Jack Daw Project

[Seadhna]

Does the Child do anything besides a 2ss activation?

[Rogue1]

I use the child with Jack for a few things:

1. With a high card the child can copy Jack's ability to copy a 1 action.  I use this to copy share guilt from the Guilty.

2. He can use Jack's cast attacks at CA4 with .  Sure it has a  to damage but it can still help.

3. Provides another healing source, not the easiest to use but can come in handy.

[PositronMike]

6 hours ago, Seadhna said:

Does the Child do anything besides a 2ss activation?

For me, generally no although it can be fun to copy Jack's Noose attack if the child ever finds himself engaged. Coming from Gremlins I like having a high number of activations and having 2 ss activation who can annoy enemy models can be very useful. The child can actually cause a few problems to some models if you get the activation order right as if it walks up and engages a model after it has already activated that turn. In subsequent turns the model that is being engaged needs to either walk away which can cost cards due to the on the childs melee attack or kill the child which can be card intensive to get around the manipulative.

[OctaBit]

I agree with @Rogue1. Being able to copy some of jacks abilities is helpful. Mostly the feel their torment ability, but also for suppressed memories on occasion. Between jacks high cast, the attack targeting WP, and the plus flip, the -3 doesn't matter as much. Mostly it's just to get curses out.

 

Also a 2ss activation isn't bad.

[Seadhna]

2 hours ago, OctaBit said:

I agree with @Rogue1. Being able to copy some of jacks abilities is helpful. Mostly the feel their torment ability, but also for suppressed memories on occasion. Between jacks high cast, the attack targeting WP, and the plus flip, the -3 doesn't matter as much. Mostly it's just to get curses out.

 

Also a 2ss activation isn't bad.

You can't attach curses with Child because he didn't have any attached in the beginning.

He also can't copy Jack's (0) actions, sadly

[OctaBit]

Oh yup, you're right. Forgot that bit.

Ya it would be nice if he could use the obey, or driven. He can still copy some neat attacks through feel their torment. Like Johan's relic hammer, or Alice's gun (assuming you make them tormented).

[Seadhna]

Yeah that's a nice clutch option, but I'd rather use that 10 on Jack's own attacks and those 2 ss for damage prevention or plus flips. 

Still, might be fun to copy some Tormented stuff (the best one I see is Greed's 4 damage nuke)

[admiralvorkraft]

Crooked Men are brilliant. I usually run two of them and a Guilty for my 5ss options, then I want a solid beater (usually Sue with Return Fire) and then other models to taste. I don't usually struggle to get to 8 significant activations with a 5-6 stone cache.

[Nukemouse]

They really are lovely aren't they? My favorite use of them is to march up to the center line and contest it, since their ability to paralyze models in melee helps them survive there and their defense against gunlines helps them survive getting there! Finish The Job also makes it okay to lose them in many schemes!

[Virtus]

Do you guys like using Monty against Gremlins? The idea of tarpitting a few Gremlins and choking them to death is appealing, but how is it in practice?

[Nukemouse]

His Terrifying Living is helpful against the horror that is Gremlin guns and brick by brick will help you get around all the troubles caused by bayou two card. That said I've yet to use him against pigs so can't speak to his usefulness there and gremlins have plenty of access to blasts and pulses to get around brick by brick and terrifying. I would recommend using a healer like Sloth or Freikorps Librarian if you plan to use Montresor against gremlins, since they probably wont kill him in one activation.

[apes-ma]

At this point are you guys preferring to play Jack with the tormented theme that supports his crew (using Twist and Turn, Writing Torment and 0+ guilty) or just to just run him as a beater with Oathkeeper, Bigger They Are and 3x curses and then build an independent crew?

Is there a middle ground? I was thinking of trying Bigger They Are, Writhing Torment (for pushes and paralyse protection) and then 3x curses for a strat where Jack might not be nipping away on a solo mission too often.

[Seadhna]

I usually run Bigger they are, 2 curses, Writhing Torment and Scout the Field on Jack

then do a mostly-Tormented crew with Jaakuna, Lust, Johan+Guilty combo, Effigy and whatever else fits to give me a cache of 4-5 (maybe a Nurse, maybe a Sue).

The idea is to use Writhing Torment and Driven by Injustice to get a good position turn 1, then proceed murdering things with Jack and running back for some surprise pushes. Writhing Torment usually pays off as a Paralyze deterrent and as a source of surprise start-of-activation pushes for enemies with Curses on them. 

I'm also going to try this schemey list where Jack runs off to do a wee bit o'murder the rest of the crew does marker shenanigans:

50 SS Outcasts Crew
Jack Daw + 5 Pool
- The Bigger They Are (1)
- Scout The Field (1)
- Survivalist (1)
- Drowning Injustice (0)
- Firing Squad Injustice (0)
Malifaux Child (2)
Ashes and Dust (13)
Hodgepodge Emissary (10)
- Conflux of the Damned (0)
- The Suffocating Injustice (0)
Jaakuna Ubume (6)
Big Jake (5)
Hodgepodge Effigy (4)
The Winged Plague (4)

Of note here will be Monkey Paw on Big Jake for a turn 4 Reactivate, Floral Bonnet on A&D for hilarity and Vitality Potion on the Effigy for the ultimate tanking experience (the amount of punishment this little thing can endure is astounding).

 

Scout the Field on Jack is just plain dirty: it gives him a 19" threat range Turn 1 for an almost guaranteed 8 damage on a model he charges (min 2, attach Firing squad; min 4 with +2 from Remember Injustice; or just stick with 6 damage and get your target double-cursed; armor is your nemesis here though). If they don't have free access to Focus, Jack will certainly survive some hurt, and then Jaakuna can lure him back home.

 

[Bathysphere]

I usually take Writhing Torment, Twist and Turn, and all three curses. The shenanigan bubble that Jack provides is simply too good to not utilize, especially since it's big enough to cover a large swath of the table. I like The Bigger They Are on other beatstick models over Jack, simply because I tend to use him as a support piece more than a beater. I'd rather use 3 AP to hand out curses, copy Tormented abilities, and position for maximum pain than pretend I'm playing a tankier Vik. Beater Daw is great, I just value his other abilities more. 
I usually take a mix of Tormented and other models, depending on the game. A Nurse and a Guilty are really my only auto-takes with Jack, but Jaakuna, A&D, Johan, the Malifaux Child, Lady Legia, and the Hanged all regularly see play. Giving out the Nurse's Meds 3-4 times a turn can be absolutely devastating, especially when the (0) off Twist and Turn can make her heal Jack to full at the end of his activation and thereby avoid the drawback of paralysis. 

[apes-ma]

9 minutes ago, VaudevillianVicious said:

I usually take Writhing Torment, Twist and Turn, and all three curses. The shenanigan bubble that Jack provides is simply too good to not utilize, especially since it's big enough to cover a large swath of the table. I like The Bigger They Are on other beatstick models over Jack, simply because I tend to use him as a support piece more than a beater. I'd rather use 3 AP to hand out curses, copy Tormented abilities, and position for maximum pain than pretend I'm playing a tankier Vik. Beater Daw is great, I just value his other abilities more. 
I usually take a mix of Tormented and other models, depending on the game. A Nurse and a Guilty are really my only auto-takes with Jack, but Jaakuna, A&D, Johan, the Malifaux Child, Lady Legia, and the Hanged all regularly see play. Giving out the Nurse's Meds 3-4 times a turn can be absolutely devastating, especially when the (0) off Twist and Turn can make her heal Jack to full at the end of his activation and thereby avoid the drawback of paralysis. 

I don't think that you can use Take Your Meds with Twist and Turn, since it says that the action can't take any triggers, unless I am remembering it wrong?

But yeah, I am with you on the tormented list I think. I hear via certain podcasts that the beater Jack is the way to go competitively, but I think the tormented play is much more fun and satisfying (for me at least). I could imagine switching to the beater mode for a more spread out strat though - as @Seadhna suggests! On that topic, I had not thought of Scout the Field on Jack before @Seadhna! I use it a lot with the Strongarm for the surprise charge, so I don't know why I didn't think of it!

[Bathysphere]

1 hour ago, apes-ma said:

I don't think that you can use Take Your Meds with Twist and Turn, since it says that the action can't take any triggers, unless I am remembering it wrong?

Right you are! I'm not sure how I missed that one...

[apes-ma]

1 hour ago, VaudevillianVicious said:

I usually take Writhing Torment, Twist and Turn, and all three curses. The shenanigan bubble that Jack provides is simply too good to not utilize, especially since it's big enough to cover a large swath of the table. I like The Bigger They Are on other beatstick models over Jack, simply because I tend to use him as a support piece more than a beater. I'd rather use 3 AP to hand out curses, copy Tormented abilities, and position for maximum pain than pretend I'm playing a tankier Vik. Beater Daw is great, I just value his other abilities more. 
I usually take a mix of Tormented and other models, depending on the game. A Nurse and a Guilty are really my only auto-takes with Jack, but Jaakuna, A&D, Johan, the Malifaux Child, Lady Legia, and the Hanged all regularly see play. Giving out the Nurse's Meds 3-4 times a turn can be absolutely devastating, especially when the (0) off Twist and Turn can make her heal Jack to full at the end of his activation and thereby avoid the drawback of paralysis. 

What do you use, if anything, to cycle/draw cards when playing the full tormented version? I find that there are so many target numbers (tormenting a guy or two to start with, then flipping/cheating for feel their torment/twist and turn) that sometimes it feels like my hand is a bit neutered from having to cheat in a high card to get off a feel their torment or something.

[Bathysphere]

15 hours ago, apes-ma said:

What do you use, if anything, to cycle/draw cards when playing the full tormented version? I find that there are so many target numbers (tormenting a guy or two to start with, then flipping/cheating for feel their torment/twist and turn) that sometimes it feels like my hand is a bit neutered from having to cheat in a high card to get off a feel their torment or something.

I rarely have too much of a problem with it. Hannah is a fairly common take for me, and Sue is a staple of my model pool, so they both help, but generally I just don't rely on using abilities with TNs like that too much. I try to make sure that one use of one ability won't make or break a game, so if I whiff a Twist and Turn I'm usually still okay. That being said I'm often fine with cheating high cards to torment things turn 1, since it's such an important piece of the Jack Daw puzzle.

I also rarely, if ever, target my opponents models with those abilities, so all I need is a 7 most of the time. Not the easiest thing in the world, but not terribly hard either. 

Finally, I try to judge when exactly I need to cheat and how little I can get away with cheating. I often let non-lethal hits go through that I *could* cheat to avoid so that I have that high card for killing something or saving a model from actually dying. The Nurse, and the Librarian to a lesser extent, are key to this because I can heal a model back up after a couple of hits. Johan once stared down Perdita in melee for three turns because I was able to heal him up from HtK repeatedly. 

[Cedar]

Has anyone tried Emissary with Jack? Additional curse is nice (especially since it increases damage suffered from drowning/firing squad injustice by half) and he is pretty mobile even without free push from Jack. Unfortunately his damage output is low, so hiring someone like Rusty/Taelor/Johan is probably a good option.  What do you guys think about Emissary in Jack's crew?

[PositronMike]

26 minutes ago, Cedar said:

Has anyone tried Emissary with Jack? Additional curse is nice (especially since it increases damage suffered from drowning/firing squad injustice by half) and he is pretty mobile even without free push from Jack. Unfortunately his damage output is low, so hiring someone like Rusty/Taelor/Johan is probably a good option.  What do you guys think about Emissary in Jack's crew?

I really like the Emissary with Jack. The curse is really nice and can cause lots of trouble for an already activated model as they take damage for cheating. If you put the curse on someone who has activated and then attack them it becomes very effective as if they cheat they take damage and if they don't you are more likely to hit them. 

He also helps out in the speed department as he is quite fast due to his 0 and then Jack can use him as a focal point to pull other models in the crew up the board. 

 

[Fenriel]

Jack Daw - Wave 5 upgrades - Discuss!

First impressions - Both of them are situational but with slots at a premium I'm not 100% sure either are mandatory. 

 

[Memnaelar]

On 8/21/2017 at 7:56 AM, Fenriel said:

Jack Daw - Wave 5 upgrades - Discuss!

First impressions - Both of them are situational but with slots at a premium I'm not 100% sure either are mandatory. 

 

Basic interesting question that springs to mind:

Can you use Growing Injustice to attach the Emissary's Curse?  If so, I think that increases its viability considerably.  I didn't see anything in the text that prohibits that.  It's an unattached Curse upgrade.  I could see wanting to swap that in enough to take this upgrade (and no longer take the Emissary)

[Fenriel]

From all I've read, yes you could attach the emissary curse. But upgrade slots are at a premium. I usually take one if not both of his main upgrades and with the recent influx of heavy minions, I don't like leaving his minions curse out. Maybe if I tried a beater Daw setup. With how many things have positive flips these days, I'm starting to feel Daw is naked without alot of terrain or survivalist. (Looking at your Ironsides - Gunline ouch)

More I look at them, I'm a bit disappointed with both. I need to give them a few games but I don't forsee taking either very often. Interesting Schemes & Stones seemed to have the same idea. 

 

[Nukemouse]

Twist and Turn can copy the bury action on Talos. At 7 WP that can be pretty tough to escape i suppose. Jack doesn't get to do the heal, but that means he doesn't take the damage either. I cant think of anything in outcast to boost his wp but jack could torment the talos first turn with a guilty, then if two enemies are in range of a nurse try and give both of them "downers" for armor 2 and to all flips. Nurse accomplices to jack who obeys talos into burying one of the two targets whilst he copies the bury to get the other one. It would probably require you stone for cards or hold onto some high ones from the first turn and it requires an aggressive opponent but you can activate your talos earlier in the turn and pull this combo off towards the end of turn 2 after some models have charged your crew. In practice it is probably too costly to do this combo but hey copying the bury is still pretty strong, its like getting a second talos!

[apes-ma]

On 02/09/2017 at 1:50 AM, Nukemouse said:

Twist and Turn can copy the bury action on Talos. At 7 WP that can be pretty tough to escape i suppose. Jack doesn't get to do the heal, but that means he doesn't take the damage either. I cant think of anything in outcast to boost his wp but jack could torment the talos first turn with a guilty, then if two enemies are in range of a nurse try and give both of them "downers" for armor 2 and to all flips. Nurse accomplices to jack who obeys talos into burying one of the two targets whilst he copies the bury to get the other one. It would probably require you stone for cards or hold onto some high ones from the first turn and it requires an aggressive opponent but you can activate your talos earlier in the turn and pull this combo off towards the end of turn 2 after some models have charged your crew. In practice it is probably too costly to do this combo but hey copying the bury is still pretty strong, its like getting a second talos!

Whilst I agree that it's probably too costly, this seems like a lot of fun! I can't wait to try it out... Also I love it when Downers become particularly useful!