me is not ideal.

 

Additionally his best attack action, his gun, can get fouled up, relatively easily. If Seamus is in Ml he can't use it, and while he can get out via the Bored Now trigger, or being Lured, to taken the Lead, it's still more AP from something that has to be spent in order to utilize it, and he has no ability to get the close Icon on his gun, in the way Ophelia or Jakob do. The Ressers also don't have any ability to allow them to fire into combat without randomizing, so models that want to be protected From Seamus' gun can simply try to make it into combat with your own crew, and that allows them some protection, because Seamus can only fire his gun once a turn, and if it randomizes onto his own crew its really bad, because it's high min dmg, and will wipe out half a belles HP in one go, and then he can't fire it again. This isn't to say Seamus is bad or weak, because he isn't, but you have to play him more carefully, and your opponent can do things that will pull a lot of the fangs from his threat. He's good, and can and has won major tournaments, well one I know of, but he isn't Leveticus or Colette level competitive if we are looking at the just the most powerful a master can get. 

[benjoewoo]

How much does Yin cost SS wise? I see she's $11 online mostly, and want to see what kind of line up I might generate in certain games.

 

E.g.

 

Seamus

Sinister Rep

Mad Haberdasher

red chapel killer

 

Sybelle

Not to Banged Up

 

CCK

 

Yin

 

2x Belle

1x Nurse

 

It seems like you'd want at least 2 belles so that pounce means anything, but the belles and nurses are 5 each, Sybell is 8, CCK is 3, 4 for the upgrades, so that's 30 without Yin in there.

[Dirial]

Yin is 8 SS. There is a crew creator in the M2E part of this site.

Yes, you want 2 Belles but not for Pounce. Take Pounce as a bonus. Don't try to make it happen.