Collete and prompt

[Shadowfane]

But the point you seem to be missing is..... Why should we HAVE to make arguments to support prompt in it's current format?

 

You said yourself that Colette is NOT busted.... with that in mind, what exactly is the problem with prompt? I mean, SOMEONE has to have the best AP transfer/manipulation ability in the game, and in your opinion (and zfiends, but lets be honest, no-one cares about his opinion ) that happens to be prompt; but if Colette as a whole is not a busted master, then prompt being "busted" isn't an issue in the slightest....

I have to say, I've been reading this thread all the way through, and so far, my only response has been.... so?

 

*also, what kadeton said, but he said it better than I did *

[Patzer]

Colette is a bit over the top, at least in my book. Trap Doors and Prompt are stupid good. Sure, she got some weaknesses (passive damage, sacrifice attacks, anti-trigger effects), but overall she will wreck most things and get VPs very easily.

[zFiend]

We have discussed Colette some bit with Pantser before and I agree that Colette is a bit over the top for majority of the reasons listed by Pantser. Though I wouldn't count anti-trigger effects to be that much of a boon to her as they can be played around and aren't all that common. 

 

But she does get VP's stupid easy. Prompt makes her one of the best masters in Reckoning (ask Sybarite). Which brings us down to nigh undying master that is one of the best at Reckoning as well as Scheme Marker oriented pools and that is just a stupid good combination to have. As well as denying assassinate pretty much from the get go. So yeah I believe she is a bit over the top, she isn't the only master in the game that is. That's for sure, there are others too. 

[Kadeton]

But she does get VP's stupid easy. Prompt makes her one of the best masters in Reckoning (ask Sybarite). Which brings us down to nigh undying master that is one of the best at Reckoning as well as Scheme Marker oriented pools and that is just a stupid good combination to have. As well as denying assassinate pretty much from the get go. So yeah I believe she is a bit over the top, she isn't the only master in the game that is. That's for sure, there are others too. 

 

Wait... Leveticus is a "he" and the ability is called "Unmaking", not "Prompt". Everything else you said is 100% correct, just make those two adjustments.

[zFiend]

Wait... Leveticus is a "he" and the ability is called "Unmaking", not "Prompt". Everything else you said is 100% correct, just make those two adjustments.

 

I won't argue with you on that.  

[Adran]

If your Benchmark is what is the best way to get the most attacks out of Howard Langstrum,

then Colette comes in joint 2nd, with Hoffman winning (4). (marcus also gets to make 3 extra attacks with Howard, but they all have to be gainst the same target. He does only spend 2ap (and possibly a 0) on doing it, rather than Colettes 3, but without the push, but with his nimble) 

Dreamer can't hire Howard, but gets to make 3 with teddy, with rediculous push efefcts as well (although some of that is native to Teddy).

Collodi gets to make 3 attacks with a corephyee  (but can't make them form a duet), but no movement

He can also make 1 attack with an opponents Howard, but not during his turn, its during Howarsd activation.

Zoraida only gets 1 attack with Obey, but you don't need to hire Howard, your opponent can do that for you.(perdita and Brewmaster likelwise, but need a suit, and Hmelin has the suit) (also 1 AP charges are a thing, she can get a warpig or roster rider to make 3 attacks for her 1 Ap)

Lucius can get 2 extra actions out of a minion, with the possibility of a bonus effect 3/4 of the time. It also moves Lucius and only costs him 2 AP

McCabe gets 2 Ap out of a Minion for the cost of 1 AP. He can also push it and give it nibmle and a decent weapon

Ramos' totem can reactivate 2 constructs, giving it the best AP generation in the game, as thats 3 extra attacks from Howard, plus his nimble, and also 3+ extra attacks from a rail golem!

Levi can make Howard take 3 attacks, but will be hurting him to do so.

Jack Daw can make a model take 3 AP, and then for his 0 action, do one of their actions

Nicodem just gets to summon unslow undead models.

Molly gets to summon models, reactivate them, and make them take an extra 1 action.

 

I've probably missed some options, buth thats a rough guide to extra actions.

Prompt is probably the most consistant of the versitile actions, and its fairly easy to cast, with any other of your models being a valid target.

But the rest of Colettes card doesn't have much to offer to use her AP on.

[Bengt]

Tara could conceivably pull an opponent's Howard out of the void and activate him twice in a turn with her own Reactivate if he started the turn buried and got buried again somewhere in the middle.

 

Edit: she should be able to give him fast as well, so like 2 moves and 8 attacks with flurry.

[Math Mathonwy]

I've probably missed some options, buth thats a rough guide to extra actions.

You forgot the king - Ulix shooting a Pig in the rear and potentially killing the whole enemy crew or at least generating a whole lot of AP.

[zFiend]

You forgot the king - Ulix shooting a Pig in the rear and potentially killing the whole enemy crew or at least generating a whole lot of AP.

 

Like everyone has pretty much stated in this thread Colette is not the only one.. And what can't be made worse, well Gremlins prove us wrong time and time again.

[Justin]

Seriously, you want me to compare Collete to Lucius as total models??

 

 

 

Yes, actually. That is really the only way to effectively balance models.

 

You cannot cherry pick one Ability and say "model Y is broken because it has Action Z, and Action Z is broken." That's not how the game is played, that's not how models are taken. As an example, the Executioner's Claws are an amazing Attack Action for a non-Master model, yet he is considered sub-par due to his movement and relative cost.

 

Now, I am in no way making any statements about Colette or Prompt. Just what would be an effective argument to convince me, as a designer, that Colette is too strong. To convince me you would need to do two things:

 

1) Compare her, as a whole (including available crew, upgrades, and all actions/abilities) to an entire other Master or, preferably, Masters.

 

2) Make sure those Masters you were comparing her to were Masters you considered to be top tier, very strong Masters, not ones you felt were weak. (I'm not going to tell you which Masters I consider top tier, and all wargames have tiers, but most people here can likely make a decent guess. The Master doesn't need to have an obey/prompt type effect).

 

Also, I'm not going to lie, before even considering anything like errata there needs to be a significant amount of time with the models in the wild, so to speak. And the results need to come up again and again. So, no, I'm not thinking about making an errata to Colette right now. Just trying to help make the discussion more productive. 

 

Carry on.

[Uktena]

When I run out of really desirable Prompt targets my activations with Colette become decidedly minion-level. If there's no great AP Sink for me due to bad placement or opponent skullduggery (pine boxes, Tara's stupid map holes, pigapult related injury, etc.) Then Colette is still good, but prompt is less interesting to spam.

[Blaze]

If your Benchmark is what is the best way to get the most attacks out of Howard Langstrum,

then Colette comes in joint 2nd, with Hoffman winning (4). (marcus also gets to make 3 extra attacks with Howard, but they all have to be gainst the same target. He does only spend 2ap (and possibly a 0) on doing it, rather than Colettes 3, but without the push, but with his nimble)

Dreamer can't hire Howard, but gets to make 3 with teddy, with rediculous push efefcts as well (although some of that is native to Teddy).

Collodi gets to make 3 attacks with a corephyee (but can't make them form a duet), but no movement

He can also make 1 attack with an opponents Howard, but not during his turn, its during Howarsd activation.

Zoraida only gets 1 attack with Obey, but you don't need to hire Howard, your opponent can do that for you.(perdita and Brewmaster likelwise, but need a suit, and Hmelin has the suit) (also 1 AP charges are a thing, she can get a warpig or roster rider to make 3 attacks for her 1 Ap)

Lucius can get 2 extra actions out of a minion, with the possibility of a bonus effect 3/4 of the time. It also moves Lucius and only costs him 2 AP

McCabe gets 2 Ap out of a Minion for the cost of 1 AP. He can also push it and give it nibmle and a decent weapon

Ramos' totem can reactivate 2 constructs, giving it the best AP generation in the game, as thats 3 extra attacks from Howard, plus his nimble, and also 3+ extra attacks from a rail golem!

Levi can make Howard take 3 attacks, but will be hurting him to do so.

Jack Daw can make a model take 3 AP, and then for his 0 action, do one of their actions

Nicodem just gets to summon unslow undead models.

Molly gets to summon models, reactivate them, and make them take an extra 1 action.

I've probably missed some options, buth thats a rough guide to extra actions.

Prompt is probably the most consistant of the versitile actions, and its fairly easy to cast, with any other of your models being a valid target.

But the rest of Colettes card doesn't have much to offer to use her AP on.

This is a fantastic run down of masters!

As I stated earlier as well, a fast Hoffman, giving a peacekeeper 4 extra actions, with a possible push if you want it, or even making it fast is serious business. It can turn all your best laid out plans into ruins very quickly.

Yes, actually. That is really the only way to effectively balance models.

You cannot cherry pick one Ability and say "model Y is broken because it has Action Z, and Action Z is broken." That's not how the game is played, that's not how models are taken. As an example, the Executioner's Claws are an amazing Attack Action for a non-Master model, yet he is considered sub-par due to his movement and relative cost.

Now, I am in no way making any statements about Colette or Prompt. Just what would be an effective argument to convince me, as a designer, that Colette is too strong. To convince me you would need to do two things:

1) Compare her, as a whole (including available crew, upgrades, and all actions/abilities) to an entire other Master or, preferably, Masters.

2) Make sure those Masters you were comparing her to were Masters you considered to be top tier, very strong Masters, not ones you felt were weak. (I'm not going to tell you which Masters I consider top tier, and all wargames have tiers, but most people here can likely make a decent guess. The Master doesn't need to have an obey/prompt type effect).

Also, I'm not going to lie, before even considering anything like errata there needs to be a significant amount of time with the models in the wild, so to speak. And the results need to come up again and again. So, no, I'm not thinking about making an errata to Colette right now. Just trying to help make the discussion more productive.

Carry on.

I also agree with this wholeheartedly. The crew and masters must be compared as a whole. You cannot pinpoint one ability and say its broken, if thats the case every master could be considered broken as they all have a unique ability.

If you really want to label something broken, look at the Gremlin faction.

Colette does not need to be errated (and not because I play her). She is fine as she is. Yes I have won all but 1 game with her, however not all of those games have been cake walks. Most of my opponents tend to overlook prompt (because that is what Colette does) and focus on Cassy and the dangerously amazing Duet.

[Carcosa]

@ Justin

 

I am willing to take that challenge, how many Masters would it take to make my case?

[katadder]

@ Justin

 

I am willing to take that challenge, how many Masters would it take to make my case?

 

you could probably make a good case for lots of the masters though if you really wanted to, raspy, pandora, perdita, hoffman, collodi, lilith etc etc the list goes on

[Justin]

@ Justin

 

I am willing to take that challenge, how many Masters would it take to make my case?

 

As I said, not looking to errata anything, so don't expect victory to accomplish much at the moment. But it would greatly strengthen your arguments.

 

Let's say three, but I choose:

 

Leveticus

Collodi

Ramos

 

Also, to anyone who would read into my choices too much; I am not saying the three masters are over powered. I chose them all for a very specific reason:

 

Leveticus: the forums keep saying he is overpowered.

Collodi: An AP manipulation Master in similar style to Colette (the similarities should make for interesting comparisons) who is also very powerful.

Ramos: A very solid all-around Master who shares a Faction (and therefore model pool) with Colette (again, making interesting comparisons).

 

Expect people who know these Masters really well to try to poke holes in your arguments, so think them through.

 

And... go!

[zFiend]

Wow. That is pretty damn cool Justin took part in this conversation.

[Justin]

Wow. That is pretty damn cool Justin took part in this conversation.

 

I DESCENDED FROM THE HEAVENS ON MY FLAMING STEED AND PARTOOK OF YOUR MORTAL CONCERNS

 

 

...you just can't see the flaming steed cause, you know, internet.

 

 

...I'm eating soup out of a can and all the lights are off.

[zFiend]

...I'm eating soup out of a can and all the lights are off.

A true Rezzer works in the dark. Even if it's soup.

[Dirial]

@ Justin

 

I am willing to take that challenge, how many Masters would it take to make my case?

 

The case of "Colette is okay, but Prompt feels wonky while not making her OP"? Not very many, I suppose.

 

I DESCENDED FROM THE HEAVENS ON MY FLAMING STEED AND PARTOOK OF YOUR MORTAL CONCERNS

 

 

...you just can't see the flaming steed cause, you know, internet.

 

 

...I'm eating soup out of a can and all the lights are off.

 

Good thing your flaming steed illuminates the room?

[Carcosa]

@ Justin

 

Ok, I accept that it may change no ones mind, and I accept that people will pick it apart. I will read nothing into your choices and treat it as a blank slate.

 

I guess I have some work to do

[Breng77]

The way I look at Colette she has 3 things going for her.

1.). Prompt: one of the best obey style actions in the game.

2.) 0 cost interact aura, powerful tool for sheme generation.

3.)powerful defensive triggers

The rest of her abilities are middling or situational.

Is she a powerful master, yes.

Is she way better than other powerful masters, not at all. I feel she is relatively average in some strategies.

[zFiend]

I feel she is relatively average in some strategies.

 

Relatively average? What are those strategies? 

[Dirial]

Relatively average? What are those strategies? 

 

Relatively average in Reconnoitre compared to Nicodem, Dreamer and Ramos?

[Patzer]

The way I look at Colette she has 3 things going for her.

1.). Prompt: one of the best obey style actions in the game.

2.) 0 cost interact aura, powerful tool for sheme generation.

3.)powerful defensive triggers

The rest of her abilities are middling or situational.

Trap Doors might be situational, but broken in those situations. I am referring to that Colette (or Cassandra, doesn't even take up a upgrade slot for the master...) can send an insignificant peon, that is the Doves (who she can summon), up to 20" a turn (they are flying so terrain will not be an obstacle), then Cas or Col will activate, have the Dove place a marker (for breakthrough, power ritual, plant evidence, A Line in the Sand, Protect territory). This is very, very, very, hard to stop, even if you know its coming, for a number of reasons.

 

I have problems with Prompt too, but Trap Doors is just over the top for me.

 

[zFiend]

Relatively average in Reconnoitre compared to Nicodem, Dreamer and Ramos?

This is exactly what I'm thinking and no way in hell can that be considered a weakness.. Relatively average, if that's the worst that can be said of Colette, hot damn.