Collete and prompt

[Csonti]

No, it's because the Hoff can't influence most of the table while doing his thing. He isn't dropping Scheme Markers all over the place with great mobility and all that like the Showgirls...because.............Hoff-ball is a thing. 

 

There are also other, more direct factors that make this comparision quite fragile.

 

Range: 10 vs 6 (and Colette is much more mobile anyway)

Target: Any friendly vs friendly Constructs (so while Hoff must stick to Constructs, Colette can Prompt say Johan just as easily as a Duet or Howard Langston) 

Effect: 3" push and then a (1) Action vs a (1) Action that can't declare triggers and maybe also a 2" push if you get the trigger

These things put the two actions not in the same league in my book. Not even close.

[Guardian]

The way I would deal with a colette crew is to pinpoint my biggest threat (not colette) and throw everything at it. Since I see colette as an amplifier of which ever model seems to be the biggest threat for an enemy crew.

[zFiend]

There are also other, more direct factors that make this comparision quite fragile.

Range: 10 vs 6 (and Colette is much more mobile anyway)

Target: Any friendly vs friendly Constructs (so while Hoff must stick to Constructs, Colette can Prompt say Johan just as easily as a Duet or Howard Langston)

Effect: 3" push and then a (1) Action vs a (1) Action that can't declare triggers and maybe also a 2" push if you get the trigger

These things put the two actions not in the same league in my book. Not even close.

Yup. Not even close.

[Dirial]

For those who think Prompt is so much better than Obey, don't you ever Obey enemy models? I mean sure the bulk of Obeys will be on friendly models since it has a higher success chance, but occasionally messing up the opponent's placement (either for VP or to break synergies) is a powerful tool to have.

Obey is a way better attack, but a worse support action. Thus, it's difficult to compare the two. In comparison with other suport actions, though, Prompt is top tier.

[Durza]

There are also other, more direct factors that make this comparision quite fragile.

 

Range: 10 vs 6 (and Colette is much more mobile anyway)

Target: Any friendly vs friendly Constructs (so while Hoff must stick to Constructs, Colette can Prompt say Johan just as easily as a Duet or Howard Langston) 

Effect: 3" push and then a (1) Action vs a (1) Action that can't declare triggers and maybe also a 2" push if you get the trigger

These things put the two actions not in the same league in my book. Not even close.

 

He can also hand out fast on a trigger for 2 damage, so If he uses it on 4 different constructs he can possibly turn it into an extra 4 ap.

 

But I would agree prompt is better.

[Carcosa]

@ Blaze

 

Nononono, you are misunderstanding me here dude!!

I am not ripping on you, nor did I complain about your crew (I even thought I made it clear enough I was not).

My comments are strictly limited to -Colette's Propmt-, no more.

I know you agree it is "fractured", I merely go the step further to say that -as the ability stands right now- it goes beyond fractured. Having no restrictions, a good range, a reliably flip-able target number and no drawback for failure, well, that's not "fractured".

 

It's part of the game, and I doubt (severely doubt) that she will receive any errata or anything, but I do think that it is a discussion worth having on the forums of a game that values input from the players.

 

I made mistakes in that game, more than the 2 we discussed at the end of the game when I sit back and look at it, and they were very much my bad, and I don't want this to sound like I am trying to deflect my mistakes. I made some bad choices in crew composition, and I wasted some stones because of that. I also made some bad tactical decisions, and I will admit that as well.

What I won't do is say that the -only- thing I had a problem with is just me pissing and moaning about Colette, especially when I have seen not one person defend it as a balanced ability -in the arcanist forum-

 

Still looking forward to our next game, no matter who you take, and I hope it does not take as long for the next one Brother!  

[Kadeton]

What I won't do is say that the -only- thing I had a problem with is just me pissing and moaning about Collete, especially when I have seen not one person defend it as a balanced ability -in the arcanist forum-

 

I don't think you can talk about a single ability or action being balanced in isolation. Is Prompt a powerful ability? Absolutely. Is it better than, say, Machine Puppet? Probably. Does that mean Colette is a better Master than Hoffman? Now you're in dangerous territory. Every model is a complete package whose worth can't be measured by looking at any one aspect.

 

I think Colette is a balanced Master. Every Master has (or should have) at least one thing they can do that makes you go "Damn, that's some grade-A filth right there." If Colette starts tearing up the tournament scene in the same way that Nicodem, Dreamer and Leveticus do, then I'll reconsider.

 

(In fairness, I would have preferred Prompt to be restricted to Minions and Showgirls, purely on a thematic basis. I believe one of Justin's aims in M2E was to break down some of the more restrictive thematic barriers, and this is a symptom of that approach.)

[Carcosa]

No, I utterly reject this line of reasoning because I am -not- looking at Colette's ability in any kind of isolation. I invite everyone to compare Prompt to any other master based form of giving out their AP's and compare them as a group, Be it Prompt, Commanding presence, Obey, A new thread, etc etc. All of them have a restriction on targeting, this is a fact I will not argue, but I -will- argue that prompt is uniquely permissive in choice of targets, and it is a point that; again, no one has even tried to make an argument against, and has done quite the opposite in fact, even you!!

 

I don't mind some A-grade filth, go for it, it just makes me want to plot and plan more and try again, but there is filth, and there is busted. When even your critics are scrambling to point out that some thing is not "broken", just "fractured", you know even they cannot say "it's all good man" with a straight face.  

[zFiend]

[Bengt]

No, I utterly reject this line of reasoning because I am -not- looking at Colette's ability in any kind of isolation. I invite everyone to compare Prompt to any other master based form of giving out their AP's and compare them as a group, Be it Prompt, Commanding presence, Obey, A new thread, etc etc. All of them have a restriction on targeting, this is a fact I will not argue, but I -will- argue that prompt is uniquely permissive in choice of targets, and it is a point that; again, no one has even tried to make an argument against, and has done quite the opposite in fact, even you!!

 

I don't mind some A-grade filth, go for it, it just makes me want to plot and plan more and try again, but there is filth, and there is busted. When even your critics are scrambling to point out that some thing is not "broken", just "fractured", you know even they cannot say "it's all good man" with a straight face.

When people talk about not isolating things they mean that you should compare all of Colette's Talents to some other Master. Not one of Colette's Talents to one of another Master's talents.

 

And really, Prompt is more restricted than Obey, you can only use it on about half the models on the field, Obey can be used on everyone but the Leader.

[Carcosa]

Seriously, you want me to compare Colette to Lucius as total models??

 

I know who is gonna look worse in that comparison

 

As for Obey Vs Prompt, Yes, I can Obey -anyone bar a master- with it, it's bloody great!! I can make you nutpunch yourself -ONCE PER TURN with a certain model-!!!

But I can make Howard Langston, or the Duet, or any other heavy hitter in the arcanist arsenal move 3" as a push (so I can get out of engagements) and tear you 3 new holes, and I don't even have to worry about it being interrupted, because even if the model involved stops, it is not them doing the lifting to a degree, it is the master.

 

Believe me dude, I am not looking at this in a vacuum. I -am- talking about it in a vaccum to a degree however, sure.

[Adran]

Prompt does not have the largest range of models it can effect. Obey does that. (any non leader model it hasn't already obeyed to make an attack)

Prompt is not the easiest to achieve, My will does that.

Prompt possibly has one of the most versitile effects, but not the largest effect. Empty night gives a 6" push and a Ml. Commanding  presence gives a (1) action and eitehr an interact, focus or defensive stance for free (on trigger).

 

But I will admit the relative cheapness, versitillty, target choice and effect is a pretty heady combination. Is it the best? thats possibly based on personal preference.

 

I would certainly say if Colette doesn't have a good prompt target, she is probably going to have a rubbish turn. Disrupt magic is something that would worry during my turn, even though less than 25% of the deck would cause me to fail.

[Kadeton]

No, I utterly reject this line of reasoning because I am -not- looking at Collete's ability in any kind of isolation. I invite everyone to compare Prompt to any other master based form of giving out their AP's and compare them as a group, Be it Prompt, Commanding presence, Obey, A new thread, etc etc. All of them have a restriction on targeting, this is a fact I will not argue, but I -will- argue that prompt is uniquely permissive in choice of targets, and it is a point that; again, no one has even tried to make an argument against, and has done quite the opposite in fact, even you!!

 

As Bengt says, that's not what I mean by isolation. You need to compare Colette to Zoraida (for example), not Prompt to Obey. A "busted" ability does not a "busted" Master make. There are plenty of abilities that are properly ridiculously powerful - Manifest Nightmares for example, or Expunge, or Pull the Strings, or Freeze Over, or Channel, or whatever "that ability" is on the Master you last faced - but the game is still incredibly tightly balanced. Prompt is crazy strong, but in my experience, Colette isn't unbalanced.

[Carcosa]

Oh come on, you can't get past your first sentence without having to deal with the inbuilt limit of Obey!!

Obey says make an attack, Prompt gives you a 3" push and an AP, so you can attack, support, drop schemes, whatever.

YES, Lucius can give stuff to non austringer minions (restrictions) and even more on a suit (restrictions), hell, he can even burn 3 wounds of someone to get the suit, but even that has two tiers of restrictions!!

 

This is the definition of disingenuous argument, and I don't mean to say people arguing against the notion are disingenuous, because that is patently untrue, but the argument you are employing is!

[Carcosa]

kadeton

 

I never said Colette was busted!!

I never said her crew was busted!!

 

ALL I said that was busted is the lack of restrictions on Prompt in comparison to the other -similar- actions other masters can employ.

[Adran]

Obey says make a (1) action, not make an attack. I can happily Obey the same model 3 times as long as only the 3rd is an attack action.

I would argue that that is still a larger model pool. Its a less versitile action, but has a greater number of Targets.

[Kadeton]

I never said Collete was busted!!

I never said her crew was busted!!

 

Oh, fair enough. I'm not sure why you're bringing up Prompt, then - if Colette is fine, then there's no problem. Is there any reason she shouldn't have a "better" AP-manipulation ability than other Masters, if it doesn't unbalance the game?

[Dirial]

Oh, fair enough. I'm not sure why you're bringing up Prompt, then - if Colette is fine, then there's no problem. Is there any reason she shouldn't have a "better" AP-manipulation ability than other Masters, if it doesn't unbalance the game?

 

This is how I feel. I'm not sure what this thread is trying to accomplish. Every time arguments are made for some view, they get washed down until they sound like "I didn't take a stance in either direction, everything is just point of view". This all just sounds like smalltalk. Which is fine, nothing against smalltalk. Just doesn't have any impact.

[zFiend]

if Colette is fine

 

I don't think Colette is fine.

[Kadeton]

I don't think McMourning is fine, but I suspect it's because I haven't worked out how to properly negotiate him yet.

 

I've destroyed plenty of Colettes, though.

[Patzer]

I don't think McMourning is fine, but I suspect it's because I haven't worked out how to properly negotiate him yet.

 

I've destroyed plenty of Colettes, though.

I thought you played Leveticus, Kadeton.

[katadder]

all depends what you want to do I guess.

I have seen hamlin use pipes to send ama no zako all the way across the board then drop oathkeeper to move further and deliver a message, 3pts 1st turn straight away.

have also seen obeys and pipes etc to move people away from protect territory markers, or get your enemys to pick up their own markers etc at the end of a game. this can end up winning as many if not more games than prompt.

 

its all balanced in the end I guess, prompt is useful but depends how you use it

[Kadeton]

Getting off-topic, with apologies to the OP.

 

Leveticus doesn't struggle with McMourning, it's true. (Or Colette.) It's when I try to play outside my comfort zone that Doug scares the pants off me.

 

(I really don't think Leveticus is fine, which is why I'm trying to move away from him.)

[Carcosa]

@Dirial

 

The points get "watered down" to a degree, sure because no one wants to sound like an imperious dickhead when trying to get their point across, but the opposition to any point is under no such constraint to do so.

 

The simple fact is, not ONE person has made -any- argument whatsoever to support prompt in it's current format, and everyone who has even tried to do so has admitted it is "fractured", which to me means "yeah, I know it's busted, but hey, that's the rules and there will be no errata, so go suck a lemon"

 

Better yet I f I brought out arguments to support that contention, and used the crew itself and "did not look at it in a vacuum", the argument merely becomes more damning for the crew.

[Kadeton]

The simple fact is, not ONE person has made -any- argument whatsoever to support prompt in it's current format, and everyone who has even tried to do so has admitted it is "fractured", which to me means "yeah, I know it's busted, but hey, that's the rules and there will be no errata, so go suck a lemon"

 

I guess the argument I'm trying to make is that Colette is a powerful, competitive but not unbalanced Master. At that point, there's no need to justify Prompt, because there's nothing wrong with it - it's one of the things that makes Colette powerful and competitive. It's okay that one Master has an ability that's strictly better than another Master's ability that does a similar thing, as long as that Master isn't better at everything the other does.

 

Lady J's Greatsword is a strictly better melee attack than Lilith's Greatsword. Does that mean it's "fractured"?