Ironsides: Hero or Zero?

[Whut]

I'll help get back on topic.

Union Miners are in my opinion almost completely useless, and even more so with Ironsides. They have an average Ml5, an average damage track of 1/3/5 (more on this later), are extremely squishy with 6 wounds and no defensive abilities, and they're slow.

If you want a brawler at this price point, take a metal gamin. They are super tanky and benefit from HPM with (effectively) a 3/4/5 damage track, as well as being very fast and doing free damage when constructs are around. If you need to ignore Df triggers, then take Joss.

Their gun is more than often a waste of time. If you want burning, then take Firestarter.

Their one unique action, false claim, is actually okay. But they are slow so can't really be scheme running, and can't take it while engaged, so can't use it for Lits while brawling it out. Plus placing the two markers actually helps you opponent have an easier time removing them. If you want easier scheming, take a showgirl with Practiced Production, or a SS miner (who is actually a better combatant than Union Miners too)

Their last unique thing is Companion, which might help you burst something down, but lots of the time they will use it once before they die I'd you try that.

Idk, I just don't see it.

As for Willie, I think he's fantastic but I haven't used him yet. Especially with Ironsides, he becomes a damage dealing machine, and will likely be target number 1 before long.

[Parker Barrows]

Jack Daw uses the majority of the Resser Faction

Levi takes nearly every model in the game

Hamelin takes from multiple other factions, as does Marcus, Zoraida, etc

I think it's not much of s problem

 

Oh. I meant that I don't necessarily see an Academic Master as Arcanist since others have them too. I'd definitely want to run Oxfordian Maged, Sanctioned Spellcasters, and the Students in the same Crew.

 

 

I always think of them as an alpha pair, in the way that most pack structures have. I don't think Myranda is a pushover. 

Perhaps we have different impressions of his methods, but I don't see him as a scientist. He's a spiritualist and mystic, and that type of study tends to be far more directed by introspection and solitary contemplation, which wouldn't greatly benefit from having a research team. I get the sense that Marcus already has a complete and intuitive knowledge of anatomy and biology - there's no more research for him to do in scientific areas.

 

But he is a scientist. He's even McMourning's teacher. I dunno if he has a "research team"* but he his has a basis in scientific learning of biology and anatomy pre-entering the Breach.

 

It's been forever since I read a Marcus story, so no idea if he turned spiritualist after. But I definitely take the "he's a scientist" characterization.

 

*Like I said, I would guess the "Order of Chimera" is made up of multiple "packs." It seems a bit pompous to declare two people an "order."

 

 

I really don't like the idea of a Gamin Master, each Gamin is tied to an existing Master in the fluff. Kaeris Fire, Mei Feng Metal, Rasputine Ice, we don't know if Wind Gamin will be connected to anyone, but since they are not really Gamin anyway I don't care. To make someone new "better" at the respective Gamin than their creators I think would diminish the existing fluff.

 

Not necessarily better, but the ability to summon and interact differently with them. It's fairly common. Molly has Belles and Spirits. Ironsides boosts MS&U.

 

 

Talk about spiraling on to a tangent and never coming off of it.

I am opposed to another dual faction guild, neverborn, or resur as they already have 3 and I feel anymore would hinder there faction feel even more than it is.

Dual faction masters I believe harms the feel of factions, Example: Lucius with a lawyer, Dashel, 2 guild riflemen, as the base for a neverborn crew is really guild with a purple label to it and I believe does more harm than good. This is not to say that this is always the case, I once played with Lucius and only 1 lawyer and his totem with the rest being in faction in a neverborn game and yes he was fun, but dual masters seem to be ripe for harming faction feel, identity crisis (mostly a 10 Thunder issue) or really just belonging to 1 faction more than the other.

 

Identity crisis in this case is where you take a crew and it could be part of either faction, Example is McCabe going dog and wastrel heavy.

 

Eh. I find it more flavorful. The Dual Faction Masters have multiple loyalties. Mcmourning having a couple Lawyers on loan from Lucius is pretty cool. Kang might not follow the Arcanists, but he will follow Mei Feng. I could go on.

 

The only ones it kinda bothers me is the ones who haven't really been shown as part of their other faction. The ones that come to immediate mind is Tara and Yan Lo. I understand why they are Rezzers, but it would be nice to see a story of them acting as such (interacting with other Rezzers Masters for example). Not all dead raising people are Rezzers after all (ie Leveticus). I want to see them as part of the group.

[D_acolyte]

 If you need to ignore Df triggers, then take Joss.

 

Like Joss needs a reason to be taken or anyone to make him better.

Though now that i think about it Hand Pick Men works on constructs right? If so the Large Arachnid or Soul Stone Miner would be good.

[Dirial]

 

It seems a bit pompous to declare two people an "order."

 

Arcanists pompous? Nah.

[Ampers&nd]

on the Union Miners thing- they work well in Headhunter, have them close to a beater or two, beat face and then companion out and collect the head afterwards with the miner. they have some other more tactical uses (dropping two schemes at once that you can use for shiny things like the performers ability etc) but in general I'd agree that there are better ways to spend the SS

[zFiend]

I remember a lot of people saying ironsides is underpowered but what I'm reading here it doesn't seem to be the case.

[Adran]

I'll help get back on topic.

Union Miners are in my opinion almost completely useless, and even more so with Ironsides. They have an average Ml5, an average damage track of 1/3/5 (more on this later), are extremely squishy with 6 wounds and no defensive abilities, and they're slow.

If you want a brawler at this price point, take a metal gamin. They are super tanky and benefit from HPM with (effectively) a 3/4/5 damage track, as well as being very fast and doing free damage when constructs are around. If you need to ignore Df triggers, then take Joss.

Their gun is more than often a waste of time. If you want burning, then take Firestarter.

Their one unique action, false claim, is actually okay. But they are slow so can't really be scheme running, and can't take it while engaged, so can't use it for Lits while brawling it out. Plus placing the two markers actually helps you opponent have an easier time removing them. If you want easier scheming, take a showgirl with Practiced Production, or a SS miner (who is actually a better combatant than Union Miners too)

Their last unique thing is Companion, which might help you burst something down, but lots of the time they will use it once before they die I'd you try that.

 

 

I beg to differ, Union miners are one of the fastest scheme runners in the game. For a given value of fast.

And this is because they don't need to move between their scheme marker dropping, so they can happily drop 2 scheme markers a turn.

 

Whilst they don't have a great way to disengage (such as leap), most scheme runners don't. I'll agree that they won't do power ritual as fast as a cruligan, but they will do protect territory or breakthrough or line in the sand much faster. I don't think there is anything in the game that will do line in the sand quicker than a union miner. Or Protect territory.

 

If they are left alone they will sucessfully score unannounced breakthrough and protect territory for 6 points all for 1 5ss model.

 

 

And I like their gun. It's the cheapest way to set fire to your own models wihout harming them, which is great for Kaeris.

 

 

I've just finished paiting up my Ironsides crew, so I'm hoping to try her out tomorrow, and will coem back with any views.

[Jordon]

I remember a lot of people saying ironsides is underpowered but what I'm reading here it doesn't seem to be the case.

 

I wouldn't say she's under or over powered. I will say that she can be misleading and during the beta I think people were trying to wedge her into a role she's not necessarily designed for. 

 

I've gotten her on the table a few times over the past few weeks and I can tell you she's rarely lived to see the end of the game. That doesn't mean she performed terribly or anything. On the contrary she diverted so much of the opponents AP that it really left the opponent scrambling to catch up.

 

I'll usually get one good turn to use all of my stored adrenaline and cause some serious damage, but she doesn't often live long after that point. She's been challenging, but a lot of fun to play.

[joediamond]

It was beginner's luck, but I very much enjoyed my first non-proxy game with Ironsides this weekend versus my friend's Marcus crew.  (I barely won 7-6, if that matters)

 

Highlights of the game were Toni single-handedly dropping a Rogue Necromancy on turn 2, then a Dawn Serpent on turn 3, while tanking Marcus for two turns.  Lucky?  Yes, but still freaking awesome.

 

I am certainly excited to play more games with her, but I've been waiting for a proper M&SU master since I started playing, so I'm super biased.  I won't comment too much until I have more experience to draw from.

[TychoTerziev]

 Sorry for the dumb question, but how does the adrenaline condition works when it comes to healing? Do you heal only one and lower the condition by one, or you heal equal to the condition and practically remove it?

[Adran]

 

 

 

It heals exactly one and lowers the condition by 1. One of her upgrades removes the whole condition and heals the amount removed (as a 0 action)

[TychoTerziev]

10x!

[Fog]

I've always run her with Mouse and Johana so there's been plenty of opportunity to keep her topped off. I've never even taken the healing upgrade.

[Clockwork_Fish]

I kind of want to try running her with Burt Jebsen.  True, he gets no benefit from hand picked men, but he can pass attacks on to Ironsides using slippery, and crackerjack timing can be used to help pull enemies into melee with her.

[Fog]

That sounds very interesting...

I just ran into a new bit of trouble with Ironsides:  The Emissary.

 

I want to use it with her, I really do, but it's 10 points, doesn't benefit from HPM, and my list already feels like I'm bringing too many high cost models.  Once you fall too far into the hole with activations it can be tricky to dig yourself out.  If I start with Her, the Captain, the Emissary and a lone mage I'm looking at 26 points before upgrades and I've hired three models.  If I put in a pair of gunsmiths I'm full and only looking at six models (and I've personally found mages to be wanting, but condition immunity is pretty bonkers).  At that point, I've dropped all my healing and only bring six bodies.  It got me hammered in the Avatar finals when I ran into Perdita and seven friends on a table without any blocking.

I could drop the gunsmiths (or A gunsmith) but at that point I'm feeling like the list wants to ball up too tightly.  I really enjoy that they can reach out and touch someone so that even if I end up keeping a little bit too close together I can threaten a big 32" oval.  I also found that without mouse in that list to 'turn them on,' the gunsmiths weren't coming close to pulling their weight.  Maybe I was spoiled by HPM, but t running them without it feels like an entirely different piece.

So do I just drop the emissary?  I really want to find a use for it, but I don't like it with the majority of the masters I play.  The Ironsides upgrade seems playable (the adrenaline is cute, but the 0 is what wins me over) but it's 10 stones that doesn't benefit from HPM, has a weak damage of 2 and can be largely ignored by my enemy.  I was really, really looking forward to it's release but now I've gone completely lukewarm.

[Fog]

In fact, I feel that if I ran my traditional Ironsides list at GenCon (Captain, Mage, 2x Gunsmiths, Mouse, Johanna) I would have fared considerably better.  The extra healing could have made an incredible difference.  

[retnab]

So I picked up Ironsides yesterday and was thinking of things to bring with her.  She has Mouse for heals and her own heals as needed so I figured Johan would be a bit redundant but conditions can still be a pain.  Would people consider bringing the Arcane Effigy with her?  Fire fists and condition removal sounds pretty nice.

[joediamond]

So I picked up Ironsides yesterday and was thinking of things to bring with her.  She has Mouse for heals and her own heals as needed so I figured Johan would be a bit redundant but conditions can still be a pain.  Would people consider bringing the Arcane Effigy with her?  Fire fists and condition removal sounds pretty nice.

 

More condition removal is never bad.  It's better with Mei Feng, I think, but the sheer number of attacks you can get with Ironsides can make that burning start to add up.  And her pushing in between extra attacks means you can spread burning over multiple models.  And while Ironsides is locking down everything in melee, you have a nice 4ss significant model to run about 6-8" away and do schemes.

 

Plus M&SU models like the Firestarter or Gunsmiths can really make use of the burning.

 

In my opinion, not an auto include, but certainly an option, specifically if you want more damage output from Ironsides.

[Jordon]

While condition removal is not something pivotal to a "typical" ironsides crew, its never someone you can have too much of. However I usually just rely on Johan and the blood ward to cover most of my condition removal needs. 

 

Burning is pretty sweet though. Especially on a model that can generate extra AP as reliably as ironsides.