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Ironsides: Hero or Zero?


E.T.A. Hoffman

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Took second place tonight at the qualifier at CaptainCon tonight using Toni 3/4 rounds.

She's super legit guys.

My Ironsides box is in the mail, so this gives me hope for when I start playing her more frequently (only had a handful of proxy game so far).  I am firmly in the "looks like a zero, plays like a hero" camp.

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1st

Played against Raspy and I was amazed at how much Toni turns on gunsmiths. Put down an ice golem without much trouble and between two of them she never got a clear shot at anything. You can basically ignore cover and can cheat almost anything. It was headhunter and anything relevant on the opponents side was stuck on Toni so he was only able to pick up one VP

3rd

Seamus *couldn't* get away from her even with belles. So much movement control, and I killed him well before he could get entourage off. I feel like she's great versus ressers. You're immune to belles and can vacuum up scheme runners all day. It was collect the bounty, and it was a mean match. Lost in the end because flank deployment is an absurdly huge stretch of land and "at least six inches" means halfway across the board.

4th

Last match was against McMourning (he was expecting Ramos and armor spam). Immunity to conditions, hard to kill on almost everything, and every model he brings is low def means once again, Toni keeps things stupid. It was reckoning, and I had the match firmly in hand throughout. Gunsmiths were mvps again, and they kept me scoring. At the end of turn 4, my opponent declared bodyguard on Rafkin, who was around 24" away and behind a wall. Between the captain and Toni I was able to reposition a gunsmith across 2/3s the board and still get two shots on Rafkin, but I left him on one wound.

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I managed 4/0/1 at Deliverence with her, only losing out to Levi in Interference (I was outclassed by my opponent in that game, so I'm not going to blame the strat) came 4th overall with only diff between me and second. I'm terrible at Malifaux so Ironsides is clearly a Hero;) 

 

best moment- Ironsides turning it up to 11 in my first game and taking Mah Tucket from unharmed to dead in one activation:)

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I managed 4/0/1 at Deliverence with her, only losing out to Levi in Interference (I was outclassed by my opponent in that game, so I'm not going to blame the strat) came 4th overall with only diff between me and second. I'm terrible at Malifaux so Ironsides is clearly a Hero;) 

I'm really curious what metric you are using to decide that you are terrible at Malifaux if you are winning most of your games.

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I find most look at a combination of that makes the master "broken" or at least powerful. They fail to look at the skill need with a master or how good other masters are in there comparison. For instance, many people I know hold Ramos up as the best Arcanists master but I actual find him more bland because he tends to be ran one way, it is a strong way but that does not make him the best to me, I prefer Kaeris, Mei or Collet.

 

Another basses on ranking is when people say "if only this was ___________", which is just them saying that they rather play that master and they take it as who is better.

 

Master ranking is generally a very personal thing.

My big issue with Ironside is that I find her play and how she is built somewhat counter intuitive as the best I have seen her used is as a support master but her actions and mechanics tend to lean her towards a close combat master. In many ways her box would be better with Gunsmiths more than the Mages.

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I find most look at a combination of that makes the master "broken" or at least powerful. They fail to look at the skill need with a master or how good other masters are in there comparison. For instance, many people I know hold Ramos up as the best Arcanists master but I actual find him more bland because he tends to be ran one way, it is a strong way but that does not make him the best to me, I prefer Kaeris, Mei or Collet.

 

Another basses on ranking is when people say "if only this was ___________", which is just them saying that they rather play that master and they take it as who is better.

 

Master ranking is generally a very personal thing.

My big issue with Ironside is that I find her play and how she is built somewhat counter intuitive as the best I have seen her used is as a support master but her actions and mechanics tend to lean her towards a close combat master. In many ways her box would be better with Gunsmiths more than the Mages.

 

I think we would be great friends! :)

 

My opinions mirror your own exactly down to my favorite arcanist masters (for the exact same reasons!) :D

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I definitely agree there. It's not necessarily about who's got the biggest toolbox but rather it's about what you can do with the tools you have.

For example, I was playing McCabe yesterday and I stopped summoning spiders with Ramos and started hunting down scheme runners in my backfield. Instead of lamenting that I couldn't reposition like Colette or charge a mile like Mei, I just made do with the old man. I enjoy him far more than the other summoning masters because he's not spending his whole turn bringing models in. He gets to actually get some work done himself.

And I'm finding the mages are a tough fit for most lists. I find myself bringing one for blood ward (status? Can't keep the names straight). They can't participate in the mid board ugliness as well as the smiths, die to a stiff breeze, and are hurt by the range of 10.

I don't, however, agree that I'd ever call her a close combat master. She's board control and support. It's harder to recognize because instead of pushing models out of position, obeying things to leave engagement or blocking off parts of the board she instead creates a 12" bubble of "move towards Ironsides. Never leave again."

I think the adrenaline is actually a good limiter for her. I've heard people wish that it was easier to generate or that she didn't need it at all. I think she'd be flat out broken if that was the case. Spend one action to pull multiple models in, murder everything you can reach with your triggers before they get to react, end turn. I'm a little afraid of how the emissary is going to interact with her.

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I think we're dawning on the start of a solid "M&SU" set up for set faction events now. Ironsides just seems so flexible with her manoeuvrability, which coupled with her endurance and the increasing pool of plastic, available M&SU minions will give her options across a lot of schemes and strategies. The four M&SU masters have a lot of crew synergy, which Rasputina, Colette and Marcus lack.

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I think we're dawning on the start of a solid "M&SU" set up for set faction events now. Ironsides just seems so flexible with her manoeuvrability, which coupled with her endurance and the increasing pool of plastic, available M&SU minions will give her options across a lot of schemes and strategies. The four M&SU masters have a lot of crew synergy, which Rasputina, Colette and Marcus lack.

 

Actually as the Arcanists go more M&SU the less interested I had in them, I was really hoping way back at the beginning of beta 2 when they went to 7 masters that we would get a second Order of Chimera or Cult of December master but if we get an 8th master hopefully in another 2-3 years we may see some more growth of those elements. I am working on an Order of Chimera Entomologist for a Through the Breach game I am planing to run.

Also as far as M&SU and master synergy, only Ironside I think wants M&SU but I am not sure all the others like what those models do or are (cause fire or constructs).

Next to Gremlins I think that the Arcanist have maintain there feel the best than the other faction.

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Actually as the Arcanists go more M&SU the less interested I had in them, I was really hoping way back at the beginning of beta 2 when they went to 7 masters that we would get a second Order of Chimera or Cult of December master 

I agree with this completely. Fortunately, Marcus is a faction unto himself.

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I think I would have been leery of any further expansion of the Order of the Chimera or the Cult of December, but I had to think about why.

The "Order" is just Marcus and Miranda, and it seems like a pretty exclusive club. I can't see them being particularly welcoming to a new Master - there can only be one king and queen of the jungle. Any other humans joining the Order would, it seems likely, be relegated to subservient pack-member status, and a Master wouldn't fit into that space.

The Cult might be large enough to support another Master, but it's an intensely hierarchical group, with Rasputina as its despot and Snow as her second-in-command. Anyone else would be a political rival, and I can't see Rasputina dealing well with competition.

The Union, in contrast, is a sprawling organisation with many specialised arms, each of which can support its own Master. From that perspective, I can see why we keep getting more M&SU models.

(Incidentally the Theatre is no longer a group I would consider to be entirely part of the Union - they're aligned but not fully integrated, much like the Cult and the Order.)

I would have preferred to see a new Arcanist group entirely (perhaps for Kaeris to break away and form her own Academic-based section), but I'm so happy at the prospect of Ironsides that I don't particularly mind. :P

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Hopefully one day we'll see Raethford become an official member of the arcanists. He's the best of both worlds in that he's both December and a member of the M&SU. Models such as him do a good job bridging the gap between the M&SU and those themes that tend to isolate themselves within the faction. He's also badass and a ton of fun to play ;)

 

Getting back on topic though, I tend to think of Ironsides as an "opportunist" more than trying to peg her as a combat/support master. No doubt her strongest ability (HPM) is a passive support ability, but I feel like her true strength is in her versatility.

 

I always have a level of confidence when fielding her and I feel there are not too many situations that she can't find a way to deal with. She may not hit as hard as Marcus or Mei, but she's by no means a slouch in melee. She also doesn't really offer much to support her crew other than HPM, but wow that one support ability is more than enough for me to theme her whole crew around. She can tank, she can be mobile, she can tar pit and she can hit, all while passively supporting her crew. To me thats the true strength of Ironsides.

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I think I would have been leery of any further expansion of the Order of the Chimera or the Cult of December, but I had to think about why.

The "Order" is just Marcus and Miranda, and it seems like a pretty exclusive club. I can't see them being particularly welcoming to a new Master - there can only be one king and queen of the jungle. Any other humans joining the Order would, it seems likely, be relegated to subservient pack-member status, and a Master wouldn't fit into that space.

 

Meh.....aren't Kaeris and Ironsides both "subservient pack-members" compared to Ramos?

 

I think there's plenty of room. One example; the Order and the Cult could both do a "summoner" type master. The Order could have a Ranger/Bard type master that works from the back and summons beasts. Marcus is a professor, an educator....sure he might be the Alpha, but I could easily see him teaching others. The Cult could easily have someone that summons Ice Gamin and Golems.

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Meh.....aren't Kaeris and Ironsides both "subservient pack-members" compared to Ramos?

Perhaps? I think the difference is that Ramos controls his organisation through manipulation, not force. Marcus and Rasputina seem more likely to kill (and probably eat) those they perceive as threats to their dominion. Ramos, while he would be capable of doing such, instead prefers to make people believe that doing what he tells them is the right thing to do - Kaeris and Ironsides get to feel like they're making their own decisions, which just happen to coincide with what the Union wants. Neither of them wants to lead the Union, but they do get command over their own sections, so everyone's happy.

 

I think there's plenty of room. One example; the Order and the Cult could both do a "summoner" type master. The Order could have a Ranger/Bard type master that works from the back and summons beasts. Marcus is a professor, an educator....sure he might be the Alpha, but I could easily see him teaching others. The Cult could easily have someone that summons Ice Gamin and Golems.

I can definitely see Marcus teaching others, I just can't see those others becoming Masters in their own right. I'd be happy to see some more humans in the Order, from the Enforcer level down. I'm not fond of the idea of summoning most Beasts - where do they come from when they suddenly appear? - but I could definitely get behind someone summoning Molemen and Malifaux Raptors. I'm not sure the game needs more summoning at this point, but it would be very thematic.

It's always been a mystery where the Ice Gamin come from, and it wouldn't be a bad thing to have someone summon them - doesn't Raethford do something like that, or am I misremembering? He's a decent example of how to do an additional Master well, I think - enough thematic similarities to get on well with another theme's stuff, but without stepping over political boundaries.

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It's always been a mystery where the Ice Gamin come from, and it wouldn't be a bad thing to have someone summon them - doesn't Raethford do something like that, or am I misremembering? He's a decent example of how to do an additional Master well, I think - enough thematic similarities to get on well with another theme's stuff, but without stepping over political boundaries.

He does. There are also stories where Rasputina seems to summon them as well, they are basically popping out of snowdrifts ready to do her bidding. Both the graveyard story from the M1E rulebook and her fight with Sonnia in Chronicles 10 has this happen as I recall. I mean sure she could have had them hide there in advance or something, but knowing the general mechanics of Malifaux summoning was what popped into my mind when I read them.

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My best guess is that her summons require advanced preparations, like she needs to get the spell ready to go and loops the energy in her mind. She stacks up as many as she can (about 50ss worth, give or take) and then she unleashes them all simultaneously. She can't just conjure more up, but with sufficient preparation she'll always have a team ready to go.

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Unfortunately, the practicalities of Raethford mean that we'll never see him as a generic Master without significant reworking, as the reason he's as good as he is is due to him only being in that one scenario (there's a post from one of the Staff somewhere basically saying that exact thing).

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Perhaps? I think the difference is that Ramos controls his organisation through manipulation, not force. Marcus and Rasputina seem more likely to kill (and probably eat) those they perceive as threats to their dominion. Ramos, while he would be capable of doing such, instead prefers to make people believe that doing what he tells them is the right thing to do - Kaeris and Ironsides get to feel like they're making their own decisions, which just happen to coincide with what the Union wants. Neither of them wants to lead the Union, but they do get command over their own sections, so everyone's happy.

 

I can definitely see Marcus teaching others, I just can't see those others becoming Masters in their own right. I'd be happy to see some more humans in the Order, from the Enforcer level down. I'm not fond of the idea of summoning most Beasts - where do they come from when they suddenly appear? - but I could definitely get behind someone summoning Molemen and Malifaux Raptors. I'm not sure the game needs more summoning at this point, but it would be very thematic.

I haven't seen anything in the very few fluff pieces we have seen on Marcus that paints him in that kind of picture. He is highly intelligent and if anything seems to welcome some outside conversation....he only embraces the primal when in battle. Ramos may not do the horrible stuff himself, but isn't Johan's and Ironsides' jobs to basically kick the crap out of anyone that doesn't do what Ramos wants? That seems a lot more domineering and controlling to me.

As far as where do the beasts come from.....honestly who cares? When Sonnia blows someone up and out pops a fully trained and equipped Witchling Stalker no one questions it....or Seamus summons one of his lovely Belles from the remains of a Mature Nephilim.

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Ramos may not do the horrible stuff himself, but isn't Johan's and Ironsides' jobs to basically kick the crap out of anyone that doesn't do what Ramos wants? That seems a lot more domineering and controlling to me.

 

Johan is a renegade, but you probably mean Joss.

 

Joss, Ironsides and Kaeris are all basically trusted hammers Ramos applies to any 'issues' that stand in the way of the Union or Arcanist causes.

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It really upsets me that Kaeris's born of Fire upgrade is borderline terrible because something like that is a cool summoning mechanic I think could have been explored more.

Imagine something like McMourning's summoning upgrade on Kaeris, just with some sort of Fire golem (come on Wyrd, it's about time we get one for fire!) instead of a Flesh Construct (balance the golem around 7-8 stones). I can think of so many cool mechanics that could go along with a fire golem.

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